Joy and Austin 14: Pregnant with Their First

[tabitha2]

Bumps just make think of  Having measles. 

Plus by the time you it nine months that bump is long gone and you got a damn mountain range when you count your abdomen and boobs. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

5 minutes ago, hasunah said:

I also can't stand tabloid expressions like "flaunting her bump" or "dressing her bump" . Makes it sound like there is no person involved, just an occupied uterus on legs 

To be fair, a walking uterus is how most fundie women are viewed within their community.

[TatiFish9]

I think Joy gained back her pre-wedding weight. Her announcement picture stated eating for 2. I think she's chomping down on top of pregnancy. 

I don't think she and Austin had sex before marriage. Although, we know they were front hugging and getting close often. 

 

Now Jill and Derrick? I have always suspected them having at least one premarital slip up, not because they were pregnant right away but because ,they had guilt written all over their faces when they announced. They were nervous as everything. However when it's that close in time it's difficult to pinpoint. These girls are extremely young. They've reportedly never used birth control and they've come from fertile genes. I think it's natural for them to get pregnant right away. Especially, if they're making up for lost time once they're married. Plus Joy and Austin had a month long honeymoon or something. Makes sense. 

[Rachel333]

13 minutes ago, hasunah said:

I also can't stand tabloid expressions like "flaunting her bump" or "dressing her bump" . Makes it sound like there is no person involved, just an occupied uterus on legs 

Tabloid headlines are awful and I'm pretty sure they're responsible for bringing "bump" into everyday parlance. There was a pretty bad example this year when Amal Clooney visited London and all the headlines were about her "baby bump." For example, Amal Clooney Showcases Her Baby Bump in a Pink Dress and Overcoat Ahead of U.N. Visit from People, or Time's tweet, "Amal Clooney shows off her baby bump at the United Nations." She was in London because she's a lawyer and was speaking to the U.N. about ISIS's genocide of Yazidis, but tabloids just wanted to talk about her "baby bump."

[nickelodeon]

@Rachel333 An interesting book on this same subject came out a year or two ago: Renee Ann Cramer's Pregnant With The Stars: Watching and Wanting the Celebrity Baby Bump. IIRC it had some neat discussion of the way the media talks about "the bump." (It really should've had a chapter on Duggar babywatches though...)

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

Now Jill and Derrick? I have always suspected them having at least one premarital slip up, not because they were pregnant right away but because ,they had guilt written all over their faces when they announced. They were nervous as everything.

I didn't read them that way at all. Of course they were nervous and probably embarrassed, I've seen a lot of other conservative religious people who waited to have sex till they were married express the same embarrassment when announcing a pregnancy. It's like announcing to the world and their families, "Hey, we had sex!" Plus Jill was the first Duggar daughter to get pregnant. That's a lot of pressure and a pretty glaring spotlight to be under.

[TatiFish9]

@singsingsing you are most likely right, but I never saw it that way. The energy I got from them and the awkwardness from the parentals-rang guilty to me. I have felt this way from the very beginning. My view has not wavered over time like several of my other ideas on them. I don't promote it as truth, though. Just my perception of things. I do not sense this with Joy and Austin. They both seems to be deep in the fundie kool aid, slurping it up. Yet premarital liaison may be true. Who knows.

[Greendoor]

I carried huge, was in maternity clothes at 8 weeks.  I had one child 7lbs 12 oz.  She is going to have this March 8or 9th, 2018.  Boy Wesley Austin.  

[Fundie Bunny]

3 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

@singsingsing you are most likely right, but I never saw it that way. The energy I got from them and the awkwardness from the parentals-rang guilty to me. I have felt this way from the very beginning. My view has not wavered over time like several of my other ideas on them. I don't promote it as truth, though. Just my perception of things. I do not sense this with Joy and Austin. They both seems to be deep in the fundie kool aid, slurping it up. Yet premarital liaison may be true. Who knows.

I see what you mean, but there's just no way Izzy was concieved before marriage. He would have been 4 weeks overdue if it had happened that way

[TatiFish9]

5 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

I see what you mean, but there's just no way Izzy was concieved before marriage. He would have been 4 weeks overdue if it had happened that way

In a previous post I said:

"I have always suspected them having at least one premarital slip up, ****not because they were pregnant right away**** but because ,they had guilt written all over their faces when they announced." 

Israel could have very well been conceived inside marriage, but Jill and Derrick were anxious/fearful/nervous of the news they had to report to Jill's wackadoodle parents. I suspect it was because they had sex pretty close to their wedding date. They were not sure if Israel was a product of that or their happy honeymoon time. Because they announced very early on, I believe there was some level uncertainty there. Otherwise, nothing else to be nervous about telling your family. They were married at that point. Their sex was legal. What difference does it make unless there is something to fret over - like the accuracy of date.s

 

With that said, Israel was born on April 6 2015. They were married on June 21, 2014. There are 289 days between these date. 280 days is a full term pregnancy.  As we know, a woman can go 14 days past term and still be considered in the safety zone. Jill was not under direct doctor's care. Therefore no one to push her to induce earlier.

If premarsex occurred outside of an expected fertile window before the wedding, but pregnancy occurred before the next period, there would be fear that calculating Jill got the dates incorrect.

Again, I am most likely wrong, but I would still put money on it.

[Fundie Bunny]

280 days are 40 weeks, wich is a full term pregnancy counting from the last period, so for those first two weeks of pregnancy you're not actually pregnant. And of course they were nervous, as said by various people that have grown in that kind of culture, it's difficult to forget the previous 20 years of your life in wich you've been told sew is wrong and shameful, and if you do it you're not pure anymore. I remember reading an essay in patheos or something about a girl and how she felt ashamed the weeks after her wedding because her dentity was no longer of the pure virginal girl that had honored the lord by waiting, and she was just another married lady

[HarleyQuinn]

I don't think any Duggarlings had premarital hook ups. Especially the Duhlards, I still remember Jill getting all defensive and saying "that wouldn't be good testimony" if they eloped.

If anyone would've pushed for that, I think it would've been Jinjer, just because Jeremy would be eager with his paper doll wife. 

[TatiFish9]

@Fundie Bunny the due date is based off last period *reported*. It is not 100% accurate for when conception actually occured. I also stated that I am not insisting that Izzy was actually conceived before marriage. Recently, the family reported that Jill and Derrick won the PDA award. It was a unanimous comment. That does not sound like a couple that is nervous about their purity after marriage. I was also raised in heavy purity culture. It's a nightmare for those who want to explore their sexuality. Still many do. 

My point is a suspicion that is covered by science. It is possible that Israel was conceived prior to marriage. It is possible that Jill fudged the dates. And it is possible that she was overdue without pressure to induce. But I am not saying she actually did, just that I suspect she did and I stand by my suspicions. I understand others do not believe it. Yet, we believe Joy is farther along based on a bump when we have no accurate information or dates? Odd.

@HarleyQuinn Like Jeremy, Derrick had experiences outside of Jill that were non pure and non fundie. During the after show when asked how many of the couples followed their courtship rules, all the married couples looked off. Only Joy jumped in explaining the front hug that was caught on camera . She then admitted she did not know the cameras were there. Austin did. He tried to slyly convert the front hug into a side hug. Eventually, Ben goes on this 'round the way response that rules were broken. Of course Jill and Derrick were not in attendance, but the silent avoidance shows that these uber courting rules are apart of a brand. The Bates were the same way until they figured out that it was better for them to brand themselves as the down-to-earth fundie family. Suddenly, they're looking mighty fundie-lite.  We see a whole lot of physical contact between pre-courters, courters and engaged alike.

Living "pure" is challenging - as several of the Duggars have already admitted, especially with someone who has outside experiences. Look a Zach Bates and Whittney. She came from some other brand of Christianity. She and Zach admitted they kissed before marriage. Of course. It really takes two completely brain washed individuals to pull it off, if the desire is not truly their own. Anyhow,  the Duggars are full of it.  They can fool some of the people, some of the time. But they can not fool all of the people, all of the time. Yet, after all that has happened with Josh they're still fooling people anyhow. My opinion.

[Fjrocks]

  I have never fully understood these "who had sex before marriage or not" debates.  Now a hugging or kissing debate, I can easily be compelled.  Hugs and kisses develop far earlier in life, we are showered with them from birth. They  are so natural and part of our whole  human experience. People hug and kiss in church services all the time!  How can it be portrayed as evil? 

    Hugs and kisses are easily snuck in.  Hand a young buddy a Twix bar and walk behind them while they are distracted.

   In general, I think it is far more difficult to convince the kids and especially their outside SOs that hugs and kisses are evil because it goes against human experience. My grandma gives me big kisses all the time.  I will miss them when she is gone. I have heart melting little nieces and I pick them up and pepper them with kisses and hugs. There is also nothing like an airport hug of a long missed friend. 

  I love to stop and hug my BF.  A big bear hug feels wonderful. It is so good for the soul.  

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

My point is a suspicion that is covered by science. It is possible that Israel was conceived prior to marriage. It is possible that Jill fudged the dates. And it is possible that she was overdue without pressure to induce.

Uh... first of all, while it may be scientifically possible for Jill to have conceived prior to her marriage and to have given birth when she did, it's extremely unlikely. She would have been at least a month overdue. At least.

Secondly, and more importantly, Jill was very anxious to let everyone know that she had two due dates: March 24, and April 4. If she were eaten up by guilt and shame and fear because she'd been having sex before marriage and thought she might have conceived prior to her wedding, why on earth would she have been priming everyone to expect her to go late? 

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

Yet, we believe Joy is farther along based on a bump when we have no accurate information or dates? Odd.

Huh? Who is 'we'? A small number of people have suggested that, and a huge number have argued against it. 

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

Like Jeremy, Derrick had experiences outside of Jill that were non pure and non fundie.

If you're specifically referring to sex, no. We don't know that. In fact, we don't even know that Jeremy wasn't a virgin when he married. Sure, we can probably safely guess that there's a good chance he wasn't, but Derick is not comparable. For all we know, Derick was a virgin. For all we know, Derick had never kissed a girl or had a girlfriend, either. We don't know.

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

Living "pure" is challenging - as several of the Duggars have already admitted, especially with someone who has outside experiences.

Yeah, it's challenging when 'living pure' means 'no front hugs' and 'no holding hands' and 'no thinking sexy thoughts about each other', which is what they're actually talking about in those interviews. Waiting until marriage to have sex actually isn't all that difficult when your engagement is 2 months long and you really believe it's the right thing to do. Plus, you know they exaggerate how difficult it all is to make themselves look super holy for 'managing' to wait, right?

Can we get rid of this meme about waiting for marriage being sooooo impossible, anyway? Like, what the hell? It's not impossible. People do it all the time. People who hug, kiss, make out, and spend copious amounts of time alone together, and have much longer relationships and engagements than the Duggars, manage to wait. It's not this HUGE deal that people make it out to be. People who insist it's next to impossible are just as bad as the fundies, because it's playing into this bullshit narrative that people can't control their sexual urges. I see nothing praiseworthy about waiting for marriage (though I respect people's choice to do so) - but it's not even close to impossible... especially when you're a freaking Duggar!

[AprilQuilt]

On 15/09/2017 at 9:28 AM, VBOY9977 said:

She absolutely doesn't look in her 7th month to me... more like 4th month, given her body type + height. But she is growing really fast though, I wonder how it feels for her. It must be kinda hard for her because she never seemed too comfortable with her body to me, and now her body is changing a whole lot. I hope it's not hitting her too hard

My first post here after lurking for years. Finally I've been drawn out. This might be dangerous.

Ever since seeing Joy's pregnancy photo I've had the sense that maybe pregnancy makes her feel *better* about her body. I'm built like her - short, short-waisted and naturally on the curvier side (not a euphemism for fat. Even at my slimmest I guess I'm built more stocky.)

Being pregnant felt good to me in that for the first time in my adult life I didn't feel I had to apologise for my body: it was doing what it was meant to do, looking how it was meant to look. I wasn't *meant* to have a flat stomach, or small boobs: voluptuous and fecund and feminine was exactly what I was meant to be.

A friend of mine who always had a v disordered, self-loathing relationship with her body and food - the sort of person who always judged her own worth by how much she weighed/how successful her current diet was - really embraced pregnancy, and posted millions of side-on-in-the-bathroom-mirror bump pics for the same reason. It was like she had permission to have a belly at long last.

I'm not saying this is what's going on in Joy's head necessarily, but if she has ever felt self-conscious about her body, or compared herself unfavourably to her sisters (without reason IMHO, she's a beautiful young woman), marriage and pregnancy might be quite validating for her. As disorientating as pregnancy can be, it gives her permission to be proud of her body, and celebrate what it can do. Plus if she's having good sex and chemistry with Austin, and sees her body as desirable to him, she might also be more comfortable in her own skin. 

Anyway, she's hit the honeymoon baby jackpot. She's ACHIEVED. Even if she feels sick as a dog, that belly's a badge of honour.

These are merely my thoughts, which have played on my mind since her announcement.

[TatiFish9]

These kids are not chaperoned all the time.  Even if they are, it is impossible and exhausting to watch two adults during 24 hours of every day ,until they marry, especially in a large family.  Opportunity presents itself in the most unlikely of places. I'd like to think this is even more so true the closer a couple gets to the wedding date. Standards are more lax then.

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

Anyway, she's hit the honeymoon baby jackpot. She's ACHIEVED. Even if she feels sick as a dog, that belly's a badge of honour.

Exactly! God blessed her right away. A honeymoon baby is like a huge badge of honour to these people, it's like carrying around a neon sign that says, "GOD LOVES US AND THINKS WE'RE GREAT!" She's proud that she was blessed enough to be chosen by a godly man as a wife at the young age of 19 (youngest of all her sisters!) and she's proud that she was blessed by God immediately with a baby. It's a huge validation for her.

[Audrey2]

@AprilQuilt Welcome to our board. I'm so glad you're here.

I think you've raised some great points about Joy. In addition, I think her position in the family is a bit difficult- not as one of the 4 Super Sister Moms, but not in the cohort of the youngest girls either. While I think this gave her a little more childhood, sandwiched among all of the boys, I can see her secretly looking to her older sisters as the way to achieve Christian Womanhood and falling short. I know how hard it is when your body wants to do one thing, yet society says that is less attractive and to be attractive you must be slim. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to try to be in a Fundie family and live up to 4 beautiful older sisters. I'm really glad to see Joy coming into her own and embracing her body. I think Joy looks beautiful.

[Palimpsest]

53 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Yet, we believe Joy is farther along based on a bump when we have no accurate information or dates?

No *we* don't.  I think that whole discussion is ridiculous.  As are your far fetched suspicions about Jill and Derrick.  

7 minutes ago, Fjrocks said:

  I have never fully understood these "who had sex before marriage or not" debates.

Neither do I.  Or why some people seem so obsessed by the notion.  This is a family that has been brainwashed into saving the first kiss for marriage and are chaperoned to boot.  

5 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

These kids are not chaperoned all the time.  Even if they are, it is impossible and exhausting to watch two adults during 24 hours of every day ,until they marry, especially in a large family.

Especially in a large family like the Duggars, it is almost impossible for the girls to get free from a sibling.  The Duggar house has been designed so that there are few private spaces.  Deliberately so.  

The chances that anyone had a quick boink before the wedding are so slim they are non-existent.  Let it go.

I can't find it again, but I got a big laugh out of someone claiming to know Austin's Dad left his son and Joy unchaperoned because she saw it on TeeVee.  Someone else had to point out that they were left "alone" with the entire film crew.  And Sound Man Jim is almost as Extreme Fundie as Jim Bob. 

[Lurky]

14 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

I'd like to think this is even more so true the closer a couple gets to the wedding date. Standards are more lax then.

Do you have any evidence of this?  The whole reason the engagements are shorter than the average in Duggarland is because it's seen as a very dangerous time.  There are some things they're allowed to do, like sidehugs, but I've never seen any evidence that they're allowed to be alone together.

And I do wonder where you think they'd be having the sex.  I know in a normal life, there are times parents are out of the house, and cars, and parks and bushes, but let's take that apart for a moment.

The TTH is a big house, but it's deliberately open plan, with only a couple of spaces that aren't private, like the Prayer Closet, the laundry room and pantry, and I guess the younger children's playroom - and people are in and out of these ALL the time. 

So maybe the garden?  It's not especially bushy, and the "treehouse" would be SUPER risky.  Not to mention, if they were gone for even 15 minutes alone, that's a BIG deal.  And they aren't allowed on trips away from the house alone together. 

But ultimately, even if, I dunno, they could manage to sneak away to the pantry, I don't buy that a Duggar would be able to go from 0-60 for a quickie.  They literally get yelled at for front-hugging, so being able to have someone touch their genitalia?  It's a big deal for most people, even in the context of kissing and fooling around before sex.  I can't even imagine my "first time" in the context of a desperate quickie really hoping no one would walk in on me, and I'm not a Fundy raised with this massive shame culture.

Plus, I'm totally on the side of "it's not THAT hard to not have sex".  I was a super horny teen, fooling around with my boyfriend when I was 16, but I was very sure didn't want to have sex before I was 17 at least.  So I didn't! I used to do a ton of working with kids, and eg go away on adventure weekends with kids and my partner of the time, and I was horny as hell, but it was incredibly easy to not have sex in an inappropriate place. 

ETA Co-signing @Palimpsest that when they look like they're alone on TV, of course they're not!  Even when they're proposing, they have an accountability partner and a ton of camera crew! 

[TatiFish9]

@singsingsing no where did I say being abstinent is impossible. I did not insinuate it either. I said it was challenging, a direct quote for the Duggars themselves. Stop it, please. We don't have to agree but do not put words in my post. It is very well possible that Jill did have sex before marriage. That is my point of view. That does not change whether Israel was conceived then or not. Due dates are based on patient reports. 

Five years ago, few people would believe Josh was sleeping with a sex worker. I long since suspected he was living a double life based on his clammy skin. I could tell he was living an unhealthy lifestyle. I had another fan call me insane to suggest it.  I was shot down with "he is a jerk and hate filled, but he is fundie and brainwashed by his parents ." Well we see how that turned out.

I want to point out that just like it is possible for Jill to have had sex before marriage, it is also possible and likely that she did not as well. But I think she did.

[Carm_88]

15 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

These kids are not chaperoned all the time.  Even if they are, it is impossible and exhausting to watch two adults during 24 hours of every day ,until they marry, especially in a large family. 

Have you ever been a part of a large family gathering? That's what the Duggar house is like 24/7. There is no such thing as privacy and the strictness of the Duggar rules mean those kids know that they have to watch who they are chaperoning. 

[The Wanderer]

I find the idea that any of the Duggar girls had premarital sex absolutely ridiculous. These girls were raised to believe that they must save their first kiss for marriage and must abide by barbaric courtship rules and a husband that is hand-picked by JB. While it's possible for a guy who isn't quite as like-minded as the family to slip through the cracks (i.e. Jeremy), I seriously doubt any of the Duggar daughters could have sex before marriage even if they wanted to.

[singsingsing]

9 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

no where did I say being abstinent is impossible. I did not insinuate it either. I said it was challenging, a direct quote for the Duggars themselves. Stop it, please. We don't have to agree but do not put words in my post.

Oh brother. Hyperbole. Nuance. I was speaking more generally rather than specifically criticizing you in particular. I'm sorry if I inadvertently attributed words to you that you neither said nor meant, as that was not my intention. The good news is that people can very easily read your posts and see your actual words, so I wouldn't be overly concerned.

 

11 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

That does not change whether Israel was conceived then or not. Due dates are based on patient reports. 

I mean... are you sure you understand what you're saying? Because you're claiming that you can tell that Jill and Derick did the deed before marriage because they appeared nervous and guilty while announcing their pregnancy, so they must have thought there was a decent chance they conceived before marriage. But based on Jill's due date and when she actually gave birth, that's next to impossible, and she would know that. So... your thesis kind of falls apart there, I'm afraid.

 

13 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Five years ago, few people would believe Josh was sleeping with a sex worker. I long since suspected he was living a double life based on his clammy skin. I could tell he was living an unhealthy lifestyle. I had another fan call me insane to suggest it.  I was shot down with "he is a jerk and hate filled, but he is fundie and brainwashed by his parents ." Well we see how that turned out.

Oh boy. First, there's no proof whatsoever that Josh was sleeping with a sex worker. Second... wow. Good for you for correctly guessing that Josh was leading a double life based on his clammy skin. That's... really something. You clearly have flawless, superhuman intuition about the Duggars and there's no point ever arguing with you again. I'm going to make a note that @TatiFish9 is a proven Duggar psychic to be sure that no one contradicts your expertise in the future.