Anna and the M-kids, Part 8

[PainfullyAware]

It is just sad that they are using the birth of a child as part of Josh's redemption story. I really feel for Anna. Although we can't assume she feels about this the way we do - in her worldview, this might really feel like a reward for all her patience and faith in the last two years. Personally, I also think their children are the one thing they share and in the past at least looked like a positive bond between them, so maybe she feels like seeing Josh as a new Dad again is this great thing. Poor Anna.

it's tricky to pull apart the impact of shaming and control in religious cults on Josh's sexual development and his own character failings. I would say that after everything I read on here and looked into I thought it was agreed that teenage abuse of his sisters was very unlikely to translate into him being a predator today, as someone above suggested. It came out in affairs etc. 

My guess is that for Josh it's all about power and transgression. Then the guilt kicks in and he runs confessing his sins, afraid to burn in hell ( don't dismiss this fear as it truly creates trauma in children raised in cults). Then he is punished, which is probably a cathartic experience for him and he feels 'right' again. I'm not at all surprised that he turned himself in during some of his teenage abuse episodes, crying and begging for forgiveness, like the police report records.

Now he's been emasculated in his community, and lost all his power and prestige. My guess is he's still deep in the phase of punishment. Will he decide to transgress again when he's been forgiven, time has passed and he is on firmer financial footing again....Quite likely. But will he repeat a cycle he's been in since childhood? Or will he cope by deepening his indoctrination and commitment to the cult? 

in the meantime, Anna might be happy with her new, chastened Josh. I just sincerely hope he realizes that his self-destructive cycle has serious collateral damage and finds a healthier way to integrate as a person. 

[breakfree]

8 hours ago, Hisey said:

No, I don't think they'll have that many. Look how long it took to conceive #5. When things are that ugly and there is so much unspoken anger and resentment in a marriage, the sex goes downhill. I'm not saying she's turning him down (she wouldn't), I'm just saying there is too much sadness there. Even Josh would probably rather spend time with his right hand than try to fool around with a woman who is smothering her resentment and forcing a smile.

I have to disagree about Anna. Now she is an overwhelmed, unhappy young mother, who is struggling to figure out why it was her fault. She needs to shed all that stuff before she'll have the self esteem to leave. That takes time.

This kid is unfortunately right on schedule- it didn't take them any longer to conceive M5 than the other  M's (other than M1). Anna's been popping them out about every 2 years for the entire marriage. Even granted that her fertility will likely start to decrease further at some point it's not at all outside the realm of possibility that she could have 10-12 kids by the time she's 43. If she continues to pop them out every two years until around 35 when her fertility will start to take a dive she'll already have 8 by then. Assuming one every 3 years after that until around 42, that would leave her with 11.

ETA fast thread, I see someone already beat me to it...

[BabyBottlePop]

I'll bet you that Michelle will judge the heck out of her children's families once they start to slow down and have less and less as they get older. I could see Michelle viewing Anna's family as proof Anna was not as holy as her, since I don't see Anna having more than half of Michelle's total.

[VeganCupcake]

12 hours ago, anjulibai said:

I just hope they don't choose a middle name so that the first name middle name combo is silly, like they did with poor Marcus. 

I feel dumb for asking but what's wrong with the name Marcus Anthony? 

As far as Anna leaving, we have to remember that she has absolutely no experience dating or talking to guys except a courtship that was arranged by her parents. The thought of getting out into the dating world and looking for a new partner is probably very daunting and impossible to her. 

[AlwaysExcited]

11 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

I feel dumb for asking but what's wrong with the name Marcus Anthony? 

Historical figure, who is not exactly fundie-approved. Pretty ironic/funny that they named a kid like that. 

[singsingsing]

13 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

I feel dumb for asking but what's wrong with the name Marcus Anthony? 

Marcus Antonius / Mark Antony. Rome, Julius Caesar, Octavian, Antony and Cleopatra.

[JMO]

Not surprised about M5 sadly. And while he's arriving right on schedule we also need to remember that josh went to Jesus jail soon after Meredith's birth and only returned a year ago. We are speculating that Anna is 4-6 months pregnant.  So, it didn't actually take that long after he returned.  I don't know if she would ever leave.  I do think he'll fck up a few more times. I'm wondering how they will address the baby in the show. I'm guessing that they either just show a pic of the baby after he's born or show the older girls going to visit him. 

[ariel9]

I am not surprised at all.The men in this cult do what they want and the women have to deal with it. Anna has no job or career skills. She also has a bunch of kids. It would be very hard for her to breakaway with no job and a bunch of kids.The entire premise of their show is to be special snowflakes by going against the grain. Forgiving a guy who molests his sisters and embarrasses you fits the special snowflake/ I'm a victim narrative because you heathens think my headship is a jerk. Anna is also a human with urges. If she wants sex there is only one person to get it from with no protection. Even if Anna doesn't want to have sex she is encouraged to submit and be joyfully available. With this recipe plus her fertility the announcement is pretty timely. So speaking of timely, will this be the year of the magazine cover with all the married females preggo?

[actuallyjessica]

My thoughts on the M-spacing was that the more Josh began pulling away from his wife, and sought after sex elsewhere, the spacing of the kiddies got longer. She may not begin to ovulate postpartum as soon as others do, but I don't think we can say the spacing of the latter M-kids is due to Anna's natural fertility.

And, I don't think we can comment on whether Anna and Josh are happy in their marriage. We have not seen or heard anything from them to even speculate based on our observations. So the stuff that's said here is coming out of left field. If Anna is still with Josh because she believes that's where God wants her, do you think she's going to sit around and mope and think about how Josh's decisions have affected their family? No one here can say, but I'm going to guess she's not. This is based on the little snippets we do see.

[singsingsing]

@actuallyjessica two things make me think you may be right. First, Anna got pregnant with Mackynzie about 3 or 4 months after her wedding. After Mackynzie was born she got pregnant again fairly quickly and was due in February but miscarried. She got pregnant again quickly after than and had Michael in June. Of course, with two kids they may have just been too tired and busy to be intimate as much, or her fertility could have changed.

But there was another incident that still strikes me to this day... I think it was after Marcus. Anna really, really wanted another baby and made that very clear. In one of the talking heads she was expressing how much she wanted another baby, turned to Josh and said something like, "Hint hint!" That really made me sit up and pay attention. Hint hint? They don't use birth control. The only thing she could be hinting at him about was sex. She said it in a joking way, but I always thought it was pretty telling.

Or this could really just be her 'natural' spacing. Hard to say.

[BabyBottlePop]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

@actuallyjessicaBut there was another incident that still strikes me to this day... I think it was after Marcus. Anna really, really wanted another baby and made that very clear. In one of the talking heads she was expressing how much she wanted another baby, turned to Josh and said something like, "Hint hint!" That really made me sit up and pay attention. Hint hint? They don't use birth control. The only thing she could be hinting at him about was sex. She said it in a joking way, but I always thought it was pretty telling.

Or this could really just be her 'natural' spacing. Hard to say.

This is really interesting, I've never heard it before. Do the men in this cult have a right to turn down sex, or are the women  not supposed to initiate it? Double standards all around. 

[Seren Ann]

I am completely unsurprised, I was thinking it was about time... I feel so sad for Anna, this really cements the fact that she is all in. What a miserable life. I hope Josh is treating her with respect and helping her is all I can say, but knowing the type of person he is, probably not...

[shiverful]

38 minutes ago, JMO said:

Not surprised about M5 sadly. And while he's arriving right on schedule we also need to remember that josh went to Jesus jail soon after Meredith's birth and only returned a year ago. We are speculating that Anna is 4-6 months pregnant.  So, it didn't actually take that long after he returned.  I don't know if she would ever leave.  I do think he'll fck up a few more times. I'm wondering how they will address the baby in the show. I'm guessing that they either just show a pic of the baby after he's born or show the older girls going to visit him. 

It will be interesting to see. Josh and Anna probably needs cash in raising these five children and now that Jim Bob have so many adult and married children to support (I mean, he does house both Jessa and Ben and Jill and Derick - when they are in the US). My guess is that the Duggar's will do as much as possible to try to give the pregnancy and birth some screen-time. Maybe they'll have Jana deliver the baby (assuming that Anna and Jill is due at the same time) while a huge fake glare covers Josh. Either that or they will sell the baby's first pictures to some second rate magazine. 

[VeganCupcake]

10 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

If she goes to a real doctor they will test her for STDs. If she goes with a CPM, then probably not.

She was shown visiting Dr. Sarver's office during her first pregnancy when they went on a "double date" with JB & M to the baby appointments. I hope she has continued seeing real doctors. I can't believe Josh banged a porn star with no condom. I'm betting he never got tested either. 

@singsingsing She probably said "hint hint" because Josh is not as down with endless stream of births. I can't find it now, but there's a clip of Anna telling him she's pregnant with either M3 or M4, and he seems bewildered. I believe he's sitting in bed and Anna and the kids go in and tell him. He doesn't even pretend to be excited. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Historical figure, who is not exactly fundie-approved. Pretty ironic/funny that they named a kid like that. 

Just like Henry Wilberforce. 

[ShipFullOfHeads]

I'm not saying she WILL leave. I'm saying if she does, it won't be now. It will be when she is much older. Now she's so young,  she still probably wants to please her parents. But in 15 years, they may be dead.

You don't have physically leave to end a marriage. My parents lived together in a household for many many years with their relationship on and off. Even after they made up their mind to finally separate they chose - for some reason I will never understand - to live under the same roof despite resenting each other. After the announcement of baby no 5 I don't think it will happen soon but I can see it coming Josh removing himself emotionally at some point. Of course this is all speculation as none of us knows what is actually going between those two.

[JermajestyDuggar]

34 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

This is really interesting, I've never heard it before. Do the men in this cult have a right to turn down sex, or are the women  not supposed to initiate it? Double standards all around. 

I have guessed for awhile that since it's all up to the man, Josh probably isn't initiating a lot of sex because he really doesn't seem to want a bunch of kids. But Josh is the oldest and he has always had to set the example for his younger sibling. There's a lot of pressure on the oldest sons in this cult. I wouldn't be surprised at all if his refusing to have sex with Anna because of possible pregnancy contributed to the porn and the affairs. 

[singsingsing]

19 minutes ago, VeganCupcake said:

I can't believe Josh banged a porn star with no condom. I'm betting he never got tested either. 

That probably never happened. The lawsuit was thrown out and Danica Dillon admitted that she lied.

Regardless, I hope Anna's been tested for STDs, too. Even if Josh told her he never physically cheated on her (I have no idea if that's the case), she should still be tested. I seem to remember that when they were living in D.C. and she was pregnant with Meredith she was seeing a really good midwife. Now that she's back in Arkansas among the Duggars, she's probably seeing one of their """midwives""". 

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

@actuallyjessica two things make me think you may be right. First, Anna got pregnant with Mackynzie about 3 or 4 months after her wedding. After Mackynzie was born she got pregnant again fairly quickly and was due in February but miscarried. She got pregnant again quickly after than and had Michael in June. Of course, with two kids they may have just been too tired and busy to be intimate as much, or her fertility could have changed.

But there was another incident that still strikes me to this day... I think it was after Marcus. Anna really, really wanted another baby and made that very clear. In one of the talking heads she was expressing how much she wanted another baby, turned to Josh and said something like, "Hint hint!" That really made me sit up and pay attention. Hint hint? They don't use birth control. The only thing she could be hinting at him about was sex. She said it in a joking way, but I always thought it was pretty telling.

Or this could really just be her 'natural' spacing. Hard to say.

If she had to "hint, hint!", my guess is he was already getting "nooky, nooky!" somewhere else, way back then.

[VeganCupcake]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That probably never happened. The lawsuit was thrown out and Danica Dillon admitted that she lied.

Oh so she never met up with him at all? I missed that. I wonder where she got the idea to give all those interviews about him. What a psycho! 

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

It is just sad that they are using the birth of a child as part of Josh's redemption story. I really feel for Anna. Although we can't assume she feels about this the way we do - in her worldview, this might really feel like a reward for all her patience and faith in the last two years. Personally, I also think their children are the one thing they share and in the past at least looked like a positive bond between them, so maybe she feels like seeing Josh as a new Dad again is this great thing. Poor Anna.

it's tricky to pull apart the impact of shaming and control in religious cults on Josh's sexual development and his own character failings. I would say that after everything I read on here and looked into I thought it was agreed that teenage abuse of his sisters was very unlikely to translate into him being a predator today, as someone above suggested. It came out in affairs etc. 

My guess is that for Josh it's all about power and transgression. Then the guilt kicks in and he runs confessing his sins, afraid to burn in hell ( don't dismiss this fear as it truly creates trauma in children raised in cults). Then he is punished, which is probably a cathartic experience for him and he feels 'right' again. I'm not at all surprised that he turned himself in during some of his teenage abuse episodes, crying and begging for forgiveness, like the police report records.

Now he's been emasculated in his community, and lost all his power and prestige. My guess is he's still deep in the phase of punishment. Will he decide to transgress again when he's been forgiven, time has passed and he is on firmer financial footing again....Quite likely. But will he repeat a cycle he's been in since childhood? Or will he cope by deepening his indoctrination and commitment to the cult? 

in the meantime, Anna might be happy with her new, chastened Josh. I just sincerely hope he realizes that his self-destructive cycle has serious collateral damage and finds a healthier way to integrate as a person. 

This baby is a classic Band-Aid Baby. Anna is chasing the dragon, so to speak, of that elation she feels when a new baby is born and Josh pretends to be happy and poses for photos with her and their new little wonder. Never mind that for your entire pregnancy he was using the family's money to cheat on you. Never mind that he snoozes through your labor and only cares for the children when they amuse him. Never mind that he's never going to stop doing shitty things and being a shitty person, because he knows that if he cries enough crocodile tears and prays enough, all will be forgiven. He's scum and has no incentive to be anything but scum.

[Carm_88]

Sadly for Anna, this baby won't change anything nor will any other babies. Josh is who he is, he's a douchebag. Will the upcoming baby get him more freedom? I'm not sure. If it does, he will cheat again. I have no doubt in my mind that Josh is looking to hook up. Poor Anna, poor kids. 

[Jana814]

The thing is Josh dose not care about anyone else but himself. If he cared about his wife even a little bit he never would have done what he did. 

[Carm_88]

http://people.com/tv/josh-anna-duggar-timeline-marriage-scandal-rebuilding-life-together/

People makes me want to vomit! That article is disgusting on so many levels. 

[onekidanddone]

13 hours ago, Jana814 said:

This whole thing is just plain sad. I don't think this child will save their marriage.  If anything Josh might stray again. Didn't he join Ashley Madison when Anna was pregnant?  

I figure he is still straying.  Short of locking him in the prayer closet and letting Anna in for conjugal visits, I don't think he can change who he is. Just wonderful.  No real job, no home of their own and now five little snowflakes. 

15 hours ago, frugalitymom said:

Other name options 

Moses

Messaiah 

Madison

Mycroft

Merlin 

 Mesopotamia

28 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

http://people.com/tv/josh-anna-duggar-timeline-marriage-scandal-rebuilding-life-together/

People makes me want to vomit! That article is disgusting on so many levels. 

I just saw the video.  That chipper little voice over. Ugh.  Sounds so ATI. 

17 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Holy fuck! M5 is coming soon!  

Ohh they should name the baby MI5 after the British CIA.