John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?

[GreyhoundFan]

"John Kelly’s facepalm at Trump’s U.N. speech: Exasperation, exhaustion or no big deal?"

Spoiler

Some thought President Trump's chief of staff looked embarrassed — a relatively mild assessment among the tens of thousands who have passed around a photo of John F. Kelly listening to his boss address the United Nations General Assembly on Tuesday, head in hand.

A Washington Examiner editor, for example, thought Kelly “went through some sort of existential crisis” during the speech, in which Trump at one point threatened to “totally destroy North Korea.”

The Russian government's state news outlet, Sputnik, noted Kelly's “facepalming reaction,” which is at least technically accurate: The man hired two months ago to bring order to Trump's chaotic presidency indisputably set palm to face, regardless of what was going through his mind at the time.

And what was Kelly thinking?

We may never know — just as we don't know how Kelly really felt the last time his body language went viral, when the new chief of staff hung his head and hugged himself as Trump, standing a few feet away, equivocated to reporters about the bloody gathering of white nationalists in Charlottesville.

...

But just as Trump's first speech to the United Nations on Tuesday was deemed “extraordinary” by this newspaper, those fascinated by the back of Kelly's hand have made extraordinary efforts to figure out what passed through the mind behind it.

The first problem: It's unclear exactly when in the speech Kelly facepalmed.

Other photos that day show him with hand on chin, or leaning forward attentively, or checking his watch.

Some assumed Kelly must have covered his eyes during one of the most remarkable lines in Trump's speech: “The United States has great strength and patience, but if it is forced to defend itself or its allies, we will have no choice but to totally destroy North Korea.”

...

But that's an assumption based on nothing.

Trump's prepared, 40-some-minute-long speech ranged across topics from human rights to Cuba, and ended on a note of “harmony and friendship, not conflict and strife.”

Kelly presumably listened to every line.

On the front page of Reddit, users tried to determine the exact time of the photo by inspecting Kelly's watch. They zoomed in and came up with 10:20 a.m., which is about when Trump was speaking of destruction and calling North Korea's leader “Rocket Man” — at least according to a timestamped CNN video of the speech.

But Reddit is not exactly known for atomic-level precision. Its users infamously botched attempts to track down suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing, for example.

...

Others attempted to extract the time from EXIF metadata in the image. (Many digital cameras append a timestamp, assuming the photographer sets her clock correctly.)

A reporter for the Toronto Star used data from the Associated Press, which distributed the photo, and concluded Kelly must have facepalmed several seconds before Trump threatened to destroy North Korea — just as the president was telling world leaders: “No nation on Earth has an interest in seeing this band of criminals arm itself with nuclear weapons and missiles.”

...

By Wednesday morning, Axios AM had labeled the reporter's detective work the “tweet du jour,” noting that Kelly's reactions to his boss “have become a fascination for photographers.”

But amateur sleuthing only gets you so far.

The photographer who took the famous image, Mary Altaffer, was unreachable Wednesday.

The Trump White House, reportedly very attentive to the optics of crowds, did not immediately get back to The Post about Kelly's comportment in the United Nations audience.

But the president's press secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, was asked Wednesday about the many grim poses of Kelly.

“He seems to be with the president all the time,” said “Fox & Friends” co-host Brian Kilmeade. “He seems to either be holding his head, or showing exasperation, or staring at the ground — and people look at those photos, saying he's unhappy with the president's remarks.”

Sanders countered that the two men had “a great chemistry.”

“I would certainly not read anything into that picture,” she said. “Probably, just like the rest of us, we're tired trying to keep up with this president who's working hard every day to help America.”

The press secretary made a good point: Read meaning into a lone image at your own risk.

You might remember that early in the administration, long before Kelly's every facial tic was augured online, another photo of a man averting eyes in Trump's presence went viral.

...

It was of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, apparently snubbing the president's hand in February. But as video made clear, that single still image was an aberrant frame, misrepresenting a perfectly cordial handshake between the two men.

So then, John Kelly: exhausted or existentially depressed?

Did he cover his eyes as Trump spoke of a terrible war, or something more tame?

We have only the photos to go on, for now.

Here's what Kelly looked like after the speech, for what it's worth:

...

I can't imagine when he wouldn't be face-palming.

[Howl]

From the WaPo article quoted by @GreyhoundFan: 

Quote

A Washington Examiner editor, for example, thought Kelly “went through some sort of existential crisis” during the speech, in which Trump at one point threatened to “totally destroy North Korea.”

This is beyond priceless.  Kelly hasn't been chewed up and spit out yet, but I'm sure every day he wakes up, and says WTF before his feet even hit the floor.  I see Kelly as a warrior taking one for the team and I don't think he's into indulging in existential crises; he's just not an emo kinda guy.  However, many have immediately found themselves tarnished and unmoored the minute they associated themselves with Trump, and I'm sure there have been episodes of crying into pillows to muffle the sobs once they realized what they'd done and what had been lost.  Existential crises, indeed. 

 

Quote

Sanders countered that the two men had “a great chemistry.”

“I would certainly not read anything into that picture,” she said. “Probably, just like the rest of us, we're tired trying to keep up with this president who's working hard every day to help America.”

Girl earned her salary, right there, spinning shit into gold, but dayum, she's such a relentlessly humorless drudge. 

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Howl

[fraurosena]

59 minutes ago, Howl said:

However, many have immediately found themselves tarnished and unmoored the minute they associated themselves with Trump, and I'm sure there have been episodes of crying into pillows to muffle the sobs once they realized what they'd done and what had been lost

Anyone with even an ounce of sense following the electoral campaign knew exactly what they were getting into. I mean, I live on the other side of the world, and before the elections had no interest in politics whatsoever, let alone American politics, and even I knew what kind of moron the mandarin menace is before he got elected.

I have zero sympathy for Kelly. I do not care one iota that the man used to be a general. (And what does that say, anyway? Generals can be absolute dickheads too. Being part of the military doesn't suddenly make you into a good person, or even a smart one).

I'm judging Kelly on his conduct and his actions in the administration. He's part of it, and he willingly chose to be part of it. He's a fool in a government of morons. So he can face-palm all he wants. He can pull any face he likes showing how uncomfortable he is with what comes out of the presidunce's mouth. I do not care. In fact, I hope he loses sleep over it. I hope he does cry tears of regret. But I'm not feeling sorry for him. He made his bed. Now he can lie on it.

 

[candygirl200413]

All of this @fraurosena. In the end all of these indivduals consented to work for orange fuckface. They should never get any type of sympathy (except Barron because he didn't get to obviously choose his family).Plus they haven't really stoppped fuckface from doing anything as being the "adults" in the situation.

[GreyhoundFan]

Apparently Kelly is trying to stop some of the crap: "White House to Cabinet: No private air travel without Kelly's approval"

Spoiler

The White House cracked down on Cabinet officials' use of private planes Friday, telling them chief of staff John Kelly must approve almost all travel on "government-owned, rented, leased, or chartered aircraft," after Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price resigned over his own taxpayer-funded flights.

Mick Mulvaney, the director of the Office of Management and Budget, sent out the memo soon after Price’s resignation was made public. His exit came after a series of POLITICO reports about his frequent use of private planes to conduct government — and sometimes personal — business.

“In light of recent events, the President has asked me to remind the heads of all executive departments and agencies of Administration policies on travel,” Mulvaney wrote.

He reminded the department and agency heads that, by regulation, “Government-owned, rented, leased, or chartered aircraft should not be used for travel by Government employees except with specific justification.”

“However, beyond the law and formal policy, departments and agencies should recognize that we are public servants,” Mulvaney wrote. “Every penny we spend comes from the taxpayer. We thus owe it to the taxpayer to work as hard managing that money wisely as the taxpayer must do to earn it in the first place.”

Mulvaney added: “Put another way, just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.”

Officials should stick to commercial travel “with few exceptions,” he wrote.

In the wake of the controversy, other administration officials’ travels have come under scrutiny. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke has used military planes for some trips, POLITICO reported, while EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin have also raised eyebrows with their travel itineraries.

President Donald Trump was livid over the Price scandal and accepted his resignation on Friday.

"We have great secretaries, and we have some that actually own their own planes, so that solves that,” Trump told reporters earlier on Friday.

 

[GrumpyGran]

13 hours ago, GreyhoundFan said:

Apparently Kelly is trying to stop some of the crap: "White House to Cabinet: No private air travel without Kelly's approval"

  Reveal hidden contents

The White House cracked down on Cabinet officials' use of private planes Friday, telling them chief of staff John Kelly must approve almost all travel on "government-owned, rented, leased, or chartered aircraft," after Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price resigned over his own taxpayer-funded flights.

Mick Mulvaney, the director of the Office of Management and Budget, sent out the memo soon after Price’s resignation was made public. His exit came after a series of POLITICO reports about his frequent use of private planes to conduct government — and sometimes personal — business.

“In light of recent events, the President has asked me to remind the heads of all executive departments and agencies of Administration policies on travel,” Mulvaney wrote.

He reminded the department and agency heads that, by regulation, “Government-owned, rented, leased, or chartered aircraft should not be used for travel by Government employees except with specific justification.”

“However, beyond the law and formal policy, departments and agencies should recognize that we are public servants,” Mulvaney wrote. “Every penny we spend comes from the taxpayer. We thus owe it to the taxpayer to work as hard managing that money wisely as the taxpayer must do to earn it in the first place.”

Mulvaney added: “Put another way, just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.”

Officials should stick to commercial travel “with few exceptions,” he wrote.

In the wake of the controversy, other administration officials’ travels have come under scrutiny. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke has used military planes for some trips, POLITICO reported, while EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin have also raised eyebrows with their travel itineraries.

President Donald Trump was livid over the Price scandal and accepted his resignation on Friday.

"We have great secretaries, and we have some that actually own their own planes, so that solves that,” Trump told reporters earlier on Friday.

 

Sometimes I picture Kelly just running around the West Wing with a fire extinguisher in his hands. A laudable move but he's not one of Dumpy's butt-buddies so when push come to shove, he will probably lose the battle. It's going to take more than him to put this arrogant behavior in the grave.

[GrumpyGran]

Not going to mince words, this man is disgusting. Twice in one week, he gives Trump a blow job on national TV, but yesterday was one of the most vile things I have seen in this administration so far. It wouldn't have been any less appalling if he had been on his knees while Dumpy patted him on the head.

First, his ridiculous assertion that Congresswoman Wilson shouldn't have been listening to the call. Who the fuck are you to tell a grieving widow who should or shouldn't be by her side during a time like this? And my understanding was that Mrs. Johnson had the call on speaker. Was Ms Wilson suppose to throw herself out of a moving car?

Then he does the unthinkable, unless you're Dumpy. He made it all about himself. Why are you standing up there talking about your grief about your son? This isn't about you! Ok, I take that back, this really is about you, isn't it? You and your job. Does this shit really believe anybody in that room believed a word he was saying? And if Dumpy asked you what to say, I'm a unicorn. You may have tried to tell him what to say but he didn't ask you, he doesn't like you.

To stand there accusing Congresswoman of politicizing this, while you're politicizing this is the height of hypocrisy.

Oh, and of course he has to finish by saying Obama didn't call him. Did he write you, Kelly? Did you forget to mention that? Oh, but you're not criticizing. No, you're just giving that lunatic who is apparently your master now, more fodder to create a false narrative. You are a disrespectful, ball-less, scum-sucking piece of shit. Shame on you.

Edited October 20, 2017 by GrumpyGran

[JMarie]

12 hours ago, GrumpyGran said:

First, his ridiculous assertion that Congresswoman Wilson shouldn't have been listening to the call. Who the fuck are you to tell a grieving widow who should or shouldn't be by her side during a time like this? And my understanding was that Mrs. Johnson had the call on speaker. Was Ms Wilson suppose to throw herself out of a moving car?

Kelly is all upset because Wilson was listening to a "private" phone call.  But Kelly was sitting with Trump as Trump made the phone call, so Kelly was also listening.  Why isn't he upset with himself???

[Cartmann99]

From the articles I read, Ms. Wilson has known the Johnson family for a long time, and is considered a member of the Johnson family. Sgt. Johnson was one of the young people she had mentored in a program she ran, and she was very proud of him. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense that she would be in the car with the Johnson family when they went to collect Sgt. Johnson's remains. 

I saw on Twitter that Sheriff Clarke of Minnesota was attacking Ms. Wilson's fashion choices. He wears his various cowboy hats, and pins all sorts of fake medals on his police uniform, but for some reason, it really bothers him when Ms. Wilson coordinates her hats to her outfits. 

[GrumpyGran]

11 hours ago, Cartmann99 said:

From the articles I read, Ms. Wilson has known the Johnson family for a long time, and is considered a member of the Johnson family. Sgt. Johnson was one of the young people she had mentored in a program she ran, and she was very proud of him. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense that she would be in the car with the Johnson family when they went to collect Sgt. Johnson's remains. 

I saw on Twitter that Sheriff Clarke of Minnesota was attacking Ms. Wilson's fashion choices. He wears his various cowboy hats, and pins all sorts of fake medals on his police uniform, but for some reason, it really bothers him when Ms. Wilson coordinates her hats to her outfits. 

Among the dozens and dozens of things that these Trump minions do that makes me slam my head into a wall every day is that they can't seem to figure out when to keep their damned mouths shut. They all seem to have a chronic case of verbal diarrhea.

[fraurosena]

Aww. Boohoo. It's so inappropriate to go after a 4-star general. 

 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I guess I am the minority in this one. Kelly was really talking about keeping the notification process and all that surrounds it as something that isn't attacked or politicized. He himself has very real experience with this. Most Americans have no idea what happens during the notification process. He touched on it, but it is more than a knock at a surviving family member's door.

There is a lot of training that goes into the notification process. Not only for service members, but there is also training for family members who could be part of a support team for gold star families. The training is REALLY tough to sit through. I am sure Kelly has been through this training (I have nothing to confirm this, but it is highly unlikely a 4 star has not been part of this training at some point in his career. Obviously this training is not going to assure you don't say the wrong thing, or make everything perfect. Kelly tends to get emotional when discussing his son. I cannot find it right now, but earlier this year he got pretty emotional on a Fox news interview.

Also, the military is overwhelmingly supportive of Kelly's speech/presser this week, as are Gold Star families.

He wasn't making this about himself. He put his personal grief out there to defend gold star families, and the notification process.

I would highly suggest you watch Taking Chance as suggested and then discuss afterward.

[formergothardite]

17 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Kelly was really talking about keeping the notification process and all that surrounds it as something that isn't attacked or politicized.

If this is true, then the first person he should criticize is Trump. Trump is the one who started the entire thing by ignoring four soldiers who were killed for TWELVE DAYS while he instead went on Twitter rants about things that don't even matter. And then when questioned he turned the entire thing political by claiming he is better at this than any other president. He then drug Kelly and his son into the mess. 

Instead of going after Senator Wilson, he should have gone after the one who started it all, Trump.  He not only apparently made a grieving widow cry, he couldn't bother to even remember her name when speaking about her and then lied about what he said and also about having proof that he didn't say that. 

And while no amount of training can prevent someone from saying the wrong thing in a situation like this, common decency prevents most people from promising a grieving family money and a fundraiser and then not doing it. Common decency also says that when you slip up and hurt a Gold Star family, you immediately apologize, you don't go on the attack. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

If this is true, then the first person he should criticize is Trump. Trump is the one who started the entire thing by ignoring four soldiers who were killed for TWELVE DAYS while he instead went on Twitter rants about things that don't even matter. And then when questioned he turned the entire thing political by claiming he is better at this than any other president. He then drug Kelly and his son into the mess. 
Instead of going after Senator Wilson, he should have gone after the one who started it all, Trump.  He not only apparently made a grieving widow cry, he couldn't bother to even remember her name when speaking about her and then lied about what he said and also about having proof that he didn't say that. 
And while no amount of training can prevent someone from saying the wrong thing in a situation like this, common decency prevents most people from promising a grieving family money and a fundraiser and then not doing it. Common decency also says that when you slip up and hurt a Gold Star family, you immediately apologize, you don't go on the attack. 

I am specifically talking about Kelly, not Trump. Kelly himself has a much larger understanding of this than the average person. He served in the military AND is a Gold Star family member. He is the highest ranking military officer to lose a child in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Wilson is not exempt from having politicized this. On her own, separately from Trump. This is hurtful to ALL gold star families. Trump's response doesn't negate her actions whatsoever.

Wilson has a really awful voting record when it comes to Veterans. This was absolutely opportunistic of her.

https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/17319/frederica-wilson/66/veterans#.Wet9oZ9lDqC

[formergothardite]

11 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I am specifically talking about Kelly, not Trump.

So am I. He had no problem going after Wilson and defending Trump, when it was Trump who started the entire thing. If he truly doesn't want the notification of Gold Star families to be politicized, the first person he should have criticized is Trump, something he did not do, which in turn means that he is participating in the politicization of it. He turned it into Trump did no wrong while attacking Wilson. He should have criticized them both or just kept silent.

Quote

 This was absolutely opportunistic of her. 

And it wasn't of Trump? He took the situation where he ignored fallen soldiers to brag about how awesome he is, when a glance showed he was openly lying. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

And it wasn't of Trump? He took the situation where he ignored fallen soldiers to brag about how awesome he is, when a glance showed he was openly lying. 

Dont care about Trump. Or Wilson to be frank. Turning the soldiers deaths into a sideshow is wrong. I blame the media and public for this more than any of the above. People dies serving their country, families and friends lost loved ones and Kelly, who truly has a respected voice concerning this and was clearly emotional, is being attacked. He put himself and his family out there to remind everyone of exactly what is important and nobody listened. You have the right attacking Wilson for wearing hats, the left attacking Kelly for "defending Trump" etc. Nobody said "well fuck, people lost their soldier, that sucks."

In fact, without googling, I am willing to bet you cannot name all four service members who lost their lives, let alone the details of what they left behind. What they cared about, what their hobbies are or a single story about their lives that ended too soon. Do you know if they had children? And if you really do care about this one window and how her conversation went, do you care about how the other three went or what else was said during the conversation? Or are you limiting the loss of these four soldiers and how that impacts you, your country, their families, etc, to how Trump reacted to it?

[candygirl200413]

But, the reason why this issue came into the light is that of trump. He spoke up, gave no reason and is STILL pushing this. WE have seen how he reacted to many Gold Star families and veterans in general. This should no longer (but sadly) be surprising. It's pretty easy to see that he used Kelly as a scapegoat for all this. This could have been ended if he said "Hey his response is wrong" and go that route but he didn't. Instead, he went after the family.

 

[formergothardite]

My knowledge of names is neither here nor there in this debate. I'm not sure why you decided to start a personal attack istead of carefully explaining how Kelly didn't participate in politicizing the issue when he attacked one person who did(but appears to have had the support of the Gold Star family) while he supporting the person who started it all and has insulted at least several Gold Star families. By praising Trump and attacking Wilson, he jumped right into politicizing this. 

[fraurosena]

I think I've already made clear what my personal views on Kelly are, so I won't repeat them again. But, I'm sorry, to state that turning soldiers deaths into a sideshow is somehow the publics and the media's fault is ludicrously by-passing the facts, and show a bias that is unfounded in truth.

The only one who is to blame for the 'sideshow' as you say, is the presidunce himself. When asked why he hadn't commented on the four deaths in Niger, he sidetracked the question and proclaimed loudly and falsely that he is the only president ever to contact the Gold star families (and then a few minutes later he tried to backtrack and nuance his claim). He is the one who started this whole controversy, all on his own. And then, when he knew he had put his foot in it, and tried to make good, he totally and utterly botched the conversation. What makes matters much worse, is that he first denied what he had said, and then trotted out Kelly, who attempted to distract from what had happened by attacking a congresswoman. Not once did Kelly mention any sympathy whatsoever with the six-months pregnant wife of La David Johnson (and no, I did not google his name). The only thing he did was make excuses for the presidunce and falsely accuse Ms. Wilson.

I feel for anyone who has lost a child. That must be a horror beyond imagination. So I sympathize with Kelly, as a father who has had to endure the loss of his son. But I most emphatically do not sympathize with, or will disregard or condone what he said during that press briefing. Frankly, he should be ashamed of himself, resorting to lies and bullying tactics. But as he is part of the tangerine toddler's administration, he's just acting like everybody else there, and fitting right in.

Oh, and as for the presidunce's claims...

Exclusive: Pentagon Document Contradicts Trump’s Gold Star Claims

Quote

In the hours after President Donald Trump said on an Oct. 17 radio broadcast that he had contacted nearly every family that had lost a military servicemember this year, the White House was hustling to learn from the Pentagon the identities and contact information for those families, according to an internal Defense Department email.

The email exchange, which has not been previously reported, shows that senior White House aides were aware on the day the president made the statement that it was not accurate — but that they should try to make it accurate as soon as possible, given the gathering controversy.

Not only had the president not contacted virtually all the families of military personnel killed this year, the White House did not even have an up-to-date list of those who had been killed.

The exchange between the White House and the Defense secretary’s office occurred about 5 p.m. on Oct. 17. The White House asked the Pentagon for information about surviving family members of all servicemembers killed after Trump’s inauguration so that the president could be sure to contact all of them.

Capt. Hallock Mohler, the executive secretary to Defense Secretary James Mattis, provided the White House with information in the 5 p.m. email about how each servicemember had died and the identity of his or her survivors, including phone numbers.

The email’s subject line was, “Condolence Letters Since 20 January 2017.”

Mohler indicated in the email that he was responding to a request from the president’s staff for information through Ylber Bajraktari, an aide on the National Security Council. The objective was to figure out who among so-called Gold Star families of the fallen Trump had yet to call. Mohler’s email said that the president’s aides “reached out to Ylber looking for the following ASAP from DOD.”

Trump had said in a Fox News Radio interview earlier that day that he had contacted the families of “virtually everybody” in the military who had been killed since he was inaugurated.

“I have called, I believe, everybody — but certainly I’ll use the word virtually everybody,” Trump said.

Since then, the Associated Press contacted 20 families and found that half had not heard from Trump. It is not clear how many of the families that have heard from the president received the calls this week, since the controversy over his contacts with military families erupted. It is not clear when the White House first asked for data on Gold Star families, but it is clear that the answers had not been provided before Tuesday.

The Pentagon email indicates that 21 military personnel had been killed in action during Trump’s tenure, and an additional 44 had been killed by means other than enemy fire, such as ship collisions that took 17 sailors’ lives in the Pacific this summer.

Trump has clearly been active in reaching out to military families who have suffered the ultimate loss, as the AP reports show.

But the White House-Pentagon email scramble Tuesday undermines the veracity of Trump’s statement about his record of contacting all Gold Star families. The internal document also sheds light on how the White House staff, on this and other occasions, has had to go into damage-control mode when the president makes inaccurate statements.

On Oct. 18, the day after the president’s aides had sought and received the Gold Star family data from the Pentagon, a reporter at a White House press conference asked Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders whether Trump had in fact contacted all the families.

“The president’s made contact with all of the families that have been presented to him through the White House Military Office,” she replied. “All of the individuals that the president has been presented with through the proper protocol have been contacted through that process.”

That language is hedged. “Made contact” does not mean a phone call necessarily, and “through that process” could mean letters of condolence or other forms. 

The administration echoed Sanders’ language Friday night.

“The White House ensured that the President had contacted all families of soldiers killed in action that had been presented to him through existing protocols,”  spokesman Raj Shah said in an email.

Yeah, that clearly shows how much they really care for the families of fallen soldiers...

[OtterRuletheWorld]

My knowledge of names is neither here nor there in this debate. I'm not sure why you decided to start a personal attack istead of carefully explaining how Kelly didn't participate in politicizing the issue when he attacked one person who did(but appears to have had the support of the Gold Star family) while he supporting the person who started it all and has insulted at least several Gold Star families. By praising Trump and attacking Wilson, he jumped right into politicizing this. 

I don't know how to better explain that as a Gold Star family member, his voice should be heard and listened to. What he said is important and holds value. If he supports Trump, he supports Trump. I think his opinion holds more weight in this situation than those that don't serve and more so, those who are not Gold Star families and to a lesser extent, those who have relationships with those who have been KIA or their families.

I apologize for personally attacking you. It wasn't so much an attack as a likely fact and you are likely not in the minority. I bet a large majority of people have no idea as to the names of the four soldiers. That's fine, but what Kelly is really saying is respect these families and men who lost their lives serving their country.

Also, please understand that it is incredibly difficult to speak with anyone grieving and to know what to say. It is even more difficult when you are speaking to a Gold Star family. It is hard enough if you are affiliated with the military, but when you haven't put that uniform on or are a family member of someone who does, it makes for a really tough conversation. That doesn't mean it is wrong to reach out, but understand that there is a large disconnect between civilians and military. That is the way it is.

I am asking a few honest questions here and these are not meant to judge. Do you personally know a gold Star family? Have you ever known anyone KIA? What would you say?

If you aren't speaking from experience, I beg of you to listen to those who can. Understand that not all families are going to feel, react or respond in the same way. That is why CNOs and CAOs exist. (Casualty Notification Officers and Casualty Assistance Officers). There are a lot of people involved with assuring families are treated with the upmost respect, but that hardly means things are going to run flawlessly.

I don't need to carefully explain Kelly's response. It is his own and as a Gold Star family member who was clearly emotional, I am refusing to attack him. His speech was hardly "vile" and is pretty hate filled. I understand that you loathe the President and you are allowed to do so, but in this situation, I find it pretty "vile" to attack Kelly.

[SilverBeach]

How about "I'm sorry" or "I'm so sorry for your loss", or even "I'm so sorry for your family's loss"? FFS, it ain't that difficult to express condolences.

[formergothardite]

Otter, being a Gold Star father doesn't give him a pass for politicizing this while complaining about people politicizing it. My experience is irrelevant here and I'm not sure why you keep trying to make it personal. I'm not going into my entire family/friend background with military, who served, who got injured in action and who died because it isn't relevant and is a distraction from what the actual discussion is.

The question is, did he participate in politicizing this? You say no, but haven't really explained why jumping to defend Trump, attacking Wilson, accusing her of listening in on the conversation when she was there comforting a grieving family and they put it on speaker and then lying about Wilson to make her look bad isn't politicizing it. You don't need to know my history to answer this. How is these actions not participating in politicizing the issue? 

A Gold Star mother spoke out and said Trump hurt her with his words. A Gold Star father spoke out and said Trump made promises and didn't keep them. Another Gold Star father spoke out and said Trump's lies about this made him so mad he got a Twitter account to call out the president. Kelly sided with the guy who hurt these people. He defended him while saying he was "stunned" that Wilson listened to a call that was on speaker. How much more political does he need to get before you will admit that he has jumped right into the fray of politicizing the issue? 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by formergothardite

[fraurosena]

3 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I don't know how to better explain that as a Gold Star family member, his voice should be heard and listened to. What he said is important and holds value. If he supports Trump, he supports Trump. I think his opinion holds more weight in this situation than those that don't serve and more so, those who are not Gold Star families and to a lesser extent, those who have relationships with those who have been KIA or their families.

I apologize for personally attacking you. It wasn't so much an attack as a likely fact and you are likely not in the minority. I bet a large majority of people have no idea as to the names of the four soldiers. That's fine, but what Kelly is really saying is respect these families and men who lost their lives serving their country.

Also, please understand that it is incredibly difficult to speak with anyone grieving and to know what to say. It is even more difficult when you are speaking to a Gold Star family. It is hard enough if you are affiliated with the military, but when you haven't put that uniform on or are a family member of someone who does, it makes for a really tough conversation. That doesn't mean it is wrong to reach out, but understand that there is a large disconnect between civilians and military. That is the way it is.

I am asking a few honest questions here and these are not meant to judge. Do you personally know a gold Star family? Have you ever known anyone KIA? What would you say?

If you aren't speaking from experience, I beg of you to listen to those who can. Understand that not all families are going to feel, react or respond in the same way. That is why CNOs and CAOs exist. (Casualty Notification Officers and Casualty Assistance Officers). There are a lot of people involved with assuring families are treated with the upmost respect, but that hardly means things are going to run flawlessly.

I don't need to carefully explain Kelly's response. It is his own and as a Gold Star family member who was clearly emotional, I am refusing to attack him. His speech was hardly "vile" and is pretty hate filled. I understand that you loathe the President and you are allowed to do so, but in this situation, I find it pretty "vile" to attack Kelly.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get your blind bias towards Kelly just because he lost his son. Does the fact that his son died magically turn him into a saint, just because his son was a soldier? Of course it doesn't. He can still be a liar and a bully. And be honest, he was demonstrably a liar and a bully during that press briefing. Or did you see another briefing than the rest of us did?

Oh, and just so you know, nobody here is 'attacking' Kelly.  We're simply calling him out on his behavior and his falsehoods. 

Also, I find it pretty telling that you state "I understand that you loathe the President"... It implies that you do not feel 'one of us'. Maybe that is why you are so on the defensive?

[GrumpyGran]

This situation began when President Donald Trump, the Commander-in-Chief was asked why he had not made a public comment about the four deceased soldiers. He proceeded to lie about past Presidents' actions and his own response. He was called on this and then made a less-than-appropriate call to the widow, while she was in the presence of her mother and a family friend. The family friend happens to be a representative from Florida. The widow, the one grieving, was upset by the call and the Congresswoman called the President out on making an insensitive call to a young widow, who by the way, was pregnant. This woman may be wondering how she will raise her young children by herself and is clearly in a precarious emotional position.

The President denied saying the thing that upset the widow, but was confronted with the information that it was heard by not one, but two people other than the widow.

The Chief of Staff decides, I am assuming of his own free will, to make a public statement about this. He chastises the Congresswoman for listening to the call. Was she suppose to jump out of the car, scream at the widow to hang up because of her presence, stuff cotton in her ears? He then proceeds to publicly discuss his own grief, something the President has said he doesn't do.

He details the notification process even though no one has faulted the officer and chaplain who delivered this terrible news to Mrs. Johnson. He talks about how there is no respect and makes a veiled comment about a Gold Star family, which can be construed as either a slam at his boss or the Gold Star family, but he does mention them in this statement. He makes a claim about the Congresswoman that has nothing to do with this situation. 

Here's what he did not do: Say that it was not the president's intent to upset Mrs. Johnson or disrespect Sgt. La David Johnson or his service and that the country is grateful to her and the whole family for their sacrifice. It might have helpful for Mrs. Johnson to hear someone in the administration say her late husband's name.

As to General Kelly and his sacrifice, no one is disputing it or his right to discuss it, even publicly, if he chooses to do so. Using it as a battering ram against someone who is showing support for another Gold Star family, in a way that that family has approved of, was offensive to me. If Mrs. Johnson did not feel the President's call appropriately expressed the country's sympathies, it is her right to express that and to do it through whomever she chooses. Or will we decide that only 'certain' Gold Star families should be heard?

[SilverBeach]

Otter is a TT supporter.  None of the rest of us use a capital P when referring to him, or even the word President when referring to that dirtbag.