Dillards 24 - Smug Bible Tweets and Maneaters (Jill/Derick/Israel/Baby Dillard)

[Carm_88]

11 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Yep, and Jefferson's descendants through Hemmings can now be buried at Monticello (which is reserved only for people who can prove to be descendants of Jefferson) if they wish. It was a big deal about fifteen years ago and I actually went to school with two sisters who were descendants of SH and TJ and their mother was instrumental in pushing for this. 

I recall reading that Hemmings was so light-skinned (she was actually Mary Jefferson's half-sister right?) that in Europe she was mistaken for Sicilian. I wonder how her children with Jefferson must have looked and if there were comments about it. I think it's just another example of how strange attitudes towards race were/are.

 

Yes she was Mary Jefferson's half sister. That much I do know.  

[Snarkle Motion]

4 hours ago, JesSky03 said:

Jill's comment doesn't really fit the tone of Derick's post. Maybe when she said she misses him she meant she wishes she could have met him? Perhaps Derrick talks about him a lot so she sort of feels like she knew him. I sometimes feel that way about my husband's grandma who died right before we met. She helped raise him so I've heard many many stories about her and sometimes forget that I never did meet her.

We have confederate flags here in WI. You can usually spot the type who would fly one- they drive a big smelly truck, wear camo everywhere, listen to country music, and think they are hicks because they leave the city every so often to go hunting or camping. 

That's how I interpreted it. It really didn't bother me that much and I'm surprised so many people jumped on it. To me it seemed more that she "missed out" and misses that she did not get to know him considering that he was such an influential part of her husbands life. But I can understand how she felt like she knew him due to Derrick sharing as much as possible. But yeah this post didn't bother me and just felt like a slightly different use of language to convey her sentiment. 

I lived in WI for a while too. It's the weirdest mix of extremes - literal socialist meet at the park I played softball at and their cars are covered in hippie decal next to cars with gun racks and confederate flag stickers. 

[catlady]

18 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

For some reason, I see Confederate flags a lot in Ohio. Why, of all places, Ohio?!

Mr CatLady has family in northeastern Ohio, and we've visited them a lot.  their general area presents as very conservative Christian with some racist undertones.  during the 2009 inauguration, one cousin sent out a group text saying that he put on the tv and Planet of the Apes Invades Washington was on.  Really.  Mr. CL texted back that the cousin should change channels becasue we were watching the inauguration on network xyz.  this is not the only racist/sexist thing this guy has put out there.  his FB posts get pretty obnixious, and they're interspersed with Duggar-type religious posts.  he unfriended me after posting a photo of a motorcycle styled like a naked woman and i asked him if this was something he'd be proud to show his wife, his mother, and his pastor.

i won't say all of Ohio is like that.

[SilverBeach]

44 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Yep, and Jefferson's descendants through Hemmings can now be buried at Monticello (which is reserved only for people who can prove to be descendants of Jefferson) if they wish. It was a big deal about fifteen years ago and I actually went to school with two sisters who were descendants of SH and TJ and their mother was instrumental in pushing for this. 

I recall reading that Hemmings was so light-skinned (she was actually Mary Jefferson's half-sister right?) that in Europe she was mistaken for Sicilian. I wonder how her children with Jefferson must have looked and if there were comments about it. I think it's just another example of how strange attitudes towards race were/are.

 

Visitors to Monticello were surprised to be waited on by white servants. Turns out those were TJs children/slaves. I'm light skinned myself, as are my mother and father. Didn't matter to whites, we were all negroes to them, house slave/field slave distinction notwithstanding. Kinda mattered to blacks, but that's a whole different essay.

You said it, attitudes toward race and skin color were strange and still are.

Interesting that you attended school with TJ/SH descendents. They always knew the truth, 1998 was no revelation for them. I wish my white heritage was as illustrious. Actually, I don't know if it is or not. One of the biggest losses suffered by blacks due to the transatlantic slave trade and chattel slavery is the loss of family history. It's a struggle to go back three generations.

[WhoompThereItIs]

5 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Visitors to Monticello were surprised to be waited on by white servants. Turns out those were TJs children/slaves. I'm light skinned myself, as are my mother and father. Didn't matter to whites, we were all negroes to them, house slave/field slave distinction notwithstanding. Kinda mattered to blacks, but that's a whole different essay.

You said it, attitudes toward race and skin color were strange and still are.

Interesting that you attended school with TJ/SM descendents. They always knew the truth, 1998 was no revelation for them. I wish my white heritage was as illustrious. Actually, I don't know if it is or not. One of the biggest losses imposed on blacks by the transatlantic slave trade and chattel slavery is the loss of family history. It's a struggle to go back three generations.

Yes, this mentality of "lighter = better" within the black community (especially those from Louisiana) both fascinates and saddens me. 

[SilverBeach]

13 minutes ago, WhoompThereItIs said:

Yes, this mentality of "lighter = better" within the black community (especially those from Louisiana) both fascinates and saddens me. 

This too is an unfortunate side effect of the corporate low self-esteem resulting from slavery. Mind-fucking was quite thorough, to the point that native born Africans and those with more African features were looked down upon by the blacks already in the US. Coupled with the tendency to put lighter skinned blacks in the house, resentment grew along color lines. FWIW, house slavery was no picnic, lots of rape and abuse took place. Also, the lightest slaves were known to often be the master's offspring, building even more resentment. Yet, the master's wife despised his black children and forced concubines and would treat them terribly, sometimes sadistically.

Louisiana has a strongly French influenced culture, resulting in another layer of complexity regarding race/color.

I wish the Dullards and all the rest of them would learn some real damn American history.

[Carm_88]

5 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I wish the Dullards and all the rest of them would learn some real damn American history.

Agreed and world history! The whole Jessa comparing the holocaust to abortion still irks me to no end. 

[SamiKatz]

As per the Duggars, we need to buy a pamphlet from them to learn about the history of America, which apparently is God's doing.

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Snarkle Motion said:

I lived in WI for a while too. It's the weirdest mix of extremes - literal socialist meet at the park I played softball at and their cars are covered in hippie decal next to cars with gun racks and confederate flag stickers. 

One thing I remember hearing in the primaries is that Wisconsin is the most polarized state. Its liberals tend to lean very far left, and its conservatives tend to lean very far right. I'm from the East Coast and have never been to WI, so I don't have any firsthand experience, but I'm interested in the history of how this happened and how it plays out.

And on the Confederate flag thing: I once went to tour an apartment for rent, with the departing tenant still living in it. He had draped a HUGE Stars and Bars over the living room wall and his bedroom was this creepy collage of Confederate memorabilia. I know he takes that shit with him, but it creeped me out so much it just ruined the apartment for me. 

The poor realtor looked so uncomfortable showing me around. 

[church_of_dog]

I live in the "state of Jefferson".  Very interesting reading these comments about how it is perceived.

Here's my take:

It's a very conservative area but there are plenty of us liberals here too.

The idea of wanting to be a separate state is not based on anything racial -- not saying that people here aren't bigoted, because there are bigots everywhere, and people here are not very into being politically correct, and not being politically correct does certainly have some overlap with racism.  But what I see is mostly ignorance about others rather than hatred or even dislike of others.  I do not see people of other races/cultures directly being treated with disrespect or indirectly being badmouthed.  I'm sure it happens, but it's not the prevailing sentiment.

The flavor of conservative politics around here is mostly oriented toward environmental issues -- the ranchers want to do their thing and not have regulations, not have to consider endangered species, etc.  They see the big government coming out of Sacramento or Salem (capitals of California and Oregon) as not being responsive to their issues, so they want their own state where they don't have any of the rules they object to.  Problem is, the population centers of California and Oregon would never vote to permit those rural areas to leave the state because the valuable resources (water and timber) are located in that area and if Jefferson was its own state then California and Oregon would have to pay for those resources where they currently do not.

Even though I am not a conservative in most regards (and in fact even the typical left wing stance is too centrist for me in most arenas), I am in favor of the State of Jefferson simply because I am opposed to centralized "big government" and favor distributed small and local government.  I recognize that my ideals are probably unrealistic and if the State of Jefferson were really an option I would have to research quite a bit to decide if I REALLY thought it was a good idea.  But since it is so politically infeasible, I feel safe endorsing it for my own reasons, knowing it will never happen.

(But man do I wish CALEXIT was a real thing -- please, Canada, take us in!)

Anyway, I do occasionally see the Confederate flag around here.  I don't think that the locals have any nuanced sense of what it means or meant to Southerners or to Northerners -- I think it has a current cultural meaning, as someone else mentioned above, as a "Rebel" cause -- those who oppose the current government and want to be blatantly opposed to urban and cultural political correctness.  To me it represents an uneducated "yahoo", the stereotype rural roughneck who just wants the cities and big government to go away (even though they still want the benefits of said government -- my favorite phrase I've heard of is people hoisting protest signs that say "Keep Big Government Out Of My Medicare Payments!")

 

ETA @LaPeleona I am very sorry that you had an unpleasant experience here.  People can certainly be rude or intimidating to others and I'm very sorry it happened to you anywhere, and especially here where it gave you such a bad feeling about the area in general.  I hope it was someone just having a bad day and not someone judging or making assumptions about you and your family.

I and most of my friends live here because we love the geographical landscape and the tiny towns and distance from all the aspects of urban life that we don't like -- and also many of us have or had jobs on public lands and this is where those jobs take place.  If one wants to live in a remote area that is close to nature and far from cities, it's pretty much a given that it will be a predominantly conservative area politically.  But it doesn't mean we all share those politics!

[Snarkle Motion]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

One thing I remember hearing in the primaries is that Wisconsin is the most polarized state. Its liberals tend to lean very far left, and its conservatives tend to lean very far right. I'm from the East Coast and have never been to WI, so I don't have any firsthand experience, but I'm interested in the history of how this happened and how it plays out.

WI has a long history of socialism. There were socialist mayors and the socialist party was a legit party for decades. But it also gave rise to senator McCarthy. I think it's the combination of union factory workers that led to socialism popularity. But there is also strong religious traditionalism and the rural parts are very conservative. Madison has always been extremely liberal because of the university.

Milwaukee however is one of the most segregated cities I've ever lived in. It's shocking for this day and age. There's a lot of racism in wi I don't think that anyone would argue that the north doesn't have racism. 

[Elvis Presby]

On January 17, 2017 at 9:11 AM, VelociRapture said:

 

Full disclosure - my ancestor fought at Gettysburg and was part of Sherman's March to the Sea. No idea what he may have actually done during that time - but I am both proud of his overall service and saddened at the things he may have been part of during the march as well. I think it's entirely possible to simultaneously feel both pride and shame or regret. Some of those longing for the past are incapable of feeling both though because the truth of the past is too uncomfortable or painful for them to fully acknowledge how things actually were. And some people are just assholes who only care about themselves, so uncomfortable truths simply don't matter to them.

And now I'm out. Because my baby is singing the song of her people.

My great great grandfather was captured TWICE in The Civil War and still somehow managed to survive and come back home and have babies.  Here I am!  I have gotten copies of his records (via Daughters of the Confederacy) and they are really detailed.  He was released from Rock Island in Illinois about a month after the war was over.  

Did he have slaves?  No. He was just a regular person that was being used as a pawn by the powerful and rich people to advance their end game.  Not that much different from today.  

Oh, and he did have a horse so that immediately put him in the cavalry.  I am happy to report that his horse also survived the war and was properly accounted for by the dirty yankees.  

[lumpentheologie]

4 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I recall reading that Hemmings was so light-skinned (she was actually Mary Jefferson's half-sister right?) that in Europe she was mistaken for Sicilian. I wonder how her children with Jefferson must have looked and if there were comments about it. I think it's just another example of how strange attitudes towards race were/are.

Hemmings was Mary's half-sister, and apparently strongly resembled her. And she was light-skinned -- her mother had also had a white father. Three out of the four children of Hemmings and Jefferson decided to change their identities and live as white people after Jefferson's death. At that time in Virginia you were legally white if you had 1/8th or less black ancestry, but they were still legally slaves. 

I highly recommend the book "The Hemmingses of Monticello" if any of you have an interest in this.  It tells the story of the Hemmingses for four generations -- it won a Pulitzer Prize and I found it fascinating

[KelseyAnn]

23 hours ago, Timetostoplurking said:

I have never seen a confederate flag in Minnesota.   Never!!   But then, we are about as "northern" as you can get.  (I do see a  lot of Norwegian flags. Lol)

 

Maybe I'm in a more conservative area of Minnesota, but I've seen plenty of them. In fact, my high school once baned the country boys from putting them on the black of thier trucks. Not because it  was 'inherently offensive' (it was) but becuase the school was tired of getting complaints from the two black families . 

[SilverBeach]

@church_of_dog, what if a black person feels as you do and wants to live in Jefferson? Unfortunately, "urban" is often used as a euphemism for black and hispanic. 

[Glasgowghirl]

On 18/01/2017 at 11:51 AM, Snarkle Motion said:

Pretty sure there is a book like this. I think it's called The Wind Done Gone. Haven't read it but I remember hearing about it when it came out. 

Are you from Scotland? It's understandable that you wouldn't get into it. The book is very distinctly American and nuanced critique of American  society and the American dream. 

I remember hating British literature in high school. Brideshead Revisted was absolutely terrible to me. But I think now that I have a better grasp of English history and society I might better appreciate some of the themes. I know that I pick up so much more in Jane Austen novels and that so much of the dialogue is women throwing shade at eachother that completely went over my head the first time around. 

Yes I'm Scottish, I don't mind other American literature, I liked Of Mice and Men and the Outsiders when I studied them. I would usually finish reading a book before the teacher finished going over it in class. I couldn't finish The Great Gatsby. I've tried to read since and still can't get into it.

[SadieJane]

So I live in the "region" of Indiana. (Chicago Burbs). We are the only blue voting counties in the state with the exception of Marion,  and even up here, Great Lakes, huge cultural diversity, Our public school system had to send out notes on the second day of school that the students couldnt wear confederate gear, fly the flags on their truck, whistle dixie and so on and so fourth.  I personally feel like, the wars over, my family wasn't off their boat yet, my kids have no reason to sport that flag, but other parents about died throwing a fit.  Its not even like we are a boarder state. Its Indiana, and we barely count as that. With that said, there is a large conservative culture here,  We are by a huge independent baptist church and school, and sometimes people just have to do things for the shock value. The worst I have seen were confederate truck nuts. I think they defeat the purpose of the flag in the first place. SMH

[Jiraffe]

18 hours ago, wikinggirl said:

Nope, she didn't know Derrick in 2008, she was 16 and busy being a sister mom.  I don't think they got to know each other before he was in Nepal and became JB's prayer partner. Isn't that what that proposal song is about? That they met when they were living on different sides of the world but grey up fairly close. 

Right!! Thank you, I remember now. I forget how young she still is. 

[church_of_dog]

58 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@church_of_dog, what if a black person feels as you do and wants to live in Jefferson? Unfortunately, "urban" is often used as a euphemism for black and hispanic. 

Well, I'm reluctant to even guess how it feels to be a black person in a mostly white/mostly conservative area, but here are my thoughts and perceptions.

I'm not completely sure what you're asking.  If a black person wanted to live here, they could live here just the same as anyone else could live here.  I don't think (at least in my small community) they would be treated badly because of their race, if that's what you mean.  As I tried to suggest, people here are measured more by their independence/self reliance, and by their appreciation of the landscape.  If someone came here and proceeded to complain about how things were done locally, that person would not be well-received regardless of their race.  Lots of people like the gorgeous scenery but want all the benefits of a big city too, and complain when those things aren't available.  That doesn't sit well with folks here.  If someone came here and then complained because there were no other black folks, or no, say, hair shop specializing in black hair, that would be annoying, because one of the attributes of a small town is that there simply AREN'T all the same choices and options that one finds in a city.  But it's not the person's race that would be at issue.

Now I'm getting a bit entangled in my own thoughts here, because I'm speaking about my little valley which has maybe 1000 people total.  But the State of Jefferson territory is large and includes some small cities -- and in those cities you would find a considerably wider variety of races, religions, community subcultures, etc.  You might also find more racism, ironically, because there are just more troublemakers, and issues like gangs, etc. who tend to divide along racial lines (at least that's my impression) and then proceed to hate each other.

But my point is that the values and beliefs and rallying cries that are part and parcel of the idea of becoming a separate state, I just don't think those are racially based.  As I said, I think it's mostly about environmental laws that are seen as oppressive, and about the things that are inherently different in rural areas -- literally rural, as in National Forest lands, range lands, ranch lands, etc.  For me personally it's entirely about focusing on the local as opposed to the big government of the state and federal levels.

I'm not at all sure I've answered your question, sorry.  Please ask again if I missed it.

[SilverBeach]

@church_of_dog, what I meant is what if a black person shared your feelings/values and wanted to live in Jefferson for the same reasons that you do? Would they be accepted?

Thank you for your answer, your thoughts are appreciated.

[Cleopatra7]

I have some ideas about why one finds Confederate flags outside the South. First, American movement conservatism has always had a soft spot for the Confederacy, because it was believed to model Jeffersonian democratic values, untarnished by the problems of the industrial North. This tendency was exemplified in the Southern Agrarian movement that was based out of Vanderbilt University:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Agrarians

Plus, movement conservatism has never been comfortable with the idea of racial equality. This is painfully obvious when you read the backhanded compliments about MLK on sites like the National Review, American Conservative, and First Things. It's like the writers know they're supposed to think MLK was a hero, but they really just think American society as a whole would have been better if black people had just been content to sit in the back of the bus. When the Civil Rights Movement was actually going on, it was viewed as a front for communism. Because integrated schools are just a slippery slope to the gulags. Consequently, no one in the Cold War era conservative movement was in favor of civil rights for blacks; not Barry Goldwater, not Ronald Reagan, not Jerry Falwell, and not William F. Buckley. When the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church was bombed back in 1963, William F. Buckley, the father of modern conservatism and New England patrician, complained that the real victims were not the four girls who were killed or the scores of people who were injured, but the whites of Birmingham:

Quote

Let us gently say the fiend who set off the bomb does not have the sympathy of the white population in the South; in fact, he set back the cause of the white people there so dramatically as to raise the question whether in fact the explosion was the act of a provocateur — of a Communist, or of a crazed Negro.

And let it be said that the convulsions that go on, and are bound to continue, have resulted from revolutionary assaults on the status quo, and a contempt for the law, which are traceable to the Supreme Court’s manifest contempt for the settled traditions of Constitutional practice. Certainly it now appears that Birmingham’s Negroes will never be content so long as the white population is free to be free.

While Buckley is often praised for purging the conservative movement of anti-Semitism, few people seem to mention the fact that he was an enthusiastic segregationist, and seemingly indifferent to terrorism against black people.

During SCLC's abortive attempt to end slums in Chicago in 1965, civil rights protestors were met with extreme violence from "white ethnics" (whose ancestors presumably arrived after the Civil War), which included the waving of the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag. The violence was so bad, that MLK said it was worst than anything he had experienced in the South, including Mississippi. I think by this point, the Confederate flag had become a de facto symbol of white supremacy that could be used by bigots regardless of their location. This is why is why I think the "heritage not hate" argument about the Confederate flag is simply being willfully ignorant.

[SilverBeach]

@Cleopatra7, right on. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hate no matter where it is found.

And fuck William Buckley, heartless bastard.

[Bad Wolf]

Not too long ago, Bill O'Reily said it was OK that slaves built the white house because they were treated well, (or something like that). He retracted it later, but that was obviously his first thought.

[church_of_dog]

20 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@church_of_dog, what I meant is what if a black person shared your feelings/values and wanted to live in Jefferson for the same reasons that you do? Would they be accepted?

Thank you for your answer, your thoughts are appreciated.

Ah sorry, I see where I went off on a tangent before.

Yes, I think such a person would be accepted.  In fact I know of just such a person -- although ironically he's such a hermit that he doesn't interact in town much at all and many folks don't even know him.  But this is a fellow who had a life elsewhere, things fell apart for whatever reasons, and he owned this piece of land out in the middle of nowhere (literally -- he's not in or near a town at all -- he might have a few neighbors within 20 miles or so, but he has to drive about 40 miles before he even reaches my little valley -- but we are his nearest town for groceries etc so I will consider him a local resident).  So a few years ago he moved out to his land as somewhat of a last resort for himself, and proceeded to start figuring out how to survive -- started building a house, had some setbacks along the way, ended up fixing up a trailer instead.  His location is about as extreme as I could imagine.  Once he got the basics of shelter, water (he used to haul water from town but maybe he has a well now?), etc in place, he ended up getting a master's degree online and has just recently gotten a job in the county seat town (which, ironically, will probably mean he'll leave his homestead and go live in town).  Anyway, when people talk about this guy, it is mostly with high admiration for him sticking it out for years, surviving in extreme climate and extreme social/geographic isolation, etc.  The fact that he's black isn't even mentioned, unless one is trying to describe him to others (because with so few black people here, it IS an easy physical descriptor, much like someone who is extra-tall or who has bright red hair, etc).

So, you're asking, what if this black person held the same values as I do -- which are primarily wanting to live in a tiny town, very environmentally conscious, etc.  My environmental views would not go over well with the rancher- and anti-government types who are the Jefferson proponents, and neither would the same views coming from a black person.  But I can't see any difference in the reaction.  I'm not very vocal about my views in public, in particular when they challenge or disagree with "the way things are done around here", so if our theoretical black person also wasn't very vocal, again, I think the same reactions would apply to both of us.  I try very hard to find aspects of the community and its traditional values that I *can* support, and actively do so, rather than focusing on the things I don't endorse.  Again, a black person doing the same should expect the same kind of reaction.

Now, let's say that I decided I WOULD be vocal about my views, and started hanging protest signs in my yard or writing letters to the editor denouncing harmful ranching practices.  I would not be liked, and there would be a low-but-real risk of some kind of retaliation from the right.  If a black person did that -- hmm, we might now be reaching the point where the reaction from others might become more stereotype-based, and whether they would react the same to a stereotypical white-liberal-hippie-chick-environmentalist as they would to a black-liberal-hippie-environmentalist?  I couldn't really say.  If the black person was male, there are certainly stereotypes that include more aggression and violence that might come into play at some point.  So, what changed that there's now that aura of racial stereotyping?  Maybe the idea that once someone is angered, they are more likely to lean on racial issues to feed their anger?  (I have no idea, am just thinking stream-of-consciousness here)

I also realize that there is definitely racism here, aimed primarily at the Native American and the Hispanic communities, both of which are significant portions of our population.  So maybe it's irrelevant that people don't seem focused on black vs white, because racism is racism.  They seem to treat individual people ok though, even while they are saying demeaning things about the race as a whole.  I don't know what to make of that.

Again, sorry for the lack of conciseness.  I really don't know how to talk about this stuff, nor how to separate my abstract "sense" of what others would do, from any actual evidence.

[TakingBibleClasses]

23 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

@Cleopatra7, right on. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hate no matter where it is found.

I've spent several years in South Africa, and one of my (white) South African Facebook friends regularly posts confederate flag memes ("You'll take this flag over my dead body!" etc.). He's never even been to the U.S.! But yep, ignorance and racism is kind of his thing. 

(And, of course, South Africa doesn't have the best track record itself when it comes to race...)