Joy and Austin 14: Pregnant with Their First

[Palimpsest]

@Snarkle Motion, no.  CPS was never involved.  That is why I linked to the timeline for you.  

I never worked for CPS but we have a few members here who did.  I worked for APS - Protective services for vulnerable (disabled) adults and seniors.  

So nothing much surprises me about protective services work, or how it is perceived by the public.  Usually negatively, because confidentiality requirements prevent discussion of all cases by PS, unless they end up in court. CPS gets a particularly bum rap, IMO.  There are many good people doing good work in CPS but they never get any credit for it.

The original idea behind protective services is:  not all abuse reaches criminal levels (as defined by law), but social services can intervene and ameliorate many negative situations through linking the family to needed social services.  If CPS uncovers criminal levels of abuse then it works with LE and the court system as the case is prosecuted, and continues to link the victims with services to help them.  

So in this case, the earlier the sexual abuse had been reported to CPS, the more preventive measures could have been taken, and might actually have worked before it (apparently) reached criminal levels.  Also, CPS records, with their confidentiality requirements, would not have been vulnerable to a FOIA request.  The victims' privacy would have been protected .  Both police and courts records are public record - and can be requested because of the FOIA. 

Here's the timeline, and the missed opportunities, and errors that approach criminal levels again..  I'll put it under a spoiler because it is long.

Spoiler

 

Josh started molesting his sisters in March 2002.  There were several incidents over the course of a year that the Duggars failed to address properly.  And the molestation seemed to be escalating from touching sleeping sisters to groping them while they were awake.  At this point the Duggars should have asked for professional help - and a mandated reporter would have informed CPS.

In March 2003, JB took this to his (then) church elders.  Pastors are mandated reporters.  They discussed it, and apparently it was discussed by the whole church community. The sisters were shamed before the church.  No one reported to CPS.

The clock on the three year (far too short) Statute of Limitations starts running on the date of the last molestation known:  March, 2003.

The church solution was to send Josh to a "friend" who was renovating an IBLP building in Little Rock.  He stayed there until July and returned home "cured."  He met with a corrupt police officer in an attempt to scare him straight.  That police officer (another mandated reporter) also failed to report - and is now serving 56 years in prison on child pornography charges.  Not a coincidence, I think.  

Now Josh is back in the home, the Duggars *may* have  instituted a basic common sense plan to keep Josh away from the girls.  It was the least they could do.  That is not an indicator of CPS involvement.

2005 - The Duggars go on TV.  "Concerned Mom" starts spreading vague rumors.  Mentioning no names but the clues to the Duggars are there.  Sin in the camp is a weird term.

2006 - The Oprah show receives an email and FINALLY reports the sexual assault information.

The report is sent straight to the Police Child Protection Agency.  Yes, it by-passed CPS probably because this is immediately seen as criminal level abuse, the Duggar parents have obviously been protecting Josh, and this is a high profile case.  The police, and a social services agency sub-contracted by the police, conduct forensic interviews with the siblings and parents.  The family is FINALLY referred for professional counselling.  JB and Michelle have to cooperate with the sisters getting secular counseling although I bet the kicked evey step of the way.

Josh (with his parents' support) refuses to cooperate with the investigation. The Statute of Limitations has run out.  He cannot be prosecuted.  He receives no professional counselling (that we know of.)  He becomes the cheating asshole we see today.

2007 - The repulsive "Alice" decides to start gossiping. She just wanted to bring down the Duggars with no thought for the victims. And then In Touch does the FOIA request in 2015 and all hell breaks loose.

 

My sympathies are with the Duggar sisters, although I don't think they will win their court case. Morally, I don't think their records should have been released because the redactions did not protect their privacy.  Legally, I think the FOIA did force the police to release those records.  I think there should be legislative change.

While the world and FJ loved all those juicy details taking down the Duggars, I wish the story had not come out - unless or until the Duggar sisters were willing to talk themselved.

Josh, Ashley Maddison, and his cheating - I'm all for that stuff being public.

On 9/14/2017 at 9:36 AM, Snarkle Motion said:

My point about "gossip" being recourse was more for rape victims, particularly teenagers and those on college campus. The majority of times there is not enough info to make a determination for legal action or action by the school but I definitely believe the victim has a right to tell others what happened, at the perpetrators expense, and other people can spread this info (aka "gossip") to other people. The truth is that the potential damage these rumors have for people is actually minimal, it tends not to impact people's lives as much as you think, but can help others come forward and protect potential victims. People are actually more likely to dismiss the claims or give the perpetrator the benefit of the doubt. There's also emerging evidence that lots of people had heard reports about Sandusky but it wasn't until he was literally caught in act that anything happened. 

This is a different question altogether and much under debate at the moment.  I don't disagree with you about the need to spread the word about a known predator, but I still think people should still be very careful.  First hand knowledge is one thing; third hand malicious rumor-mongering is another.  People have been wrongly accused.  And the damage to those innocent people can be enormous.  Think about it.

There is solid evidence that several people actually witnessed Sandusky assaulting boys and never reported it to the authorities.  Some of them were uncovered in the investigation.  They have their own consciences to deal with, but if there is a hell I hope they rot there.

[WhoompThereItIs]

On 9/14/2017 at 9:12 AM, SassyPants said:

How would you verbally acknowledge different body types for a person who is on the larger, thicker size?  

Growing up I always heard the term big-boned 

[SorenaJ]

If Joy got pregnant on her wedding night, she would be 18 weeks pregnant today. She does look a wee bit big, yeah, but the Duggars always have big babies. 

[VBOY9977]

55 minutes ago, 12 Hungry Safety Pins said:

Why not? People with glasses exist! And without glasses, they can't see. Not all eyes are big on contact lenses, either! Good for Joy, I say!

I know I wear glasses lol! But I always take them off for pictures because I don't like the light reflecting off of them as I think it makes the pictures look weird... It's just a pet peeve of mine I guess

it was also interesting to me because she's never worn them in other wedding before

[Gillyweed]

Just now, VBOY9977 said:

I know I wear glasses lol! But I always take them off for pictures because I don't like the light reflecting off of them... It's just a pet peeve of mine I guess

I'm like the opposite lol. I never wear my glasses, but do for pictures because it corrects my lazy eye. 

[MamaJunebug]

18 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

..,,.The sisters were shamed before the church.  ....

We know this for a fact?  Can I please have link if so?  Not disbelieving, just want to read it with my own astonished eyes.  Thank you anyone. 

[Palimpsest]

19 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

We know this for a fact? 

Yep.  It is in the police records of interviews with JB and Michelle.  They admit that it was never reported because they were dealing with issue privately with their church.

Also a lot hinges on the clock ticking on the Statute of Limitations.  Josh's actions were not reported to the proper authorities (LE or CPS) prior to 2006, three years after they occurred.

Looking at the timeline March 2003 (last admitted incident) to March 2006 - he missed prosecution by a matter of mere days.  An official always documented by CPS or LE (unless the "friend" in LE is a child pornographer) report of abuse stops that clock.  So it was never reported by any of the (many) people who knew about it -  prior to Oprah.

AR really needs to lengthen the SOL on sexual assault.  

ETA:  Did you mean the shaming? 

The claim that the girls were shamed by the church was either from Alice or Concerned Mom.  It is rather obvious in retrospect that she (or they) were church members with a big grudge against the family. 

[Knight of Ni]

I thought by the time they had their tv specials they were doing home church. Maybe that's a decision they made because the church wanted to see some type of punishment/treatment for Josh and treatment for the victims.

[Carm_88]

Oh come on guys, I heard a rumour that Joy's bump is so big because she's have quads. She wants to get to 20 in as few pregnancies as possible. #blessed. 

/heavy on the sarcasm.  

[AtlanticTug]

7 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Oh come on guys, I heard a rumour that Joy's bump is so big because she's have quads. She wants to get to 20 in as few pregnancies as possible. #blessed. 

/heavy on the sarcasm.  

I would actually love it if she had triplets and lapped her sisters in one go hahaha.

[Rachel333]

Wow, I thought Jill carried big, but Joy is way bigger. She definitely looks bigger than Jill did at Jessa's wedding.

[Palimpsest]

12 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

I thought by the time they had their tv specials they were doing home church. Maybe that's a decision they made because the church wanted to see some type of punishment/treatment for Josh and treatment for the victims.

If the church had wanted to see some type of legal punishment or professional treatment then it would have reported the abuse in 2003.

It appears the elders were fully on board with sending Josh to hard labor at an IBLP building.  The "letter found in the book" was finally reported, or provided to authorities, after Oprah blew the whistle.  It apparently documented the decisions made with the church elders to send Josh away.

No member of the church reported to the authorities prior to 2006.  Concerned Mom gossiped on the internet and was obviously not happy with the outcome.

I can't remember when the Duggars started to home church with JB as "Pastor."  It could have been embarrassment after 2003 but before the first special.

[Snarkle Motion]

@Palimpsest each state is different, but I've made dozens of CPS reports. And I get a follow up letter several weeks (or months) later telling me the outcome. I don't have the exact language at hand but it's something like investigation closed, forwarded to law enforcement, etc. Rarely is action taken.

I remember reading DHS was involved in the case. I googled it and this site suggests Josh took them to court to challenge the findings? I don't understand the process exactly but it absolutely suggests DHS was involved prior to 2008.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/josh-duggar-reportedly-sued-arkansas-human-services-after-they-investigated-molestation/

[cascarones]

I'm a little bit behind Joy, depending on the time of day I look normal, disproportional like an emaciated barbie doll, like I haven't slept in weeks, or farther along than I am. Water retention and bloat make huge differences, swallowing air after being sick certainly doesn't help.  I've got no snark for the belly pose, I'm finding my hand resting there more often than not, encouraging the contents to stay.

It's messing with my head, this weigh yourself to make sure you're not getting dehydrated advice.

[Knight of Ni]

Aren't members of the clergy mandated reporters? I know that many fundamentalist churches don't report but shouldn't there be some legal consequences for them for not reporting?

[Bad Wolf]

I'm glad Joy is wearing glasses. I remember when she was driving Jenni, and wasn't wearing them because she didn't like them. Another Duggar safety fail.

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

ETA:  Did you mean the shaming? 

The claim that the girls were shamed by the church was either from Alice or Concerned Mom.  It is rather obvious in retrospect that she (or they) were church members with a big grudge against the family. 

Right, I was asking about the shaming. Astounding -- the girls were around  middle-school age(s) and were shamed in front of others for being groped and God-knows-what by their brother?

I try to sound genteel most of the time, but in this case I'll say it:  The Duggar parents -- what sick fucks!

[Snarkle Motion]

@Palimpsest I am disappointed in some of your tone in your most recent comments. What you are saying also does not appear to be true.

2007 - The repulsive "Alice" decides to start gossiping. She just wanted to bring down the Duggars with no thought for the victims. And then In Touch does the FOIA request in 2015 and all hell breaks loose.

Based on the timeline of the lawsuit Josh brought against DHS challenging their ruling/finding, I suspect that Alice "gossiped" because of her frustration that the system had failed these girls. You have no evidence of her motives. She may have actually been someone who was involved in the case and had to remain anonymous to protect her job and avoid legal prosecution. I think it's telling that Alice knew the family had to report to DHS every 6 months, that's something very specific that leads me to believe she had knowledge of the case and actually had well intentioned motives for coming forward.

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Right, I was asking about the shaming.

I don't consider the source necessarily reliable (although she was right about many things), but it is classic Gothardism and that makes the story very credible to me.

Shamed for having attracted the attention of a male and leading him into sin - it is always the woman's (or tiny little girl's) fault.

Sick fucks indeed. 

[Iamtheway]

2 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

I know I wear glasses lol! But I always take them off for pictures because I don't like the light reflecting off of them as I think it makes the pictures look weird... It's just a pet peeve of mine I guess

it was also interesting to me because she's never worn them in other wedding before

I hate how I look without my glasses. I look weird and naked and can't see anything. I only take them of if someone makes me. Like the passport people. Now I look like someone else in my passport. But way better then the drugged, homeless lady I looked like in my old passport photo. That camera is harsh!

[Snarkle Motion]

Maybe I should take my comments to another forum? But I do want to add my 2 cents.

My rule regarding gossip is to be skeptical, give equal weight to both sides, unless it involves domestic violence, sexual assault, or molestation. Then I always default to believing the side of the victim because society is programmed to dismiss them and protect the perpetrator. I even catch myself at times doubting reports of abuse or domestic violence and have to mentally correct myself.

I completely understand the rules of the site and the need to limit gossip due to tabloids picking up the story and potential damage to the site's integrity/reputation.

But I want to leave you with a thought, what if no one had gossiped about Josh. Would we know what we know now? And if we had actually looked into the claims of the internet commenters instead of outright dismissing them and refusing to spread them, would an appropriate person thought to make an FOIA request sooner? Would TLC have reconsidered their support of the Duggars given the allegations were true?  Maybe nothing would be different but I think it's worth consideration.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

I think Joy looks cute in her glasses.

[apandaaries]

 

it was also interesting to me because she's never worn them in other wedding before

She's never been pregnant and in a wedding Before either. Things that are fine when not pregnant can become very irritating when one is with child.

 

Oops. Sorry about the double post. Tapa glitch, I guess.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, WhoompThereItIs said:

Growing up I always heard the term big-boned 

Spoiler

 

[Jenn The Heathen]

Yes, Joy is baking a big ole Duggar baby, but what I really want to talk about is Jana's fabulous shoes!