John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?

[GreyhoundFan]

Jennifer Rubin's take: "We’re down to Mattis, I suppose"

Spoiler

Republicans and Democrats alike have been deluding themselves for some time about White House Chief of Staff John F. Kelly. They were certain that Kelly was a “grown-up” who understood that the president the American people elected was hobbled — morally, intellectually, temperamentally — and it was Kelly’s job to steer the ship of state away from the rocks. He wouldn’t lie to the American people as President Trump did, these Kelly fans believed.

Recognition is now sinking in that Kelly is not so different than all the other politicians and officials who come in contact with Trump. To serve him requires suspension of integrity, and therefore those who serve become morally corrupted. (The sole exception to this seems to be Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, who from day one simply refused to act as Trump’s political flack.) One can hear a palpable sense of sadness after last week’s events, a sense of disillusionment.

After Kelly came out to play defense for Trump over his handling of calls to Gold Star families, smeared Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.) and refused to apologize, launched a Trumpian soliloquy about the good old days (when women were “sacred,” but not in the workforce) and elevated the moral stature of service members over mere civilians, it was hard to argue he was anything more than a Trump enabler.

Susan Glasser of Politico appearing on “Face the Nation” observed, “We’re not surprised Donald Trump behaved this way because it’s very consistent with what we’ve seen from President Trump throughout not only his presidency but his campaign. … I think it’s more surprising what we saw in a way from General Kelly. We learned more. One of the things that’s been apparent over the last couple of months that this underscored is that it remains Donald Trump’s White House and not John Kelly’s White House, even if he has imposed more discipline and more of a process, number one.

She added, “We saw that General Kelly, this week, shares more of Donald Trump’s agenda than we realized. … I found General Kelly’s comment to be surprising and even puzzling that he would have brought up in the same commentary about this incident with the Gold Star families this notion that in the good old days women were sacred.” She noted, “A lot of people have talked about the irony of working for a president who has been accused of this kind of behavior.”

Michael Duffy likewise related: “It was a classic damage-control operation by a White House chief of staff. And even though he seemed politically naive with that comment, I thought, I agree with you, he was also — he’s fundamentally a political person.”

Kelly’s fall from grace was swift and senseless. It was all so unnecessary; he need not have gone out to spin for the president.

The verdict on Kelly was remarkably negative, whether it was retired Gen. David Petraeus musing that Kelly was no doubt trying to figure out how to turn down the volume, or longtime GOP political strategist Matthew Dowd. (“The problem is that I have is … does he know who he works for? He talks about the sacredness of Gold Star families and that we have lost that when he works for a guy that attacked Gold Star families and attacked John McCain as a prisoner,” Dowd said. “He talks about the sacredness of women, and he has somebody that said certain things on tape, things that were at best predatory, at best predatory, and has been accused by 12 or 14 different women of behavior. He says we lost the sacredness of religion, and he works for somebody that wanted to ban Muslims.”)

So from adult day-care shift supervisor to enabler in a short week, Kelly sacrificed a good deal of his utility to the president for nothing. In seeking to elevate the military above the rest of us, he ironically undercut his own stature as a guarantor of our democratic norms, as Trump critic Eliot Cohen wrote:

He pointedly discriminated among those asking questions, suggesting that only those who were Gold Star relatives or knew a stricken family had the right to ask him questions. Indeed, the White House press secretary later declared that it is improper for anyone to question a Marine four-star—a statement worthy of Wilhelmine Germany at its worst. … The real sting came at the end. He told those in the audience that he did not look down on them for not having served; rather people like him—again, the 1 percent—merely feel sorry for civilians. But his final shot—“So just think of that”—undercut the previous sentence. The contempt was unmistakable.

Those harboring unrealistic expectations about Kelly have learned once again: None of Trump’s advisers can make up for the deficits of this president; and with a lonely exception of Mattis, all of them look worse for having tried.

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

8 minutes ago, Destiny said:

This whole things is just so ridiculous and childish on the administration's part. Why not just admit to your fuckups and move on. An apology (a real one, not bullshit like the pussy grabbing apology) would make this shit just go away, and it would be a well deserved one. Why can't they just act like reasonable adult people?

Because they know that trumpsters just don't care for those uppity black women. Doesn't matter if they are a senator and a gold star wife. Remember what they used to say of Michelle Obama?

[Destiny]

Because they know that trumpsters just don't care for those uppity black women. Doesn't matter if they are a senator and a gold star wife. Remember what they used to say of Michelle Obama?

You are not wrong. The things that were said about her and her daughters were horrific.

[GrumpyGran]

3 hours ago, Destiny said:

This whole things is just so ridiculous and childish on the administration's part. Why not just admit to your fuckups and move on. An apology (a real one, not bullshit like the pussy grabbing apology) would make this shit just go away, and it would be a well deserved one. Why can't they just act like reasonable adult people?

Dumpster does not apologize for anything and I'm sure anyone who works for him is not allowed to apologize either. If you do, you're fired. The fight du jour is not over until he says  it's over and if he tells you you will be involved you say yes or clean out your desk.

Kelly would only stand in front of reporters to say he was not quiting or being fired if there had been a conversation about how he should quit if he can't stand beside the president and support him and if he doesn't do just that he will be fired. In that moment Kelly made his choice. He was then told to go out in front of reporters and tell them that so there would be proof that he had willingly made the choice. I'm guessing lyin' Pence played a big part in this.

As to the tweet and people's reactions, when I looked at it earlier, I mostly saw people calling Dumpy a shit or something similar with only a few trolls and bots doing the usual rah-rahing for Dumpy. Did not see any serious threats against her, maybe a few legitimate people making negative comments but as I said that was several hours ago. Have people started threatening her?

Edited October 23, 2017 by GrumpyGran

[OtterRuletheWorld]

19 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Ain't this a bitch. Unfuckingbelievable.

Agreed that this is a shitty thing to do. Obviously. I had not seen any news on this anywhere, so I am happy that this wasn't incredibly wide spread.

 

5 hours ago, Zola said:

I'm watching CNN, and they're showing Myeshia Johnson right now saying she wasn't allowed to see her husband's body. She says she asked repeatedly to have the casket opened so she could see La David's body, and they refused. She's saying she was told her husband's body as in some sort of wrap, and she wouldn't be able to recognize him, but she said she knows every inch of him, every finger, every toe. She's not even sure the man in the casket was truly her husband, La David Johnson. How absolutely awful for her. She's even being denied this last little bit of closure.

How sorry this situation is, how badly this country has failed both this soldier and his widow. Shameful, disgusting, and infuriating. 

 

 

Unfortunately, I do not think caskets can be opened during a dignified transfer. The transfer and notification processes are VERY strict. It wasn't until 2009 that the press was allowed to be at a transfer and that is only if families agree.  In fact, the Obama administration released a photo of Obama saluting caskets in 2011, although 19 of 30 families had stated they did not want the press there. Due to those 19 families requesting no photography or press, the Pentagon dictated no images could be taken. I am not blaming President Obama for this misstep, but it was still wrong. This was the worst single loss of military personal during the, at the time, 10 year war. Those families were very upset I know you all dislike me, but you should really watch Taking Chance if you have not. I believe it is on netflix, but I also suggest having tissues ready.

 

7 hours ago, apple1 said:

Trump is outrageous, his poor little fee-fees cannot absorb even the smallest criticism. I have ZERO excuses for him, nor for Kelly's lies.

That said, Representative Wilson really should stop the tit-for-tat with 45. (Again, not excusing 45 in any way - his is the lion's share of the blame). But both a tug-of-war with the gold star wife as the rope doesn't help. (Yes, I realize she is a long-time friend of the family). Rep. Wilson, use your position in Congress to demand accountability.

This. Wilson is far from innocent in this entire debacle.

 

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

What do you think about the various Muslim bans? As a foreign citizen, an immigrant yourself, married to an American, you may be able to appreciate the difficulties that are thrown at immigrants from those countries and their families.

This seems off topic, but I am willing to discuss. I think targeting groups based on religion is wrong. I think targeting countries that have security risks is questionable. More importantly, I think the US immigration process needs a serious overhaul. I am personally very lucky to be in my position. I also appreciate that the immigration process is being used to protect the freedoms Americans have. I don't limit the difficulties to those that fall under a 90 day ban. The current "ban" includes North Korea and Venezuela. I personally know many Venezuelans and Cubans who are entirely happy with the current "bans".  I don't love the current ban, I didn't love when Obama ended the "wet feet, dry feet" policy, but I do think immigration is a touchy subject. Geographically speaking, I think the US needs to keep it's priority with Latin America. The EU isn't jumping up and down to take in Latin American immigrants or refugees. I don't blame them for that, but I do think their focus should remain on immigrants who are from nations closer to them.

ETA: Because I hit send by accident.

I want to be clear that I would love for all people to live in a world that gives humans as many rights as they have. I understand the appeal of the United States, but I also realize that America isn't a nation that has open borders and has a process that can take time. I do however know that a Muslim from Bosnia can apply for US citizenship, so, it isn't a "We ban all Muslims" kind of ban. Sure, it causes hardship and I am saddened by that for any human, but I will be more likely to speak out if it every becomes an actual "Ban all Muslims from entering America" travel ban. That would obviously be a shitty thing.
 

Edited October 23, 2017 by OtterRuletheWorld

[SilverBeach]

There are times, and this is another one of them, that I am ashamed of being American. As a black woman, I am also outraged. This thread has made me sad.

Edited October 23, 2017 by SilverBeach

[formergothardite]

@OtterRuletheWorld are you ready to call Trump loathsome? I would think that with your respect for veterans you would call him that based on him mocking a war hero, but it doesn't appear that you find that bad enough. Is calling a gold star wife a liar finally the thing? If not, why? 

Edited October 23, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

@OtterRuletheWorld are you ready to call Trump loathsome? I would think that with your respect for veterans you would call him that based on him mocking a war hero, but it doesn't appear that you find that bad enough. Is calling a gold star wife a liar finally the thing? If not, why? 

Sure, I think he is loathsome because you have told me I should think this way because of how he treated McCain and this single Gold Star spouse. I also find the sudden love for McCain to be laughable, although it seems Arizona has always to loved him.

How do you feel about the multiple Gold Star  who have stated they were appreciated the calls from Trump? Are you happy that they felt comforted? Or does that not matter to you? Am I required to have a one sided opinion that is not open to knew ideas? Do you think it was a loathsome act for Obama to bring his photographer to the dignified transfer of 30 service members when 19 families requested he did not AND the Pentagon decided photographers at said transfer in August of 2011 was a no go? Do you think it was loathsome to release any photography of the transfer? If not, why?

My point with all of this, by the way, is NOT to attack Obama, or Kelly, OR Trump or even Wilson, but to say that this has now been politicized and that sucks.  Everyone knows Trump is going to react, Wilson is not a "rock star" for this, regardless of what she believes, Kelly's grief was apparent during his presser and the only reason anyone is pissed is not because of what he said about Wilson, but because it supported Trump and he made some valid points, the Gold Star families opinions ALL matter, and I would expect they would all have differing opinions because they are all different people, from different backgrounds. Johnson doesn't speak for all, as Natasha De Alencar, etc do not speak for all. Some want to receive phone calls from Trump, others do not. Those who do  may or may not lke what he has to say. 

[VelociRapture]

I’m glad that other families have been comforted by his calls. That doesn’t make what he’s done to the Johnson’s ok though. He could have easily fixed this by explaining he made a misstep while trying to comfort Mrs. Johnson and that he was sorry for that. But he is incapable of doing any of that because he truly does not care. He always has to be right and when he isn’t he lashes out at anyone who calls him out on it.

@OtterRuletheWorldI’m not sure where you’re located (and you don’t need to tell me), but this treatment of Myeshia Jackson is widespread. Multiple media outlets are reporting on the fake Facebook post, but it still appears to be bouncing around. Even worse, people on social media are now claiming that Myeshia Johnson was paid to give the interview to Good Morning America and that she cares more about fake than the death of her husband.

Attacking the pregnant widow of a fallen soldier in this way is the very definition of deplorable. I honestly am so embarrassed of this country right now and I am so ashamed of this Administration.

ETA: And for the record, while I haven’t always agreed with Senator McCain on political issues I have always respected his service to this country. Seeing him attacked so cruelly over the past year or so has been horrifying for me to witness. I would assume many posters here feel the same way. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by VelociRapture

[GrumpyGran]

35 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Do you think it was a loathsome act for Obama to bring his photographer to the dignified transfer of 30 service members when 19 families requested he did not AND the Pentagon decided photographers at said transfer in August of 2011 was a no go? Do you think it was loathsome to release any photography of the transfer? If not, why?

My point with all of this, by the way, is NOT to attack Obama,

You are contradicting yourself.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m glad that other families have been comforted by his calls. That doesn’t make what he’s done to the Johnson’s ok though. He could have easily fixed this by explaining he made a misstep while trying to comfort Mrs. Johnson and that he was sorry for that. But he is incapable of doing any of that because he truly does not care. He always has to be right and when he isn’t he lashes out at anyone who calls him out on it.

@OtterRuletheWorldI’m not sure where you’re located (and you don’t need to tell me), but this treatment of Myeshia Jackson is widespread. Multiple media outlets are reporting on the fake Facebook post, but it still appears to be bouncing around. Even worse, people on social media are now claiming that Myeshia Johnson was paid to give the interview to Good Morning America and that she cares more about fake than the death of her husband.

Attacking the pregnant widow of a fallen soldier in this way is the very definition of deplorable. I honestly am so embarrassed of this country right now and I am so ashamed of this Administration.

I am in California. I have already stated that here, so not a secret any longer. I honestly had not seen the fake facebook page anywhere. I even went to a few super conservative holes in the internet to check and didn't see anything but calling it out for being obviously fake. I was referring to the fake facebook not being presented as factual all over the place.

I think the White House should just shut up about it at this point. An apology from Trump is likely not going to be well received and tweets are also not well received. So, I am of the opinion that we should all shut up about it, that the WH should shut up about it (that includes Trump) and Wilson should shut up about it. If Johnson or any other family WANT to speak out, go for it, but I think the media needs to leave them alone unless THEY go to the media.

I also have opinions about the President making calls. If it were my spouse, I would be honored, regardless of who the President is, simply because I would feel it honors my husband to be recognized by someone who is obviously busy, has a lot to do and could use bonus time to play golf (President Putt Putt 2.0) but I don't think it should be required and may believe it should be avoided. Right now it is easy because there are not a large number of casualties, but IF that happens in the future, it is going to be hard to keep up with. Plus, it could potentially  hurt if future Presidents don't follow suit.  I am not saying he should not have made the calls. I think it is honorable to try and am doubtful Trump intended any  harm with his call to any Gold Star family, but I do worry about the precedent.

3 minutes ago, GrumpyGran said:

You are contradicting yourself.

Really? I stated I wasn't using this to attack more than one individual, but context isn't important!!!!

I will repeat my question for you as well.

Do you think it was a loathsome act for Obama to bring his photographer to the dignified transfer of 30 service members when 19 families requested he did not AND the Pentagon decided photographers at said transfer in August of 2011 was a no go? Do you think it was loathsome to release any photography of the transfer? If not, why?

[formergothardite]

51 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Sure, I think he is loathsome because you have told me I should think this way because of how he treated McCain and this single Gold Star spouse. I also find the sudden love for McCain to be laughable, although it seems Arizona has always to loved him.

No, I just find it odd you were so critical of Wilson's voting record that wasn't even that bad, yet aren't repulsed by a guy who, let me remind you:

~mocked a war hero

~verbally attacked a gold star family

~lied to a gold star family about giving them money and didn't correct it until months later he was pretty much forced to

~lied about contacting gold star families

~called the family friend of a gold star family a liar even though she was speaking the truth

~called a gold star wife a liar.

None of this even gets into all the very, very, very, VERY awful other stuff Trump has said and done. 

Wilson can't compare to this, you had no issue criticizing her, yet you won't say Trump has and continues to treat gold star families like crap when the mood hits him.  You are looking more and more like a rabid Trump fan and not someone who respects the military.

Why don't all those things bother you? Why aren't you upset Kelly lied to smear the name of Wilson and refuses to apologize? 

I always find that when Trump fans get cornered with discussing something terrible he did they usually resort to "but Obama!" or "Hillary" instead of actually addressing the issue with Trump. 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by formergothardite

[VelociRapture]

@OtterRuletheWorldI’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to about the Obama military transfers. I searched quick and found this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/29/barack-obama-soldiers-dover-base

Is this what you were referring to? If not, could you please help me locate the incident you’re specifically referring to (to be sure everyone is on the same page and can answer based off the same information?)

If this is the incident you’re remembering, the article states that families had the right to refuse photos from being taken. Only one family agreed to have photos taken, that of Sergeant Dale Griffin, so he was the last to be taken off the plane and the media was only admitted to the area at that point. 

ETA: I think that Trump backed himself into a corner when he lied about past Presidents contacting families and when he lied (again) by claiming he had called every family who lost a loved one during his term. Both claims were very easy to disprove.

I would hope you don’t receive one of these calls, but if you do then I hope it would bring you comfort. Unfortunately, his words, tone, and inability to remember La David’s name brought this family no comfort. It only caused Mrs. Johnson and her family further pain and that’s not ok. I don’t blame them for being upset and I would say that regardless of who the President was. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by VelociRapture

[apple1]

@OtterRuletheWorld Do NOT twist what I said to justify yourself.

I actually did not place blame on Rep. Wilson - you did that. I DID express my opinion that the widow should not be used for a tug-of-war. I also noticed that you conveniently ignored what I said about Trump.

FTR - You are a troll, and I strongly suspect that you are the reincarnation of a formerly banned poster. You are exhibiting no interest in actual dialogue; you just want to stir the pot (hence, troll).

Done with you. 

[formergothardite]

It is another incident and it was disrespectful of Obama to bring a photographer when some of the families didn't want it, but since this is Otter's attempt to move the conversation away from Trump disrespecting veterans and gold star families and why she won't criticize him, I'm not going to go into it. 

ETA: I could be remembering it not correctly, but I'm not going to discuss it a great deal since Otter clearly wants to move this to Obama instead of addressing how she won't criticize Trump. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I will go on record saying that while I do think it is disrespectful of Obama to do this, I don't find Obama to be loathsome at all. I never was head over heals in love with the guy, but I am far from an Obama hater.

@apple1, I was not trying to twist anything. I agree that Trump needs to hush. I also think Wilson needs to Hush. She was laughing about the whole incident and calling herself a rock star. She honestly strikes me as one who is as fond of herself as Trump is of himself.

In other news, we are now learning more about what happened in Niger. Wilson claims this is "Trump's Benghazi".  Thoughts on this?

[formergothardite]

So, do you think Trump is disrespectful towards veterans and gold star families? 

I saw the clip with McCain today and he told the story of how a 92 year old veteran who had been a POW asked him why the president didn't like people like him who were captured and how McCain didn't know how to respond to that. This is how Trump makes some of our veterans feel, don't you think he deserves criticism for his treatment of some veterans and gold star families? 

I am amazed at how you will keep trying to change the conversation so you won't have to address Trump's awful behavior. 

ETA: and to give the rock star comment some clarity this is the full quote:

Quote

You mean to tell me that I have become so important that the White House is following me and my words?" a laughing Wilson said in an interview that aired Thursday on a Miami TV station. "This is amazing. That's amazing. That is absolutely phenomenal. I'll have to tell my kids that I'm a rock star now."

She was sarcastically saying how ridiculous it was that the white house was focusing on her with everything else going on. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

50 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

ETA: And for the record, while I haven’t always agreed with Senator McCain on political issues I have always respected his service to this country. Seeing him attacked so cruelly over the past year or so has been horrifying for me to witness. I would assume many posters here feel the same way. 

I am not debating this at all. I don't think his service should ever be attacked. He is a crappy politician, but I respect his service.
 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So, do you think Trump is disrespectful towards veterans and gold star families? 

I saw the clip with McCain today and he told the story of how a 92 year old veteran who had been a POW asked him why the president didn't like people like him who were captured and how McCain didn't know how to respond to that. This is how Trump makes some of our veterans feel, don't you think he deserves criticism for his treatment of some veterans and gold star families? 

I am amazed at how you will keep trying to change the conversation so you won't have to address Trump's awful behavior. 

I came to this thread to discuss Kelly. I think this forum manages to make everything directly about Trump. I don't care about him enough to talk about him as much as you do and I am not going to sit here and berate him just for back pats and acceptance by all of you. Would it make you feel better if I validated you? You haven't exactly treated me in a way that makes me have any desire to validate your opinions. I think you are getting plenty of validation otherwise, so why do you need it from me as well? Maybe you will feel like you are saving America if you get a random non-American to cry with you about your awful president who is worse than any world leader the world has ever seen.  Because I happen to have no idea what a shitty leader is. 

In short; Trump could be a lot fucking worse. He isn't even close to how bad he could be.

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I saw the clip with McCain today and he told the story of how a 92 year old veteran who had been a POW asked him why the president didn't like people like him who were captured and how McCain didn't know how to respond to that. This is how Trump makes some of our veterans feel, don't you think he deserves criticism for his treatment of some veterans and gold star families? 

 

If I were McCain, I would have probably pointed out to the poor POW that Trump doesn't hate POWs, just himself. Because we all know that was truly just a crappy way to attack McCain. But, McCain also doesn't want to point out that he sucks as a politician.

[nvmbr02]

32 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

If I were McCain, I would have probably pointed out to the poor POW that Trump doesn't hate POWs, just himself. Because we all know that was truly just a crappy way to attack McCain. But, McCain also doesn't want to point out that he sucks as a politician.

But when he made the comment he didn't single out McCain. He simply stated he liked people that weren't captured. Then when given a chance in a interview to walk back his comments or explain them further he just said he had no regrets. 

I only know one person who was a POW and that person was highly offended by those comments. I've never been a POW but I was also offended by them. 

I honestly think you are letting a dislike of McCain color your view on this issue. 

[formergothardite]

It says a lot about you otter that you won't even say that calling a gold star wife a liar is disrespectful. Again, you had no issue stating that Obama was disrespectful, what is it about Trump where you won't say he is?

This is a debate, I'm  asking you to explain yourself not validate me. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 minute ago, nvmbr02 said:

But when he made the comment he didn't single out McCain. He simply stated he liked people that weren't captured. Then when given a chance in a interview to walk back his comments or explain them further he just said he had no regrets. 

I only know one person who was a POW and that person was highly offended by those comments. I've never been a POW but I was also offended by them. 

I honestly think you are letting a dislike of McCain color your view on this issue. 

I am not defending Trump here at all. He shouldn't  have said it, but those comments WERE directed at McCain and while distasteful and I give no excuses, McCain knows this. This was hardly the first time McCain's POW record was attacked. Still, no excuse from Trump, but the left suddenly loving McCain and caring about his being a Prisoner of War was positively not a thing in 2008. It was something that tugged on the heartstrings of Americans and when it became a topic during the election in 2008, it was torn apart. I really don't like McCain at all, but his Concession Speech in 2008 was one that was emotional and his POW record and knowing that was dragged through the mud made me feel for him, his family and any other POW.  He was treated pretty poorly during that election and the left didn't give a shit about him until it worked for their narrative. At that point, the right was tired of his politics. He is a huge example of why term limits would be a good thing. Him, Leahy, McConnell, Pelosi just to name a few.

[nausicaa]

11 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

 but the left suddenly loving McCain and caring about his being a Prisoner of War was positively not a thing in 2008. It was something that tugged on the heartstrings of Americans and when it became a topic during the election in 2008, it was torn apart. 

David Foster Wallace's "A Weasel, Twelve Monkeys, and a Shrub" came out eight years before that, in 2000. 

Wallace was a liberal. I'm a (classical) liberal. That article made me respect McCain and his war service immensely. I still recommend that piece all the time to people, and not only because the writing is stellar. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by nausicaa
*was. Wallace was a liberal. :(

[OtterRuletheWorld]

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It says a lot about you otter that you won't even say that calling a gold star wife a liar is disrespectful. Again, you had no issue stating that Obama was disrespectful, what is it about Trump where you won't say he is?

This is a debate, I'm  asking you to explain yourself not validate me. 

No, you absolutely are asking to be validated. I never defended his tweets. I never said it wasn't disrespectful. There was nothing to debate because I never disagreed with you.  Regardless of her lying or not, he should have said nothing. I think he should have walked away from this conversation the moment it started. I am absolutely not insinuating she lied, but either way, it doesn't matter. Trump really didn't need to say anything. I am doubtful he ever intended to upset her. That seems outlandish to me. He really should have opted to not defend himself in this situation, but, we know that isn't how Trump rolls.  I never said otherwise and avoided doing so simply because I had no desire to validate you while you demanded I respond to something I never said. My point about Obama being disrespectful is that people are deciding when to feign outrage over the treatment of Gold Star families based on politics. The fact that most people don't even know that happened under the Obama administration is telling. Yet the moment Wilson said something, everyone swarmed all over it.

 

6 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

David Foster Wallace's "A Weasel, Twelve Monkeys, and a Shrub" came out eight years before that, in 2000. 

Wallace was a liberal. I'm a (classical) liberal. That article made me respect McCain and his war service immensely. I still recommend that piece all the time to people, and not only because the writing is stellar. 

Yes, but during the 2008 election, it was a different story.

Of course there are always sane people who will behave properly, but nobody cared when McCain was slandered during election season and he was running for president.

[formergothardite]

And you never would say he was disrespectful and has disrespected gold star families in the past. Why? Again this is a debate and I'm  asking you to explain your side. You have had ample opportunities to say trump has disrespected  gold star families  but each time you refuse. Why? Do you not feel he has treated some gold star families with disrespect?

Do you feel Kelly should apologize  for lying  about Wilson?

Edited October 24, 2017 by formergothardite