Counting On, Season Four Part 5

[IReallyAmHopewell]

6 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

They were involved in Eugenics?  That is super interesting and I didn't know that.  

Yes they were the Duggar opposites in some ways, but also the dad didn't seem to see them as individuals, which is similar.  

Also the Eugenics seems somewhat similar to the quiverfull movement.  The "good" people should have more kids to outnumber the "bad."  

Mostly I'm interested because many people here say you can't possibly raise that many kids in a healthy way, but the Gilbrath's seem to have done a much better job.

Theodore Roosevelt was in Eugenics too. It was not "destroy the feeble" (although they did support forced sterilization in some cases) but mostly it was to get the healthiest, most intelligent people to have the largest families and to bring them up well and well educated.  The Gilbrath's also lived in the era of live-in help. The always had a live-in handyman and a cook and sometimes a maid.  When the father died the handyman stayed on. The 12 kids were really 11 as the second daughter, Mary, died in childhood.  The kids also went to school and traveled. Very different

21 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

She said today though that Michelle used to talk a lot about how it's unnecessary to teach children to read until they're around 10-11 or so. They don't need it before then and it keeps them from being exposed to things they shouldn't read.

 

She's said in books that she uses a certain teaching method for reading and that they start in the beginning of schooling. She's been shown teaching phonics. Now, whether they are given access to anything but the Bob books [a series of beginning readers] is another story. James was shown early on to be incapable of self-regulation or self-control. He was also delightfully devious in getting out of school work. The Switched On Schoolhouse program they used for the later years is uninspiring but does meet the letter of state standards. It is very similar to the self-paced programs used in alternative schools and Juve.

The younger girls have mostly been taught by a non-family member. Its important to remember that these 3 girls (Hannie, Jennie, Jordyn and Josie) have had a completely different life than Josh , JD, Jana, Jessa and Jill. Jackson on down were born with tv people in and out of the house all the time. They have had a very different upbringing.

[PumaLover]

Which just seems like a really bad idea to me. Just because you think someone is attractive and like some of the same things you do *cough Jesus cough* doesn't mean that you are going to get along. 

Agreed!! I have lived it. I guess I was sheltered by my parents but not religious. When I met my ex I fell hard for him because he was the first guy that ever paid attention to me. We married young because we both wanted to move out and live together but because of his beliefs we couldn't do that. I was fine with living together but he wasn't, because Jesus.

We went and applied for our apartment a few weeks before the wedding and his dad made sure to write on the paperwork the date we were getting married because he wanted to be sure no one thought we would be living in sin. *eyeroll*

Anyway we were very unhappy a year into the marriage but stuck it out for 5.5 years, again because Jesus. When I finally had money saved up I split.

I guess that's why I'm so invested in the Duggars. They're doing what I did, and I always wonder how these marriages will turn out. Of course, they all seem to be good submissive wives, unlike me.

[sta_sha]

22 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Mostly I'm interested because many people here say you can't possibly raise that many kids in a healthy way, but the Gilbrath's seem to have done a much better job.

The History Chicks have a really great episode all about Lillian Gelbreth. I didn't know much about her before listening and I thought it was fascinating. 

[MadeItOut]

3 hours ago, PumaLover said:

I guess that's why I'm so invested in the Duggars. They're doing what I did, and I always wonder how these marriages will turn out. Of course, they all seem to be good submissive wives, unlike me.

Glad you said this. I'm the same way.  We did a segment on comparing them with the UK 19 (soon to be 20 kids & counting) during my degree, which was roughly when I was getting out of my fundie marriage. Years later, the therapist said it's a form of survivor guilt.

[moreorlessnu]

There were moments during the show where Jinger was making some odd faces, as though she didn't feel well. I doubt she would grimace in response to something one of her sisters said, so I wonder if she wasn't (ahem) feeling well.

[singsingsing]

39 minutes ago, moreorlessnu said:

There were moments during the show where Jinger was making some odd faces, as though she didn't feel well. I doubt she would grimace in response to something one of her sisters said, so I wonder if she wasn't (ahem) feeling well.

Have you ever wondered why this forum is called 'Free Jinger'? It's because Jinger has been making 'WTF' faces from a young age, and people hoped she might be kind of spunky and throw off the shackles of fundamentalism. Her siblings even did a talking head not that long ago about how expressive she is. She's been grimacing in response to everything for years!

[Letizia]

Pretty sure she was grimacing at her family. She and Jeremy would look really happy and then a family member would say something and they would look horrified. 

Spoiler

 

[Berty K]

9 minutes ago, Letizia said:

Pretty sure she was grimacing at her family. She and Jeremy would look really happy and then a family member would say something and they would look horrified. 

  Hide contents

 

Wow, what the heck did Joy say here? Jeremy looks not amused one iota and Jinge is the picture of #FailedCountenance

(sorry, no way to watch the show myself)

[metheglyn]

48 minutes ago, Berty K said:

Wow, what the heck did Joy say here? Jeremy looks not amused one iota and Jinge is the picture of #FailedCountenance

(sorry, no way to watch the show myself)

That may have been the point at which Joy and Austin acknowledged not actually watching Jinger and Jeremy get married because they were kind of staring at each other? It sort of looks like Joy says "sorry!" in that clip.

[MarblesMom]

On 7/18/2017 at 2:41 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I am telling you all these kids get down.

I realize this was from Tuesday... sorry to rehash... but yes you are right!  BFF in Jr high was a PK and we were Nazarene (no movies, dancing, etc) but in the back of the youth van... holy crap.  

NIKE.

[JordynDarby5]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 3:31 PM, justoneoftwo said:

Has anyone read Cheaper by the Dozen?  Its a book by kids in a huge family with some interesting undertones about the parents having enough time (they are not religious, but the book starts in the 20s).  Of the 11 children who lived only one had more than 3 children.  Its interesting to see how a highly educated extremely large family worked.   

I love that book and the movie (not the Steve Martin movies). 

[griffin]

My sister and I quote "Cheaper by the Dozen" and "Belles on Their Toes" all the time. " Lincoln freed the slaves, all but one!" "I have to go visit Mrs, Murphy". Both of those books are hilarious.

[singsingsing]

So many people fall into this trap of 'I did it when I was a teenager, therefore ALL teens were secretly doing it!" I get it. It's easy to project your own experience onto everyone else, and to assume that if you did something, everyone must have done it. I've fallen into the same trap. But it's not true. I'm not sure why it's so exaggerated when it comes to sex - maybe because there's a lot of ingrained and even subconscious shame tied up in sex for people, especially people from a conservative religious background - "See, I didn't do anything wrong, really! Everyone was doing it, after all! And if they say they weren't, they're LIARS!"

But no. Not everyone was doing it. Your experience is not universal. Just because your church lock-in involved distracted chaperones and sexual experimentation doesn't mean there weren't 50 other church lock-ins that were adequately chaperoned, boring and innocent. Just because you hooked up in the bathroom at the evangelical youth conference doesn't mean that the majority of other evangelical youth did the same thing. Just because you were desperate to escape your particular religious system and its rules doesn't mean there weren't just as many others who liked the rules, and even thrived on them.

I think it's awesome when people get together and realize that they had similar experiences as teens - especially people who were shamed for their sexuality - but it's too easy to slide from "Hey, I'm not the only one who did it!" to, "Ha! Everyone did it!!"

Please also try to remember that the Duggars are not normal evangelical Christians. They are fundamentalists. It doesn't matter how shiny and happy and "normal" they make themselves appear on TV. They are members of a cult. They're not teens raised in conservative households who made ill-advised purity pledges after their friend loaned them 'I Kissed Dating Goodbye'. They're fundamentalists. The difference is very important. This forum exists to discuss the damage done by fundamentalism. If we assume the Duggars are just like regular old conservative Baptists, we're in deep trouble, because it means Gothard and his ilk are succeeding in normalizing their movement.

[nomoxian]

16 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

I've always suspected I have dyscalcula. I can't do math. I've tried, just doesn't happen. I can tell you the history of a lot of things but if you ask me to count up the items I'm buying, I need a calculator. 

What helps me is rounding up. For example, if an item is 2.29 I just think "3" in my head.

It helps that I live in a place where tax is already added to the price on the label. The only thing that sometimes trips me up is the refund/recycling charge on some bottles and cans.

[Carm_88]

32 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Please also try to remember that the Duggars are not normal evangelical Christians. They are fundamentalists. It doesn't matter how shiny and happy and "normal" they make themselves appear on TV. 

I think this is the main issue, when the Duggars first arrived on the TLC, they were a freak show. In their matching frumpers and the boys all dressed like mini middle aged men, no one would have said "Oh they are definitely have sex behind their parents backs." Now that they appear more mainstream, people are starting rumours about it. Well, their beliefs haven't changed. That hardcore system that they subscribed is still there. So despite the change in clothes, I doubt much has changed rules wise. 

[wandering woman]

Jeremy looked bored during most of that TV interview. I found Daphne Oz to be incredibly annoying. Her hairstyle is hideous.

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, wandering woman said:

Jeremy looked bored during most of that TV interview. I found Daphne Oz to be incredibly annoying. Her hairstyle is hideous.

I watched the first 10 minutes or so of it last night, just because I was trying to decompress after a shit day. Agree Jeremy looked bored. And frustrated. And irritated.

Still waiting to see the Jinger gif-reaction thing to see what Joy said to cause that reaction.

[HereticHick]

8 hours ago, griffin said:

My sister and I quote "Cheaper by the Dozen" and "Belles on Their Toes" all the time. " Lincoln freed the slaves, all but one!" "I have to go visit Mrs, Murphy". Both of those books are hilarious.

I love both those books as well. I was fascinated by they time/motion efficiency studies as a kid. As I got older, I started wondering about repetitive motion disorders, though! : )

[Four is Enough]

2 hours ago, wandering woman said:

 I found Daphne Oz to be incredibly annoying. Her hairstyle is hideous.

When I first saw her, I thought she was Sierra! Is it me, or do they look a lot alike?

[wandering woman]

I don't think they look alike, but they have similar personalities. Neither one is the brightest light on the porch.

[TakingBibleClasses]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

So many people fall into this trap of 'I did it when I was a teenager, therefore ALL teens were secretly doing it!" I get it. It's easy to project your own experience onto everyone else, and to assume that if you did something, everyone must have done it.

Yes, thank you. I kind of hate it when people assume that everyone who wants to wait for marriage to have sex is a lying hypocrite. I'm a virgin at 28 for religious reasons. So are several of my single Christian friends. Most of my married friends were virgins on their wedding day.* We've all repeatedly had the experience of going to see doctors (you know, the only people whose business it is besides ours...) who will not believe us when we say we've never been sexually active. Or at least repeat the question several times, with a raise of the eyebrow and an "are you sure?" Speculation by non medical providers is even more inappropriate. I get that most people have sex before they're married. That's fine.  And I get that there are plenty of lying hypocrites out there. But it's not impossible to wait if you want to, and I don't think we should be shamed for that decision or automatically considered liars.

*Even now I find myself wanting to add to these statements something like, "Yes, REALLY!" because I assume people won't believe them. That sucks.

[justoneoftwo]

23 minutes ago, TakingBibleClasses said:

Yes, thank you. I kind of hate it when people assume that everyone who wants to wait for marriage to have sex is a lying hypocrite. I'm a virgin at 28 for religious reasons. So are several of my single Christian friends. Most of my married friends were virgins on their wedding day.* We've all repeatedly had the experience of going to see doctors who will not believe us when we say we've never been sexually active. Or at least repeat the question several times, with a raise of the eyebrow and an "are you sure?" I get that most people have sex before they're married. That's fine.  And I get that there are plenty of lying hypocrites out there. But it's not impossible to wait if you want to, and I don't think we should be shamed for that decision or automatically considered liars.

*Even now I find myself wanting to add to these statements something like, "Yes, REALLY!" because I assume people won't believe them. That sucks.

I hate when doctors do this!  I had one do it at 16.  Then promise not to tell my mother.  Seriously, I understand about confidentiality and I don't lie about health issues.  Not all kids are like yours!

[JMO]

As a healthcare worker I just want to say that the reason for the repeated questions is because of the amount of people who do lie.  If you ask anyone in healthcare, esp gyn/emergency medicine or pediatrics, you'll get a slew of anecdotes about, "I can't be pregnant/have chlamydia/etc, I've never had sex!"  And then they later admit, well, maybe ONE time.,... I was fooled by more than one girl who swore up and down that she couldn't be pregnant and then later ended up in the emergency room due to some complication.  I get that it's frustrating as someone who isn't actually having sex and is being honest, but they have learned from experience that some people aren't as honest. 

[Chickenbutt]

And that is why ER's do pregnancy tests on women/girls of child bearing years. Even if they profess to be a virgin, have had a hyst, are "too young" etc. People lie without realizing the ramifications of that lie. It could be very dangerous to their health, even life threatening.

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, Chickenbutt said:

And that is why ER's do pregnancy tests on women/girls of child bearing years. Even if they profess to be a virgin, have had a hyst, are "too young" etc. People lie without realizing the ramifications of that lie. It could be very dangerous to their health, even life threatening.

I do understand this, but I love my OB because he trusts me (I went in at my 6 week, said there was no way I could be pregnant and they trusted me enough to put in an IUD).