John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

11 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Except Iraq and Afghanistan are not on the list at this point. Although Libya is.

And it is hardly like anyone has ever decided to flee from Europe. Europe is the beacon of love and acceptance of course. Such a kind a loving history. Even keeping doors open so lovingly for Bosnian refugees. Never ever sending them off to the United States, further away from their families. Never.

First of all, I was just reminding you that in your geographical theory you didn't take into account that European countries didn't screw up South American countries in the as the  US did with Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. And we Italians thank you very much every day for the Lybian disaster (together with Sarkozy of course).

Secondly talking about EU and refugees/migrants doesn't make sense because currently we don't have (nor we ever had) common policies to face the problem. The Dublin treaty is the one currently regulating the matter among EU members. It just states that immigrants need to seek asylum in the first country where they arrived and were identified and can't move to other EU countries.

And just to throw around a couple of figures from Unhcr, in 2014 arrived in Italy, mostly illegally crossing the sea from Lybia, 170 000 migrants, in 2015 they were 153 000, in 2016 other 170 000 in 2017 (figures adjourned at August) 104 000. Of these people most will stay in Italy that they qualify as refugees or not. We are doing our part rescuing as many as possible from the sea and even if I am ready to admit we can do much better, it would be extremely unfair to shame us for doing nothing for refugees. Especially if the criticism comes from a Trump apologist.

Regarding Bosnia and your nasty accusations please note that Italy alone took in 60 000 people fleeing from ex-Yugoslavia between 1991 and 1995. They didn't even need to specifically ask for asylum as we introduced special legislation to automatically make them refugees for humanitarian reasons. We didn't care if they were Bosnian, Serbian or Slovenian we took them without questions.

[Palimpsest]

15 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

In regards to the claims the Kelly is a liar, I think calling him a liar is a giant leap given that the point had nothing to do with her getting money for the building/naming the building, but that she stood up and talked about herself at the time.

 

Lie:  Wilson praised herself for getting the funding.  

Fact:  Wilson was instrumental in pushing through the naming of the building for the FBI agents against the odds and said so in her speech.  That is what politicians do - talk about their accomplishments.  She told the truth about what she had done, unlike some other politicians ...

I'll just leave this here.  http://www.dailywire.com/news/4834/trumps-101-lies-hank-berrien

[OtterRuletheWorld]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Lie:  Wilson praised herself for getting the funding.  

Fact:  Wilson was instrumental in pushing through the naming of the building for the FBI agents against the odds and said so in her speech.  That is what politicians do - talk about their accomplishments.  She told the truth about what she had done, unlike some other politicians ...

I'll just leave this here.  http://www.dailywire.com/news/4834/trumps-101-lies-hank-berrien

Well, just remember that when any politician you don't like talks about their accomplishments. Politicians can talk about their accomplishments whenever they want. Right?

The point is still that she is an opportunistic politician. Of course, all should have applauded her and she deserves absolutely no criticism for this, because she truly is that amazing.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

 

As for Kelly, it seems like he isn't going to apologize for lying. Either he was always this horrible or Trump has corrupted him. Let's say he lied by mistake, the proper thing is to apologize. The longer he stays silent, the worse he looks. 

A good article about Kelly and his "women were sacred"

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/10/24/john-kelly-said-women-were-sacred-that-attitude-perpetuates-the-militarys-culture-of-misogyny/?utm_term=.76e71859b2a6

The author of your link is worth checking out.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2015/07/07/controversy-surrounds-firing-of-marines-female-recruit-battalion-co/

[Destiny]

I thought you promised us that you were leaving this conversation? A proper Harry Potter fan keeps their promises.

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Politicians can talk about their accomplishments whenever they want. Right?

They always do.  Blowing their horns in public is part of the American Way.  Sometimes they may even exaggerate their accomplishments and get get called out, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  Wilson was praised for her fast actions and pushing the bill through by none other than Comey.  Oh, oops.  Comey's out because he has some integrity.

But that is different from lying about every 5 minutes.  See Trump - who doesn't care about the truth.

I think Kelly is a huge disappointment.  I didn't expect much from him, but I did hope that he might be able to control the uncontrollable.  Instead of holding the line of integrity, he is sliding down the slippery slope of lies embraced by the current administration.  This outright lie is not even spin.  He should be ashamed of himself - and his appalling reactions to the whole debacle.

[Zola]

25 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Well, just remember that when any politician you don't like talks about their accomplishments. Politicians can talk about their accomplishments whenever they want. Right?

The point is still that she is an opportunistic politician. Of course, all should have applauded her and she deserves absolutely no criticism for this, because she truly is that amazing.

But it's fine when Trump behaves this way, right? How about you remember that when he sits and gives himself a 10 for his efforts in Puerto Rico, or when he shoves a foreign dignitary (PM of Montenegro) out of the way so he can try to get himself up front and center for a group photo at the G20 Summit? Or when he uses the Office of the President for his own financial gains, and sits and brags about it to anyone who will listen? That's just scratching the surface of the amount of self-aggrandizing Trump cranks out - on Twitter alone.

Or should all applaud him and he deserves absolutely no criticism for any of this, because he truly is that amazing?

What Trump does daily is much worse than anything Congresswoman Frederica Wilson did last week.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Zola
forgot a word

[Palimpsest]

3 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

The author of your link is worth checking out.

It is Kate Germano.  She's well known.  My opinion is that she was forced out for speaking the truth about how shamefully women are treated in the military.  This has been well documented by other people too. 

So much for Kelly's lament that women are no longer "sacred."

[OtterRuletheWorld]

2 minutes ago, Zola said:

But it's fine when Trump behaves this way, right? How about you remember that when he sits and gives himself a 10 for his efforts in Puerto Rico, or when he shoves a foreign dignitary (PM of Montenegro) out of the way so he can try to get himself up front and center for a group photo at the G20 Summit? Or when he uses the Office of the President for his own financial gains, and sits and brags about it to anyone who will listen? That's the scratching the surface of the amount of self-aggrandizing Trump cranks out - on Twitter alone.

Or should all applaud him and he deserves absolutely no criticism for any of this, because he truly is that amazing?

What Trump does daily is much worse than anything Congresswoman Frederica Wilson did last week.

But it doesn't make what Wilson did in 2015 okay. Trump can be "much worse" but claiming he is "much worse" is hardly claiming that what she did was entirely acceptable.  Or is it forbidden to criticize her simply because she spoke out against Trump. Which is hardly something special or brave. It is clearly the norm, and while I am okay with that, it doesn't exempt those who speak out against Trump from criticism.

9 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

It is Kate Germano.  She's well known.  My opinion is that she was forced out for speaking the truth about how shamefully women are treated in the military.  This has been well documented by other people too. 

So much for Kelly's lament that women are no longer "sacred."

Sure, and who cares about her victim-blaming and causing women to be fearful of stepping forward in a very male driven setting. NBD.

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

But it doesn't make what Wilson did in 2015 okay.

I don't see that what Wilson did in 2015 was bad at all.  Perhaps you should review what she actually said as opposed to what Kelly lied about.  The video is easily available.

6 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Sure, and who cares about her victim-blaming and causing women to be fearful of stepping forward in a very male driven setting. NBD.

That is your perspective on the situation and about as reliable as your opinion of Rep.  Wilson.  I disagree with it.  So does the NYT in a balanced article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/us/marine-commanders-firing-stirs-debate-on-integration-of-women-in-corps.html?_r=0

[Zola]

11 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

But it doesn't make what Wilson did in 2015 okay. Trump can be "much worse" but claiming he is "much worse" is hardly claiming that what she did was entirely acceptable.  Or is it forbidden to criticize her simply because she spoke out against Trump. Which is hardly something special or brave. It is clearly the norm, and while I am okay with that, it doesn't exempt those who speak out against Trump from criticism.

John Kelly lied about what she did in 2015. Start reading something that isn't from a Trump/Republican site.

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/21/john-kelly-trump-black-women-frederica-wilson-myeshia-johnson/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/frederica-wilson-donald-trump-gold-star-call-cnntv/index.html

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-chief-of-staff-john-kelly-lied-in-attack-on-rep-wilson-1078328387890

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/us/politics/trump-kelly-congresswoman-wilson-niger.html

 

Apparently Trump and Kelly think it should be forbidden to speak out against Trump (and now Kelly as well, per SHS), and based on your posts, you do too. Despite what they think or say or do, neither Trump nor Kelly are exempt from criticism. That seems to be the whole crux of your argument here: you have endless criticism for anyone who isn't Kelly or Trump but none for them.

No one in politics is exempt from criticism. You need to frame it in the correct perspective, though. Should I be more upset about what amounts to a lie concerning a Congresswoman, or should I be more upset about the president and a four-star general lying in the first place?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Zola

[OtterRuletheWorld]

18 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I thought you promised us that you were leaving this conversation? A proper Harry Potter fan keeps their promises.

I guess I am not a proper Harry Potter fan? I don't know what this means.

But, after I "promised" to leave this conversation, I changed my mind and "explained myself" or whatever it was that was being asked of me. Sorry that I am annoying you with my responses that don't exactly fit your duty to resist.

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

I don't see that what Wilson did in 2015 was bad at all.  Perhaps you should review what she actually said as opposed to what Kelly lied about.  The video is easily available.

That is your perspective on the situation and about as reliable as your opinion of Rep.  Wilson.  I disagree with it.  So does the NYT in a balanced article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/us/marine-commanders-firing-stirs-debate-on-integration-of-women-in-corps.html?_r=0

Well, if the NYT disagrees, I should too!!

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Sorry that I am annoying you with my responses that don't exactly fit your duty to resist.

I don't know what this means.  You are trying to be annoying, that's all.  It is called trolling.  

[OtterRuletheWorld]

2 minutes ago, Zola said:

John Kelly lied about what she did in 2015. Start reading something that isn't from a Trump/Republican site.

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/21/john-kelly-trump-black-women-frederica-wilson-myeshia-johnson/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/frederica-wilson-donald-trump-gold-star-call-cnntv/index.html

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-chief-of-staff-john-kelly-lied-in-attack-on-rep-wilson-1078328387890

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/us/politics/trump-kelly-congresswoman-wilson-niger.html

 

Apparently Trump and Kelly think it should be forbidden to speak out against Trump (and now Kelly as well, per SHS), and based on your posts, you do too. Despite what they think or say or do, neither Trump nor Kelly are exempt from criticism. That seems to be the whole crux of your argument here: you have endless criticism for anyone who isn't Kelly or Trump but none for them.

No one in politics is exempt from criticism. You need to frame it in the correct perspective, though. Should I be more upset about what amounts to a lie concerning a Congresswoman, or should I be more upset about the president and a four-star general lying about her in the first place?

I haven't ever said Trump is exempt from criticism. Criticize away. You certainly don't need my permission. Criticize both, but Kelly is allowed to speak of his son when he wants, Kelly told Trump what was said to him if he choose to speak to the families and Trump essentially said that.  Because of all of this, the whole thing is a much bigger deal than any of you are making it out to be. It certainly is not an impeachable offense. 

[Palimpsest]

9 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Well, if the NYT disagrees, I should too!!

No you can think what you like.  You only seem to believe very right wing news sources though.  You are rather a boring troll.

4 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Because of all of this, the whole thing is a much bigger deal than any of you are making it out to be. It certainly is not an impeachable offense. 

I think Trump and Kelly lying (unlike Rep. Wilson) is a really big deal - and sooner or later Trump will commit an impeachable offense.  Or has done already.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Palimpsest

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I would hardly go on and on if people were a bit more friendly with their conversation. I am always open for a debate. This seems more like an interview. One with a group of interviewees asking the same question repeatedly, twisting answers, and making false accusations. If I am a troll, you are all enjoying it. I was criticized for calling the president the president ffs. That is the reality of America right now.

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

No you can think what you like.  You only seem to believe very right wing news sources though.  You are rather a boring troll.

I think Trump and Kelly lying (unlike Rep. Wilson) is a really big deal - and sooner or later Trump will commit an impeachable offense.  Or has done already.

Such a boring troll that you "downvoted" post after post of mine, commented and commented and so forth. I think I am proud of my negative votes.

[Destiny]

10 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Sorry that I am annoying you with my responses that don't exactly fit your duty to resist.

@Palimpsest, she was addressing my avatar, the sweet summer of 60 child that she is. 

Yes. I do believe it's my duty to resist. It's my duty to resist a president that is espousing policies that will take health care from millions. It's my duty to resist a president that thinks grab them by the pussy is ok. It's my duty to resist a president that says Nazis are good people. It's my duty to resist a president that says Mexicans are rapists and murderers. It's my duty to resist a president that is trying to take a woman's right to choose, and access to birth control. It's my duty to resist a president that can't stop fucking harassing Gold Star families. It's my duty to resist a president that is talking shit about a mayor in a disaster struck city for political gain. It's my duty to resist a president that can't fucking stop lying. It's my duty to resist a president that is trying to take rights away from my best friend, who happens to be gay. It's my duty to resist a president that is trying to take rights from transgender Americans. 

I could go on, but what's the point? Of course it's my duty to resist because I'm a fucking decent human being. Why aren't you?

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I would hardly go on and on if people were a bit more friendly with their conversation.

Most people leave when they find the conversation unfriendly.  Trolls don't.

You are not debating.  You are tossing out stupid arguments and refusing to admit what you actually believe.

So if you don't like the NYT what are your favorite news sources?

1 minute ago, Destiny said:

Palimpsest, she was addressing my avatar, the sweet summer of 60 child that she is. 

Oh got it! After the canned chicken and all the JRod avatars I stopped looking at them out of self-preservation. 

 

[Destiny]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Oh got it! After the canned chicken and all the JRod avatars I stopped looking at them out of self-preservation. 

Smart lol. @formergothardite's makes me cringe every time, in a good way. :-D

[Zola]

5 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

So if you don't like the NYT what are your favorite news sources?

She seemed to have been more or less rephrasing some info from a Fox News article yesterday. At the end of both her post and the article, a certain video was suggested viewing material. No comment on the video as I have not seen it, but I found it rather coincidental that both her post and that article ended by recommending the exact same title.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Zola

[Destiny]

2 minutes ago, Zola said:

She seemed to have been more or less rephrasing some info from a Fox News article yesterday. At the end of both her post and the article, a certain video was suggested viewing material. No comment on the video as I have not seen it, but I found it rather coincidental that both her post and article ended by recommending the exact same title.

Faux News has done more damage to this country than anything else I can think of. :/

[Ali]

And now there are pink weens avatars. When I was pregnant, that chicken made my morning sickness worse. I blame my pregnancy aversion to chicken on that avatar.

[Zola]

1 minute ago, Ali said:

And now there are pink weens avatars. When I was pregnant, that chicken made my morning sickness worse. I blame my pregnancy aversion to chicken on that avatar.

JRod is my jam, but that pink ween business is too much for me. I was so relieved when Bro Gary got his own thread and JRod's went back to discussion of baby cages, layers of hairspray in the RV, Plexus pimping, Nurie and Kaylee visibly thriving at the Pearls, and, of course, boys in suits appearing out of nowhere like miniature morticians in the house tour video...good times.

[Palimpsest]

14 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Such a boring troll that you "downvoted" post after post of mine, commented and commented and so forth. I think I am proud of my negative votes.

Ah, but that Fuck You vote is very satisfying.  I so seldom get a chance to use it.

Back on topic:  I thought this article was excellent. although Otter won't like it.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/zorn/ct-perspec-zorn-kelly-frederica-wilson-apology-1025-20171024-story.html

Spoiler

<snip>

Alas for Kelly, the South Florida Sun-Sentinel located a video of Wilson’s nine-minute, roughly 1,000-word speech that day. A review of that video reveals:

1. Wilson did not mention funding for the building, much less take credit for securing it. (Congress appropriated the money before she was elected.)

2. Wilson did not claim to have spoken to Obama or to have any pull with him.

3. Though Wilson did devote about 300 words near the beginning of her speech to explaining how she led the effort in Congress to expedite the naming process for the building, she pointedly shared credit with then-House Speaker John Boehner, a Republican, Rep. Carlos Luis Curbelo, R-Fla., Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., as well as Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla.

She was justified in taking a small bow. As then-FBI Director James Comey said in his remarks from the stage that day. "Wilson truly did the impossible, and we are eternally grateful.”

Nevertheless, Wilson said in her speech, the point was that the rapid action in Washington spoke “to the respect our Congress has for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.”

4. She did not sit down after finishing this story, as Kelly claimed. Indeed she spoke for nearly five more minutes, honoring the bravery of Grogan, Dove and all first responders — “Stand up now,” she said to the men and women of law enforcement in the audience, “so that we can applaud you and what you do. Stand up! We are proud of you. We are proud of your courage.”

She said, “Today it is our patriotic duty to lift up Special Agent Benjamin Grogan and Special Agent Jerry Dove from the streets of South Florida, and place their names and pictures high where the world will know that we are proud of their sacrifice — sacrifice for our nation ...

“Special Agents Grogan and Dove embody the sacred motto for which the agency has become known. Please repeat it after me. Fidelity. Bravery. And integrity.”

She concluded “God bless the FBI. And God bless America.”

I can think of no charitable reason that Kelly found this speech empty or unpleasantly stunning, or that he got so much wrong in his retelling.

At best, he was extremely careless with the truth when he embroidered his account with specifics that he didn’t recall accurately. At worst he flat-out lied in an effort to deflect criticism of his boss, thinking there wouldn’t be a video record to expose his treacherous deceit.

Either way it reflected poorly on him. An apology was in order and would have gone some distance in maintaining his moral standing — as a retired Marine general who has lost a son to war, Kelly came to the White House in late July with the presumption that he was a disciplined, ethical, serious person.

His failure in the days since to apologize to Wilson or correct the record has been surprising, disappointing and scary.

Surprising and disappointing because many of us hoped Kelly would be a stabilizing force in the West Wing, the Trump whisperer who moderated the rash, narcissistic and mendacious president. Instead, Kelly showed himself to be yet another enabler ready to throw away his reputation for momentary political advantage.

Scary because his refusal to apologize signals that he shares Trump’s stubbornness, vindictiveness and lack of humility, traits that can lead a nation headlong into nuclear conflict.

Seriously.

Kelly was supposed to be the man of integrity and reflection — the foot on the brake, not the pedal to the metal.

 

[VelociRapture]

14 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Faux News has done more damage to this country than anything else I can think of. :/

Facebook is pretty up there too, along with Twitter. Both those social media sites contributed to the current political climate through legitimately fake news stories generated and circulated by the Russians as well as not taking a firm stand against a lot of the hateful rhetoric coming out of the right these days - see Twitter refusing to shut down Trump’s personal account.