John Kelly -- Bringing Order to the West Wing?

[nvmbr02]

37 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

 

Yes, but during the 2008 election, it was a different story.

Of course there are always sane people who will behave properly, but nobody cared when McCain was slandered during election season and he was running for president.

I disagree with your statement. Yes, some people did attack McCain's service record during the election in 2008. They have during every election he has run in, as far back as I can remember. The same happened to John Kerry and really anyone who has ran for office in recent years. But while some people attack their service records (on both sides on the aisle) many other people (including journalist, politicians and everyday voters have taken the high road and have chosen not to attack military service records. Donald Trump is not one of those people. I really can't say how anyone could think anything he says to or about our service members is in any way genuine. 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

50 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And you never would say he was disrespectful and has disrespected gold star families in the past. Why? Again this is a debate and I'm  asking you to explain your side. You have had ample opportunities to say trump has disrespected  gold star families  but each time you refuse. Why? Do you not feel he has treated some gold star families with disrespect?

Do you feel Kelly should apologize  for lying  about Wilson?

I refuse to engage with you further.  You know how I feel about this situation and you don't like it. That is fine. You don't need to like it and we clearly agree. I am going to agree to disagree and not continue. I have no desire to explain myself to you further.

I was looking back at the thread and it is just absurd. I was even asked about a Muslim Ban FFS. I also find it rude that someone felt the need to ask me that because of my citizenship status. WTF!?

[Gobsmacked]

8 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

He(Re: Orange fuckface) just REALLY hates black women.

He hates women. Be they black,white or sky blue pink with yellow dots on. If a person is female, with a brain AND a career he can't stand them. The only female he likes is Ivanka. He is just downright creepy in his liking for her. 

[GrumpyGran]

@OtterRuletheWorld, you are right, this is the John Kelly thread and I will re-iterate my original comment that I was disgusted by Kelly coming out and making a public statement, with high indignation and insult, that it was just terrible that Frederika Wilson was listening to the conversation that took place between Trump and Myeshia Johnson.

I find that strange as he apparently was also listening to the conversation. And I am unaware that there are rules as to who can hear a conversation with the president.

I am happy that Natasha de Alencar was satisfied with the conversation she had with Trump back in the spring, I assume, as her husband died in April. But I have not heard Kelly chastise her for making this very private conversation, as I believe he called it, public. Nor have I heard that he scolded the military member who was obviously sitting with her for remaining in the room while the conversation took place. It is, in my opinion, her right to have whomever she wishes there and to release the video if she chooses. I just don't understand why Myeshia Johnson can't also have whomever she chooses with her and make public her feelings regarding her conversation with the president.

Natasha de Alencar did not simply release a statement, she released a video. Her right, absolutely. And Myeshia chose to speak through a family friend, as her response to Trump's call came the day after and she is understandably still in the early and confusing stages of her grief. The only difference I see is that one was complimentary to Trump and the other wasn't. And Kelly made a specific public statement about the one that was critical.

And I join with @VelociRapture in wanting to see more information on the 2011 Obama situation you referenced before I comment on it, as I can't find much information, other than the fact that he did indeed meet the aircraft at Dover.

[Cartmann99]

55 minutes ago, GrumpyGran said:

I am happy that Natasha de Alencar was satisfied with the conversation she had with Trump back in the spring, I assume, as her husband died in April. But I have not heard Kelly chastise her for making this very private conversation, as I believe he called it, public.

This is an excellent point, @GrumpyGran! I hadn't even put it together that Mrs. de Alencar had released a video and received no criticism, but when a close friend of the Johnson family related her account of the call made to Mrs. Johnson, it was like a priest had started sharing what he heard during confession. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Unfortunately, I do not think caskets can be opened during a dignified transfer. The transfer and notification processes are VERY strict. It wasn't until 2009 that the press was allowed to be at a transfer and that is only if families agree.  In fact, the Obama administration released a photo of Obama saluting caskets in 2011, although 19 of 30 families had stated they did not want the press there. Due to those 19 families requesting no photography or press, the Pentagon dictated no images could be taken. I am not blaming President Obama for this misstep, but it was still wrong. This was the worst single loss of military personal during the, at the time, 10 year war. Those families were very upset I know you all dislike me, but you should really watch Taking Chance if you have not. I believe it is on netflix, but I also suggest having tissues ready.

The no press policy was introduced by Bush sr, some say to protect families privacy, others say for more obscure reasons. Obama administration changed the policy in 2009 and pics of the president saluting only those coffins that carried the bodies whose families authorised it were published. In the 2011 episode the remains after the helicopter crash were in such a bad shape that despite being divided in different caskets nobody could know which casket contained whose body. Fox News itself reported the incident you refer at in a very different way. You just omitted some teeny little details, such as that only one picture was made public and it didn't include any coffin, just the silhouette of the president saluting on a blurred background.

But of course you had to bring this up, because it's totally comparable to what Trump did to the Khan family and to La David Johnson's family. Only in your mind dear.

6 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

The current "ban" includes North Korea and Venezuela. I personally know many Venezuelans and Cubans who are entirely happy with the current "bans"

Cubans are not affected by the ban and Venezuela is under different conditions that will affect a small number of people. 

Spoiler

Seven of the countries face wide-ranging restrictions, which effectively block travel for most citizens, while the limits imposed on Venezuela will only apply to a group of government officials and their families.

It remains a ban that targets black and brownish Muslims. Wuth the exception of those North Koreans who should make it out of NK. Btw it's patently clear to everyone except you how Venezuela and NK were added to the ban in its third draft just to overcome the objections raised by the courts.

6 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Geographically speaking, I think the US needs to keep it's priority with Latin America. The EU isn't jumping up and down to take in Latin American immigrants or refugees. I don't blame them for that, but I do think their focus should remain on immigrants who are from nations closer to them.

ETA: Because I hit send by accident.

I want to be clear that I would love for all people to live in a world that gives humans as many rights as they have. I understand the appeal of the United States, but I also realize that America isn't a nation that has open borders and has a process that can take time. I do however know that a Muslim from Bosnia can apply for US citizenship, so, it isn't a "We ban all Muslims" kind of ban. Sure, it causes hardship and I am saddened by that for any human, but I will be more likely to speak out if it every becomes an actual "Ban all Muslims from entering America" travel ban. That would obviously be a shitty thing.

So geographically speaking Europe should take care of the ones nearer to its borders, all those black and brown Muslims from Africa and ME. But it's fine for the US to take in white Muslims from Bosnia. Makes sense. You know where Bosnia is, right?

Btw the next time the EU will start a war with let's say Paraguay over non existent MDWs or with let's say Chile for hosting a terrorist that was in Argentina all the while or will sell 100bns worth of arms to Brazil to annihilate Uruguay, then we may consider jumping up and down to take in refugees from South America.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

the Gold Star families opinions ALL matter, and I would expect they would all have differing opinions because they are all different people, from different backgrounds.

Can you pretty please point out an occasion when Obama was criticised by a gold star family and he leashed out at them? I can take examples with his chief of staff too shouldn't you find one of Obama himself.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

3 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

This was hardly the first time McCain's POW record was attacked. Still, no excuse from Trump, but the left suddenly loving McCain and caring about his being a Prisoner of War was positively not a thing in 2008. It was something that tugged on the heartstrings of Americans and when it became a topic during the election in 2008, it was torn apart.

Can you please find a quote of Obama himself trashing McCain PoW record? No? Well, I think I would accept a quote from his chief of staff, or his veep or any surrogate really. Still no?

4 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Because I happen to have no idea what a shitty leader is. 

This sentence is dripping with sarcasm. Now I am curious, what are you referring at?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I was even asked about a Muslim Ban FFS. I also find it rude that someone felt the need to ask me that because of my citizenship status. WTF!?

Well you're an immigrant that likes to say "but Obama" every time someone criticises Trump, so I was curious to know what you think about a travel ban that targets other immigrants. Why are you shocked?

[nvmbr02]

24 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Can you please find a quote of Obama himself trashing McCain PoW record? No? Well, I think I would accept a quote from his chief of staff, or his veep or any surrogate really. Still no?

 

The closest I could find when I was looking earlier was a quote from Gen.  Wesley Clark that stated something to the effect of I don't think getting shot down makes you a battle tested leader/ is a reason you should be president.  Gen. Clark did work for the campaign at the time. As far as I remember Obama didn't back up the general's statement and basically said he wasn't going to question McCain's patriotism. It really isn't much of an "attack" in my opinion. 

I would look up the exact quotes again but we have a tropical storm passing by and our internet is slllooow right now. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by nvmbr02

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

The no press policy was introduced by Bush sr, some say to protect families privacy, others say for more obscure reasons. Obama administration changed the policy in 2009 and pics of the president saluting only those coffins that carried the bodies whose families authorised it were published. In the 2011 episode the remains after the helicopter crash were in such a bad shape that despite being divided in different caskets nobody could know which casket contained whose body. Fox News itself reported the incident you refer at in a very different way. You just omitted some teeny little details, such as that only one picture was made public and it didn't include any coffin, just the silhouette of the president saluting on a blurred background.

But of course you had to bring this up, because it's totally comparable to what Trump did to the Khan family and to La David Johnson's family. Only in your mind dear.

Wow. I came here to discuss entirely different things. Yet this entire post has me beyond floored. Regardless of what was in the photo, it was still a photo of him at the dignified transfer, there was a media ban. The WH released the photo stating it was a photo from this dignified transfer. I have no reason to omit anything from this story. It should not have happened. That really is not up for debate. There is absolutely no reason to share this photo and violate the families wishes, other than for political gain. If the families had approved of it, fine, use it as a moment to share with the American public as a reminder of what service members do for their nation, but if the family(ies) do not approve, there is absolutely no benefit in releasing this photo.  You said you are not American. Do you have an interaction with the US military, or even your own nations military? Are you friends with any service members? If one of these people were a friend of yours and were upset the photo was released, how would you feel about it?

I think this was disrespectful. I am sure Obama felt something during these moments, but it was opportunistic of the WH to release this photo. Obama loved Pete Souza, as I am sure we are all aware. The public generally loved Souza's photographs, so I am not shocked it was released, but it was still wrong.

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Cubans are not affected by the ban and Venezuela is under different conditions that will affect a small number of people. 

I am well aware Cubans are not affected by the bans. I never said that, but I can kind of see where you may have thought I said that. Iraq, for example, was removed from from the ban after leaders expressed outrage and Iraq agreed to work with the United States immigration on US terms. Syria and North Korea are the only two of the current 8 countries to have a "full ban" in part, because both are obviously not working with the US. Essentially, if conditions change, statuses can change. I suppose if Switzerland ever becomes unwilling to work with us, refuses to adopt sane treatment of Humans (looking at you NK), or poses some other serious threat, he could ban Switzerland.  This by no means is a defense of the ban or that I am taking any sort of stance in what we should label this ban as.

But back to the Cuban part, many Cuban Americans and Venezuelan Americans work together and have a lot of political ideals that are alike. For Obvious reasons. I also brought up the ending of the ending of the "wet feet, dry feet" policy.

You won't find me doing cartwheels over any "travel ban" or changes that negatively impact any group of immigrant groups. I do however try to look at the past relationship with each nation, the current situation and what possible options each nation has to change it's status in the future. If there is a clear path to a positive change, I am okay with that.  I don't believe it should be assumed that the US accepts all without question.
 

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Seven of the countries face wide-ranging restrictions, which effectively block travel for most citizens, while the limits imposed on Venezuela will only apply to a group of government officials and their families.

It remains a ban that targets black and brownish Muslims. Wuth the exception of those North Koreans who should make it out of NK. Btw it's patently clear to everyone except you how Venezuela and NK were added to the ban in its third draft just to overcome the objections raised by the courts.

 

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

So geographically speaking Europe should take care of the ones nearer to its borders, all those black and brown Muslims from Africa and ME. But it's fine for the US to take in white Muslims from Bosnia. Makes sense. You know where Bosnia is, right?

I do know where Bosnia is....

Bosnian/US relations are positive. Bosnia has applied for membership to the EU.

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2868.htm

 

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Btw the next time the EU will start a war with let's say Paraguay over non existent MDWs or with let's say Chile for hosting a terrorist that was in Argentina all the while or will sell 100bns worth of arms to Brazil to annihilate Uruguay, then we may consider jumping up and down to take in refugees from South America.

Right. Except Iraq and Afghanistan are not on the list at this point. Although Libya is.

And it is hardly like anyone has ever decided to flee from Europe. Europe is the beacon of love and acceptance of course. Such a kind a loving history. Even keeping doors open so lovingly for Bosnian refugees. Never ever sending them off to the United States, further away from their families. Never.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Wow. I came here to discuss entirely different things. Yet this entire post has me beyond floored. Regardless of what was in the photo, it was still a photo of him at the dignified transfer, there was a media ban. The WH released the photo stating it was a photo from this dignified transfer. I have no reason to omit anything from this story. It should not have happened. That really is not up for debate. There is absolutely no reason to share this photo and violate the families wishes, other than for political gain. If the families had approved of it, fine, use it as a moment to share with the American public as a reminder of what service members do for their nation, but if the family(ies) do not approve, there is absolutely no benefit in releasing this photo. 

The media wasn't there at all. The rules implemented in 2009 say that the media can take pictures only of the caskets carrying bodies whose families give authorisation. Some of the families gave authorisation, others didn't, but since it wasn't possible to determine whose remains were in which casket no pics of the caskets could be authorised. Media asked to take pictures of the airplane and of the president at the airport as no rule forbids taking pictures of things other than the caskets and the families. The Pentagon, rightly denied permission because it could easily have gone bad. The WH official photographer took one picture that didn't breach the rules and the WH chose to share it. For all I know it may have been a way to respect the will of those who wanted to have a lasting reminder of their president paying respect to their beloved relatives. Bet you didn't think of that. In any case I am sorry that apparently some families felt disrespected (even if the only ones who referred at the episode as controversial were fox news reporters and even they offered a more balanced account than yours) and I am glad to notice that nor the former president nor his staff took the time to tweet offences to them.

[Childless]

Of course Trump would attack Mrs. Johnson.  She had the gall to criticize him.  And you know he hates that.  Trump cares about only one person in this world, Trump.  It's no secret that he's a narcissistic asshole.  His lashing out at Mrs. Johnson and Rep. Wilson is not surprising.  What is surprising are the actions of Gen. Kelly.  I'm stunned that he would shame the widow of a fallen soldier, blatantly lie about a Congressional representative, and just all around make a fool of himself on national TV.  It seems very unbecoming of someone in his position and smacks of politicizing what should be a somber situation.  It was disrespectful on both his and Trump's part.  I expect such childish behavior from Trump (and how sad is that statement).  I don't expect it from someone who is supposed to be the adult at the WH.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

You said you are not American. Do you have an interaction with the US military, or even your own nations military? Are you friends with any service members? If one of these people were a friend of yours and were upset the photo was released, how would you feel about it?

I am Italian. And the cultural differences on this topic are YUGE, trust me. I went to university with two veterans helicopter pilots that couldn't fly anymore for sight problems and were reshaping their career. So yes I know military people personally and as a default I don't have for them an ounce of respect in addition to what I have for every other human being doing any other job. And there are quite a number of jobs that I respect more actually. My culture doesn't share the typical American rhetoric on military, here military people are looked at with indifference or sometimes slight suspicion, different culture, different history. In our Constitution we repudiate war in any circumstance other than for defence, we stretch it quite a lot actually taking part into UN peacekeeping programs.

Also I have personally known a couple of US soldiers deployed in a big base in Northern Italy that is less than 30 km from where I live. I only met them once as friends of friends and have nothing to say about them other than they shouldn't be here. We shouldn't have foreign bases on our soil, we have an Army we pay dearly for, we have been a democracy and a reliable ally for seventy years, there's no reason at all for their presence here.

One last thing, and I know this may well be unpopular, I hold military personnel personally responsible for what they do, the "they ordered me to do this and they said it was the right thing to do" excuse doesn't cut it. Wrong wars aren't fought without soldiers.  I know that it doesn't matter in which war you lose a family member, it's a loss and hurts like hell. I had the luck to get to know my great grandmother, after  fifty years she still grieved her eldest son who died in WWII, on a fascist ship. His body was never recovered and she would have done and given anything to have his body back and a tomb where to cry.

Her other nearly adult son, my grandfather, was some years younger and when he was sent to fight in Cassino he threw himself out of the marching train, captured, spent months in the military jail, he could have ended in a concentration camp in Germany with the many soldiers who refused to fight after 8th September 1943. But he chose to be cannon fodder in Vicenza airport, his job was to retrieve the unexploded bombs dropped by the airplanes around the airport and the military installations there. He accepted because in this way he wasn't far from home. He came back alive even if his health, both physical and mental, was never the same.

With all this I mean to say that being a hero doesn't mean wearing an uniform of the right country, respect must be earned, always. And earning respect wearing an uniform may be harder than in some other ways, but just wearing the uniform doesn't make you worth of respect above any other human being.

[Childless]

16 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I am Italian. And the cultural differences on this topic are YUGE, trust me. I went to university with two veterans helicopter pilots that couldn't fly anymore for sight problems and were reshaping their career. So yes I know military people personally and as a default I don't have for them an ounce of respect in addition to what I have for every other human being doing any other job. And there are quite a number of jobs that I respect more actually. My culture doesn't share the typical American rhetoric on military, here military people are looked at with indifference or sometimes slight suspicion, different culture, different history. In our Constitution we repudiate war in any circumstance other than for defence, we stretch it quite a lot actually taking part into UN peacekeeping programs.

Also I have personally known a couple of US soldiers deployed in a big base in Northern Italy that is less than 30 km from where I live. I only met them once as friends of friends and have nothing to say about them other than they shouldn't be here. We shouldn't have foreign bases on our soil, we have an Army we pay dearly for, we have been a democracy and a reliable ally for seventy years, there's no reason at all for their presence here.

One last thing, and I know this may well be unpopular, I hold military personnel personally responsible for what they do, the "they ordered me to do this and they said it was the right thing to do" excuse doesn't cut it. Wrong wars aren't fought without soldiers.  I know that it doesn't matter in which war you lose a family member, it's a loss and hurts like hell. I had the luck to get to know my great grandmother, after  fifty years she still grieved her eldest son who died in WWII, on a fascist ship. His body was never recovered and she would have done and given anything to have his body back and a tomb where to cry.

Her other nearly adult son, my grandfather, was some years younger and when he was sent to fight in Cassino he threw himself out of the marching train, captured, spent months in the military jail, he could have ended in a concentration camp in Germany with the many soldiers who refused to fight after 8th September 1943. But he chose to be cannon fodder in Vicenza airport, his job was to retrieve the unexploded bombs dropped by the airplanes around the airport and the military installations there. He accepted because in this way he wasn't far from home. He came back alive even if his health, both physical and mental, was never the same.

With all this I mean to say that being a hero doesn't mean wearing an uniform of the right country, respect must be earned, always. And earning respect wearing an uniform may be harder than in some other ways, but just wearing the uniform doesn't make you worth of respect above any other human being.

Yes, thank you!  It irks me when people expect others to do things like applaud soldiers in airports/give up seats on planes for them/send them care packages/etc.  If you want to do that, then fine.  But insisting people do it bothers me.  It also bothers me that no one applauds for others who sacrifice like members of the Peace Corp or doctors, who could live cushy lives in a first world country, risking their safety to work with Doctors Without Borders for no pay.  There are a lot of people who sacrifice for the common good and we don't fall all over ourselves when they're in the vicinity.  This weird, almost reverent worship Americans have for the military baffles me.  And I'm American!

[nvmbr02]

1 minute ago, Childless said:

  This weird, almost reverent worship Americans have for the military baffles me.  And I'm American!

Honestly it baffles me too and I am an American veteran. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

 

I am well aware Cubans are not affected by the bans. I never said that, but I can kind of see where you may have thought I said that. Iraq, for example, was removed from from the ban after leaders expressed outrage and Iraq agreed to work with the United States immigration on US terms. Syria and North Korea are the only two of the current 8 countries to have a "full ban" in part, because both are obviously not working with the US. Essentially, if conditions change, statuses can change. I suppose if Switzerland ever becomes unwilling to work with us, refuses to adopt sane treatment of Humans (looking at you NK), or poses some other serious threat, he could ban Switzerland.  This by no means is a defense of the ban or that I am taking any sort of stance in what we should label this ban as.

But back to the Cuban part, many Cuban Americans and Venezuelan Americans work together and have a lot of political ideals that are alike. For Obvious reasons. I also brought up the ending of the ending of the "wet feet, dry feet" policy.

You won't find me doing cartwheels over any "travel ban" or changes that negatively impact any group of immigrant groups. I do however try to look at the past relationship with each nation, the current situation and what possible options each nation has to change it's status in the future. If there is a clear path to a positive change, I am okay with that.  I don't believe it should be assumed that the US accepts all without question.

 

I have no idea why you brought up the Cubans. Oh now I got it! For the same reasons Trump put Venezuela and NK in the third version of the travel ban. Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Let me recap you reasoning somersaults. If Switzerland stops respecting its citizens human rights, the US should enact a travel ban towards Swiss citizens. As long as the Swiss state respects its citizens rights and they don't risk to become refugees, they are free to apply for visas to the US. It must make sense in an alternative facts universe. Can we call it Conway universe? The same universe in which the US accepted immigrants without questions before Trump's ban.

[VelociRapture]

@laPapessaGiovannaThank you for explaining about the 2011 transfer! I tried googling and found absolutely nothing controversial, so I was pretty confused.

I am very sorry if any of those families were upset that even one photo was taken during that time. However, it appears that the rules were followed and that things proceeded as respectfully as possible given the circumstances. I don’t think this is a valid comparison to what has been done to Myeshia Johnson at all - and I don’t think it’s likely anyone will find a valid comparison from past Presidents either. Most of them seemed to understand what their main responsibility was - to comfort the family and allow them to grieve however they needed to. Some Presidents (like George W.) dealt with a lot of seriously angry families, but you never saw them lash out at anyone. 

[formergothardite]

Saying you won't call a president lying to a gold star family and calling gold star wife a liar disrespectful  because it would mean you were agreeing  with me makes as much sense as saying that you can't  call a guy who brags about sexually  assaulting women loathsome  because  you aren't an American  citizen.

 What are your thoughts on Kelly lying about Wilson?

[GrumpyGran]

7 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

Wow. I came here to discuss entirely different things. Yet this entire post has me beyond floored.

I too am floored because I seem to recall you specifically asking me my opinion on Obama's presence at the 2011 transfer. @laPapessaGiovanna was simply attempting to answer some of my questions, something you had not yet done.

It also seems you have changed your story about this event. My impression, that I drew from your earlier post, was that Obama had pictures taken with the caskets of these soldiers. Now it appears that is not true. Now you say you are offended because Obama, someone you claim to have a neutral opinion of, yet continue to criticize here, had a picture taken when he was at the dignified transfer and made it public. I can find no evidence of pictures of Obama with the caskets at this event. I can find several pictures of Mike Pence with the casket during a dignified transfer and I will assume the family approved of it.

I also wonder if you have the same disdain for President Trump. He showed up at the dignified transfer for Ryan Owens on February 1 with his daughter Ivanka in tow despite the fact that the Owens family had requested no bystanders at the transfer. Ryan's father was unaware that Trump would be there and did not wish to see him as he was upset about the raid in Yemen where his son died.

And circling back, this is the John Kelly thread and I asked your opinion on why Mrs Johnson's actions should be criticized by Kelly and Mrs de Alencar's should not.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

3 hours ago, GrumpyGran said:

I too am floored because I seem to recall you specifically asking me my opinion on Obama's presence at the 2011 transfer. @laPapessaGiovanna was simply attempting to answer some of my questions, something you had not yet done.

It also seems you have changed your story about this event. My impression, that I drew from your earlier post, was that Obama had pictures taken with the caskets of these soldiers. Now it appears that is not true. Now you say you are offended because Obama, someone you claim to have a neutral opinion of, yet continue to criticize here, had a picture taken when he was at the dignified transfer and made it public. I can find no evidence of pictures of Obama with the caskets at this event. I can find several pictures of Mike Pence with the casket during a dignified transfer and I will assume the family approved of it.

I also wonder if you have the same disdain for President Trump. He showed up at the dignified transfer for Ryan Owens on February 1 with his daughter Ivanka in tow despite the fact that the Owens family had requested no bystanders at the transfer. Ryan's father was unaware that Trump would be there and did not wish to see him as he was upset about the raid in Yemen where his son died.

And circling back, this is the John Kelly thread and I asked your opinion on why Mrs Johnson's actions should be criticized by Kelly and Mrs de Alencar's should not.

Owens' wife approved him being there, press was authorized to be there, as long as they didn't report on anything until after the transfer. Photos were not released of anything at the transfer, but the media did report on him coming and going. That is ALWAYS done and there isn't really a lot to be done to stop it. 
Owens' wife was the next of kin. His father never approved of the media's presence because he was not asked. That is the way it works. The service member selects his or her next of kin and that person makes decisions asked of them. While making these decisions, a casualty assistance officer is there to help with anything along the way. They are by their side for each of these steps. Very quickly, families are faced with deciding if they want to travel to Dover, etc.
It doesn't matter if caskets were shown or not, the photo was never supposed to be released. I hardly loathe Obama for this, but it was still unacceptable.

12 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Well you're an immigrant that likes to say "but Obama" every time someone criticises Trump, so I was curious to know what you think about a travel ban that targets other immigrants. Why are you shocked?

I said "but Obama" in this one situation.  I don't really place blame on Obama. I do find it interesting that there is sudden outrage when people didn't even notice this happened with Obama. In fact, I am doubtful most even remember the loss of the 30 service members. But that is me speculating.

Edited October 24, 2017 by OtterRuletheWorld
because spelling

[formergothardite]

16 hours ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

You know how I feel about this situation

Actually none of us do. While you have been quick to jump on Obama and Wilson, when it comes to Trump you stay silent. Your silence about it is odd, which is why I questioned you so much. You won't even say if you think it is okay for Kelly to lie about Wilson.

What is it about these two guys where no matter what they do, you won't criticize them? 

Edited October 24, 2017 by formergothardite

[formergothardite]

 

As for Kelly, it seems like he isn't going to apologize for lying. Either he was always this horrible or Trump has corrupted him. Let's say he lied by mistake, the proper thing is to apologize. The longer he stays silent, the worse he looks. 

A good article about Kelly and his "women were sacred"

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Kelly proceeded to state that, when he was growing up, “women were sacred.” 

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The significance of the Weinstein scandal pales in comparison to the state of affairs for women in the military, where one in three are estimated to have been sexually assaulted while on active duty. The problem in the U.S. military is so significant that the United Nations Human Rights Council identified sexual assault and harassment as a human rights violation in 2015.

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When Kelly was on active duty as one of the most senior officers in the Marine Corps, the service experienced the highest rates of sexual harassment and assault of any military branch despite being the smallest and having the fewest women.

 

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But Kelly’s expressed views about women are troublesome and should not be excused or ignored because of his military rank, service, and the loss of his son in combat.

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Kelly’s decision to align his professional reputation with that of a commander in chief who publicly bragged about grabbing women by the genitals represents a troubling character flaw. Clearly, John Kelly doesn’t value women enough to make it a matter of principle not to work with Trump.

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His view that women should be held “sacred” implies they need protection because they are weak, an idea that contributes to negative stereotypes about women and their less-than-equal status in the military.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/10/24/john-kelly-said-women-were-sacred-that-attitude-perpetuates-the-militarys-culture-of-misogyny/?utm_term=.76e71859b2a6

Edited October 24, 2017 by formergothardite

[OtterRuletheWorld]

In regards to the claims the Kelly is a liar, I think calling him a liar is a giant leap given that the point had nothing to do with her getting money for the building/naming the building, but that she stood up and talked about herself at the time.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/22556/did-john-kelly-lie-about-frederica-wilsons-fbi-ben-shapiro

 

[Howl]

I was contemplating Kelly yesterday and thinking back to Michael Misha Flynn and his far-right fringe beliefs and the wacky tweets sent out by his son. 

Before this, I was thinking of Kelly as the honorable soldier who stepped up to save the country from the nutcase Trump.

Could Kelly have a similar set of far-right beliefs and be too disciplined and tight lipped (loose lips sink ships!) to blather on about it on social media?  In other words, he drank from the cup of the Trump Koolaid and is an unbridled Trumpskyite -- then a little of that leaked out when he responded to the brouhaha over Wilson and the phone call. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Howl