Counting On, Season Four Part 5

[MadeItOut]

58 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I'm so very sorry you had to live through that, but I'm extremely grateful that you did live through it and are here to tell about it!

As for the "cowardice" part, though, her situation was different from yours in that her husband's behavior was very VERY public, and she had offers of assistance from her family as well as complete strangers. She had an out - an EASY out - but she didn't take it. 

I appreciate your input on why she probably didn't, and thank you for sharing that horrible part of your life.

Your situation was hidden (and probably very well) by your abusers.

Not all that well at all. Quite apart from our entire church community and much of our town, I lost count of the number of conversations with, among others, police officers (including DV unit officers on multiple occasions) housing department, even the nurse from the abortion clinic - I distinctly remember her. Not only did she hear my response to her question "why do you want this abortion" : "I don't, but my husband is threatening to take my son if I don't" and she saw the force with which he kicked me in the ankle and since she helped me out of my popsocks, there's no way she missed that bruise.

The point is, there simply are no easy outs. DV is so far removed from anything normal that it just cannot be rationalised. If there were any easy way it would not take the typical 35+ rehearsal attempts to get out. Even when you do get near to leaving, knowing you face a world full of people who think you so small is a massive thing at that exhaustion point - and it does often create more delays.

The only things we can really do from outside are:

* talk openly about it wherever possibile

* be aware of how much damage is done by people criticising and labelling someone in their survivor period as stupid/wrong/cowardly/weak etc, attempt not to do it ourselves, and make the way as smooth as we can.

 

[sawasdee]

20 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

My Brit friends are always impressed with a "brick house" because things are different in the UK, where brick-built homes are much more expensive than stick-built. 

I must admit this is not a phenomenon I have noticed. In the UK, we still have a lot of 100+ year old housing stock, and in most big cities it is brick built.  There are terraces upon terraces of them! Even many modern builds are still brick built. Second to brick would come local stone - think of areas like the Cotswolds, Derbyshire, the Lake District, Yorkshire, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen....the stone will usually be limestone, sandstone, granite or portland. Some areas, such as the Lake District, insist new construction be of stone. Blocks of flats that are low rise are also often brick or stone built. High rise are usually prefab concrete of some sort.

I'd say 'stick built' (? does that mean wood?) is very uncommon. Nowadays, a brick built house may have a timber skeleton, for reasons of economy, but when I think wood in the UK I think half timbered - like Shakespeare's Birthplace - and those type cost a fortune!

ETA Some of the older, larger houses are stuccoed, so the fact that they are actually brick is not readily apparent. Twenties/thirties style 'villas' are also aften pebbledashed - again disguising brick.

I love vernacular architecture - I reckon you could blindfold me, put me in a helicopter in the UK, and then put me down, and I would know where I was from the architecture and the materials used!

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

4 hours ago, sawasdee said:

I'd say 'stick built' (? does that mean wood?) is very uncommon. Nowadays, a brick built house may have a timber skeleton, for reasons of economy

Yes, it means wood-framed; most modern US houses are stick built (as are many hotels, apartment buildings, etc.). Many "brick" houses in the US are still stick built - they're just a brick veneer.

[JMO]

Good points about JD being exposed to people outside the house because of the plane and the fire dept. He seems to be given a lot more freedom than any of the other Duggars.  

One thing from the show that keeps bugging me. Ben had discussedpraying to God for help with keeping the courtship standards but never discussed what if anything he didn't follow. I'm assuming he was having impure thoughts but they never acted on them. 

[Eternalbluepearl]

20 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Hopefully the adult children will learn from each other and realize that there are other ways to rear children and not following GotHard won't send you straight to hell. 

I'm guessing this is why JimBob gives his kids' potential suitors huge questionnaires to fill out about themselves and their beliefs. He's trying to weed out anyone who won't follow his rules and beliefs once they marry his child. What makes JimBob think he knows everything about how to be a good person or what personality is better than another? It's arrogant, self-righteous, controlling, and gross. These fundy fathers really do seem to think they are God here on Earth to their children. 

[nst]

9 minutes ago, JMO said:

One thing from the show that keeps bugging me. Ben had discussedpraying to God for help with keeping the courtship standards but never discussed what if anything he didn't follow. I'm assuming he was having impure thoughts but they never acted on them. 

I think he acted on his own in his little room.  I also think living there was hard on him. 

 

[DillyDally]

What a snoozefest! The only interesting parts were JD talking about having friends who date (so he must have some worldly exposure at least) and the Babes buying a house (that was literally the only piece of new information!). The whole food discussion was absolutely pointless and not even related to this season, and the scandal of Jessa redecorating Jeremy's apartment was from the previous season, too. And of course we all had to be reminded about what a courtship is, because we've clearly got the attention span of a goldfish 

I also noticed that Joy&Austin said they had only been back from their honeymoon, which they spent in SWITZERLAND, for three days, No mention of Israel, where they went after their stay in Switzerland (right?).

[SuhrEnity]

15 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I have no problem whatsoever believing that none of the adult Duggars so far have had sex before marriage (there's actually only one adult Duggar I lean toward 'maybe'. I'll let you guess which one). Do I think one of them will at some point? Sure. There are 19 of them, after all. Like you said, it's a game of probability. But treating the idea of seven young adult fundamentalists managing to abstain from sex until marriage (which occurred at the very latest in their early 20s) as a joke is misguided and underestimates the power of the indoctrination they've undergone since birth. To view these people as typical conservative evangelicals is naive.

Jessa also point blank said in the aftershow that that's why they get married so fast.

[minniestwin]

37 minutes ago, DillyDally said:

I also noticed that Joy&Austin said they had only been back from their honeymoon, which they spent in SWITZERLAND, for three days, No mention of Israel, where they went after their stay in Switzerland (right?).

Okay, not that I am defending Joy and Austin at all but I got to thinking about dates.  If this was taped 26/27 days after they were married and Henry was 4 months old then that would have been around June 20th and based on the One for Israel website there was a trip 6/22 - 7/3.  Austin and Joy posted on Instagram about their trip to Israel on July 1.  It is possible that they had not actually gone on their Israel trip yet when this was taped.   

[Carm_88]

17 minutes ago, SuhrEnity said:

Jessa also point blank said in the aftershow that that's why they get married so fast.

Which just seems like a really bad idea to me. Just because you think someone is attractive and like some of the same things you do *cough Jesus cough* doesn't mean that you are going to get along. 

[nst]

28 minutes ago, SuhrEnity said:

Jessa also point blank said in the aftershow that that's why they get married so fast.

because the "private conversations" they were allowed to have included them discussing sex maybe ? Maybe they act pure but really behind the scenes they are like normal blooded people. Ben clearly had sexual frustration.   

She made it seem so cut and dry when it was probably painful for him and it showed in all his posts.  

[Snarkle Motion]

7 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Which just seems like a really bad idea to me. Just because you think someone is attractive and like some of the same things you do *cough Jesus cough* doesn't mean that you are going to get along. 

But in their world that's all that matters. All a woman is supposed to be is 1) physically attractive, and 2) properly indoctrinated with Jesus. The indoctrination should make her submissive to the husbands will to at least keep the husband happy in he relationship. 

[bananabread]

18 minutes ago, nst said:

because the "private conversations" they were allowed to have included them discussing sex maybe ? Maybe they act pure but really behind the scenes they are like normal blooded people. Ben clearly had sexual frustration.   

She made it seem so cut and dry when it was probably painful for him and it showed in all his posts.  

Agreed that Ben was clearly frustrated. Jessa might very well have been too, but females admitting to strong physical desire is rare enough in the secular world, let alone fundie-land.

I honestly admire the hell out of people who wait for marriage, and wish I had been one of them. But I don't know how they do it. Future-Mr. Bananabread and I waited like.......1 month? before getting seriously physical, and even that was a struggle. When you're really attracted to and loved by someone, it is a STRUGGLE to stay wholesome! If only we'd had chaperones.....

[Buzzard]

Looks like they pulled a 0.3 with around 1.1 million viewers this week.  They were lower on the "top 25" list than they usually are.

i still don't understand how a million people consistently watch these bozos.

[sawasdee]

But, @SapphireSlytherin the point I was trying to make is that I cannot see

1) Wood /brick houses differing too much in price - location is much more important in terms of value.

2) Brits being surprised/envious of brick build, is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Most of our housing stock is brick built in urban areas in SE England, the densest populated, and a large percentage in rural areas. It comes from having large clay beds, which makes brickmaking inexpensive. In fact, recently there has been a shortage as makers could not keep up with demand.

9 hours ago, sawasdee said:

My Brit friends are always impressed with a "brick house" because things are different in the UK,

Sorry, not so. Brick (or stone) built is the norm for many of us. Until I came to live in Thailand, I'd never lived in anything but brick - and that's 9 houses. And only two were  built post 1900. We have a lot of older housing stock - and the Victorians built to last!

The newest house I lived in was a post WW2 build - brick - and the floors weren't wood, but composite. Wood was the shortage, not bricks.

ETA The disadvantage of brick is you have to drill to hang a picture - that's how I know they were brick. But they were strong enough to take ten feet, 6 shelves high, of wall hung bookshelves. One friend lived in a sheathed house - that's when I learnt about spring loaded cavity fixing toggles!

The advantage in a terrace is that brick is not a good insulator, but if heating is constant, it will transmit it. Which means that all the houses were warm...and the bills were not massive. (But not too good to live in the end houses!)

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I missed the Rufus thing and whoever Daphne Oz is....(no I haven't watched)

Joy. Welcome to Middle School, Joy-Anna! That cute boy might want to hold your hand, but don't let him--you'll end up pregnant and missing pieces of your heart. OH? He wants to MARRY you? COOL BEANS get with it, learn to cook, sew baby clothes. Women's stuff.

Jana. Garden probably saves her sanity. Might even help James calm down. 

Jeremy...I wonder how much TLC paid him to join the family?  I don't think Loredo is far enough away from the freakfest for him. And hell yes he believes in birth control. He grew up normal. I'm sure, though, that they are saving the big announcement for the end of the season.

Spurgeon--I must say he is adorable in the pictures I've seen. I hope he doesn't grow up to look like his maternal uncles though.

Tater Tot Casserole--that came from the very first special. Probably, like anyone, they are just sick of it. My family gets sick of way better food than that from time-to-time so we don't make that dish for a while. I imagine that's all it is for them. And, a few have married people who grew up eating much better food than that.

Anna's baby. Do they mention her?

Great recaps. Tell your cats if they marry JD they won't see nip ever again!

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 hours ago, sawasdee said:

2) Brits being surprised/envious of brick build, is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Most of our housing stock is brick built in urban areas in SE England, the densest populated, and a large percentage in rural areas. It comes from having large clay beds, which makes brickmaking inexpensive. In fact, recently there has been a shortage as makers could not keep up with demand.

Sorry, not so. Brick (or stone) built is the norm for many of us. Until I came to live in Thailand, I'd never lived in anything but brick - and that's 9 houses. And only two were  built post 1900. We have a lot of older housing stock - and the Victorians built to last!

 

I specifically said "my Brit friends."

[candygirl200413]

I'm forgetting but do they still have chaperones once they're engaged?

[Jana814]

13 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

I'm forgetting but do they still have chaperones once they're engaged?

I think they do have chaperones after engagement. 

[2manyKidzzz]

Chaperones until the minister pronounces them man and wife.

[Mayluka]

13 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

I'm forgetting but do they still have chaperones once they're engaged?

They're chaperoned right up until they're on that stage saying their vows. At least in person, as there have been comments made that they have unsupervised phone calls and texts at some point.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

It will be interesting to see how Joy, Jill and Jinger do after seeing life in their in-laws homes in the comparative normalcy of a small family where parents have time for each child. I wonder what kind of anger issues may eventually come of that? I also wonder about the pressure on Joe to be the "perfect" husband to atone for Joshey's stupidity.

Another comment. If John David is flying larger planes now, could he be the only one who really told the truth in those early lists of their career goals (all a Gothard-approved answer). Maybe he will become a flying missionary or fly for a Christian aid agency? In which case he is putting off marriage until he's ready for that kind of service? They usually want married missionaries.

Then there are Josiah and the twins Jer and Jed. 'Siah is missing pieces of his heart and apparently abandoned training as a graphic artist along with the pieces. I wonder if he will agree to a new courtship? The pressure on these boys must be horrible though after Josh.

[justoneoftwo]

11 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

It will be interesting to see how Joy, Jill and Jinger do after seeing life in their in-laws homes in the comparative normalcy of a small family where parents have time for each child. I wonder what kind of anger issues may eventually come of that? I also wonder about the pressure on Joe to be the "perfect" husband to atone for Joshey's stupidity.

Another comment. If John David is flying larger planes now, could he be the only one who really told the truth in those early lists of their career goals (all a Gothard-approved answer). Maybe he will become a flying missionary or fly for a Christian aid agency? In which case he is putting off marriage until he's ready for that kind of service? They usually want married missionaries.

Then there are Josiah and the twins Jer and Jed. 'Siah is missing pieces of his heart and apparently abandoned training as a graphic artist along with the pieces. I wonder if he will agree to a new courtship? The pressure on these boys must be horrible though after Josh.

Has anyone read Cheaper by the Dozen?  Its a book by kids in a huge family with some interesting undertones about the parents having enough time (they are not religious, but the book starts in the 20s).  Of the 11 children who lived only one had more than 3 children.  Its interesting to see how a highly educated extremely large family worked.   

[Rachel333]

So I just had dinner with my parents and the conversation turned to the Duggars. My mom especially knew them better than I did and while she didn't like them very much she does't like to gossip. She said today though that Michelle used to talk a lot about how it's unnecessary to teach children to read until they're around 10-11 or so. They don't need it before then and it keeps them from being exposed to things they shouldn't read.

It makes me wonder if things are different now and, if so, if the youngest girls can read yet.

It's sad to think of kids not being able/allowed to read. I would have missed out on so much if I hadn't been able to read as a young child.

[justoneoftwo]

2 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

So I just had dinner with my parents and the conversation turned to the Duggars. My mom especially knew them better than I did and while she didn't like them very much she does't like to gossip. She said today though that Michelle used to talk a lot about how it's unnecessary to teach children to read until they're around 10-11 or so. They don't need it before then and it keeps them from being exposed to things they shouldn't read.

It makes me wonder if things are different now and, if so, if the youngest girls can read yet.

It's sad to think of kids not being able/allowed to read. I would have missed out on so much if I hadn't been able to read as a young child.

WHAT?!?!? unnecessary?  Doesn't the state do any testing?  This is crazy even for them.