Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, amster said:

Yes, I did.

I am very aware that this is not a Bates Fan Site, nor did I say I was a Bates fan (and certainly not a leghumper). I also can read fine thanks, so you don't need to bold and italicise it for me.

However, I don't get my knickers in a knot over the fact that some people like them. Nor do I feel the need to remind everybody about their heinous beliefs every time someone makes a positive comment about one of them. It's getting old.

The fact of the matter is, some people are going to like them. Rather than coming here specifically to whinge, as opposed to than contributing to the conversation, I suggested that NellieBellie stay out of it. So sue me. I'm so sick of the handslapping around here when it comes to the Bates. I've been here since Yuku days. I may not post a lot, but I sure as hell lurk, so I know how this place works, and I've seen how the place has fallen apart.

People can think what they want, and post what they want within the terms of ToU.  But to expect people to be able to fan worship the Bateses here and expect the people who pushback to just stay out of the forum...if you can't see how ridiculous that is I don't know what to tell you.

fan girlimg may continue to happen here, but it won't be left to happen in peace.  And its not about someone saying something nice about a fundy.  

[nelliebelle1197]

5 minutes ago, amster said:

Yes, I did.

I am very aware that this is not a Bates Fan Site, nor did I say I was a Bates fan (and certainly not a leghumper). I also can read fine thanks, so you don't need to bold and italicise it for me.

However, I don't get my knickers in a knot over the fact that some people like them. Nor do I feel the need to remind everybody about their heinous beliefs every time someone makes a positive comment about one of them. It's getting old.

The fact of the matter is, some people are going to like them. Rather than coming here specifically to whinge, as opposed to than contributing to the conversation, I suggested that NellieBellie stay out of it. So sue me. I'm so sick of the handslapping around here when it comes to the Bates. I've been here since Yuku days. I may not post a lot, but I sure as hell lurk, so I know how this place works, and I've seen how the place has fallen apart.

Yeah, I lurked in the "great old days" too, before @Curious took over and did awful things like shutting down personal attacks on people for thinking differently. I was too damn scared of the vipers to register. So, since you have been around so long, how would have experiencedd or emmiedahl or Austin have reacted to this tone in here? Let's bring back Gizmodo and see how  long this lasts. I have a funny feeling that gang would have shut this stuff down several threads ago and in a much less pleasant way  than how it is being handled now.

There is a fucking double standard when it comes to the Bates and a lot of people are bloody sick of it. The Duggars have actually  managed to  move somewhat away from Gothard, marrying off daughters to people outside the cult, but are they getting any credit? Nope. Alyssa wears a sleeveless dress and whoooopeee! she is a rebellious star. The Duggar girls cannot even manage to wear the right bra.

As @Palimpsest rightly pointed out, Cynthia Jeub and others have actually managed to escape real emotional and physical abuse. I think the thread on Cynthia's blog has been around for over a year and is not even long enough for part two.

So forgive us if we are troubled by the fact that Bates threads are turning into the Bates Forever Facebook page comment section.

[Curious]

40 minutes ago, amster said:

The fact of the matter is, some people are going to like them. Rather than coming here specifically to whinge, as opposed to than contributing to the conversation, I suggested that NellieBellie stay out of it. So sue me. I'm so sick of the handslapping around here when it comes to the Bates. I've been here since Yuku days. I may not post a lot, but I sure as hell lurk, so I know how this place works, and I've seen how the place has fallen apart.

LOL  This type of commenting (not *this* type, but all the Bates love) would not have flown even a couple years ago, let alone on Yuku.

Also, super cool you've been here since Yuku, but can't be bothered to actually participate and help shape the community.    Your cred is somewhat lacking.

1 hour ago, amster said:

Ok, but if you don't agree with it, why not stay out of the Bates subforum?

Because as we have discovered with the Duggar forum, the people that were being shouted down and left have resulted in that forum turning into a cesspool that we now have to monitor closely because people that are supposed to be adults are not.

This is not a Bates fan site.   This is a site devoted to shining light on the problems with the beliefs these people whole.  There is nothing wrong with positive comments about members of the family, but suggesting they do not hold harmful beliefs should and will be called out.  That's pretty much the purpose of FJ.

If you don't like that, I'm certain there are fan sites out there that allow any type of comment to go unchallenged.  FJ isn't one of them.

[Fascinated]

45 minutes ago, amster said:

Yes, I did.

I am very aware that this is not a Bates Fan Site, nor did I say I was a Bates fan (and certainly not a leghumper). I also can read fine thanks, so you don't need to bold and italicise it for me.

However, I don't get my knickers in a knot over the fact that some people like them. Nor do I feel the need to remind everybody about their heinous beliefs every time someone makes a positive comment about one of them. It's getting old.

The fact of the matter is, some people are going to like them. Rather than coming here specifically to whinge, as opposed to than contributing to the conversation, I suggested that NellieBellie stay out of it. So sue me. I'm so sick of the handslapping around here when it comes to the Bates. I've been here since Yuku days. I may not post a lot, but I sure as hell lurk, so I know how this place works, and I've seen how the place has fallen apart.

You should also have seen, then, how the Duggar forum has deteriorated over the past year to the point that our 'older' members were so appalled that they did indeed stay out of it.  And it all went downhill from there.  These members have repeatedly been asked to post in the Duggar threads in order to get them back on track.  The same must happen in this new Bates forum.  

[SilverBeach]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Perhaps you missed the fact that I was being heavily sarcastic?  Really, the swooning over Alyssa and the Bates family is getting on my nerves (not meaning you specifically, but general swooning on this thread).

I'd be really happy if any one of the second generation makes an escape.  Wearing pants, saying you only want 6 children (or hoping that "God only gives" you 6) and having an instagram account is not enough evidence to think that Alyssa is moving away from these beliefs, however.  Alyssa is still stumping for her father-in-law's re-election on a poisonous platform and her husband is still sucking from the teat of the Webster family business, so I don't think they are making any huge steps away from the cult as yet.

I actually know quite a lot about this subject and how difficult it is to grow away from the beliefs instilled in childhood.  I think it is a real  pity that people are still so focused on Alyssa wearing pants and the Bates family as being "better" than the Duggars, when they could be praising Cynthia Jeub or Alecia Faith Pennington - and many others who are making real attempts to escape the cult and are working hard to combat their indoctrination. 

It would be nice to see Alyssa/any Bates go to college - a real accredited college - at some point.

+1000. I am applauding. As long as any of them support Taliban Dan it matters not that they wear pants or bikinis, they support some despicable stuff.

Swooning, that's a good word. I don't get it either. Not here, this is not a fan site. Seems like there would be more comfortable places for swooning, but OK. We are the anti-swooners, LOL.

23 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

You should also have seen, then, how the Duggar forum has deteriorated over the past year to the point that our 'older' members were so appalled that they did indeed stay out of it.  And it all went downhill from there.  These members have repeatedly been asked to post in the Duggar threads in order to get them back on track.  The same must happen in this new Bates forum.  

+1000 AGAIN

[SilverBeach]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the bolded - do you not see the absolute hubris in assuming you can look at her actions and for the public statements and pictures and know anything about what's in her head?  Much less clearly ...

I was married for 10 years.  When I filed for divorce many people who knew us were shocked.  They knew how happy we were because we didn't fight, such a beautiful family...cute couple (such a handsome husband...isn't she lucky!) and absolutely adorable kids.  And I was such a good mommy and he worked so hard to take care of us...we clearly had everything.

The people who really knew us?  Their reaction was far more along the lines of 'what took you so long?'

I'm not saying she is or isn't happy...I'm saying there is no possible way to know anything about what they are thinking from the parts of their lives they choose to present to you, their audience.  

You seem to be her biggest fan, but I personally would resent the hell out of strangers assuming they knew anything about how I felt about my family or faith based on anything other than what I actually say.

 

Fan fiction is flourishing in this thread.

[Curious]

2 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Fan fiction is flourishing in this thread.

Is this a literal comment or an observation on the amount of seemingly magical thinking some people are expressing?

One needs to be reported.  The other just needs to be called out.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Curious said:

Is this a literal comment or an observation on the amount of seemingly magical thinking some people are expressing?

One needs to be reported.  The other just needs to be called out.

I think it's the second, IMO, because the incredible leaps into allegedly knowing what they are thinking.  And IMO the mental gymnastics to ignore wh Gil and Kelly really are to buy what they're selling (the entire show - that's fan fiction.)

but she said it, I thought it, about how it is almost like FF in the sense of thinking one can know these people based on media...but not in the sense of actually crafting it as fiction.

[SilverBeach]

Just now, Curious said:

Is this a literal comment or an observation on the amount of seemingly magical thinking some people are expressing?

One needs to be reported.  The other just needs to be called out.

I see it as literal. To defend the Bateses, some have created elaborate scenarios unequivocally stating how they are thinking, feeling, reacting, or planning, with no basis for knowing any of it. Thats fan fiction to me.

I am appaled at a poster saying that she is tired of the Bates reprehensible beliefs being highlighted when someone who likes them makes a post. What! Thats what we are here for! Such nerve.

[Withagrainofsalt]

9 hours ago, ophelia said:

You are right. Now that you mentioned that, I remembered Kelly saying that. But how much is this degree of the Clown College really worth? But of course, it is better than nothing.

I don't really care about the degree, I think it's great they are actually going to a school outside of their home. That alone is a huge difference than how they were raised. 

[SilverBeach]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think it's the second, IMO, because the incredible leaps into allegedly knowing what they are thinking.  And IMO the mental gymnastics to ignore wh Gil and Kelly really are to buy what they're selling (the entire show - that's fan fiction.)

but she said it, I thought it, about how it is almost like FF in the sense of thinking one can know these people based on media...but not in the sense of actually crafting it as fiction.

The quoted parts of that LBE post was straight up fan fiction. 

[Ali]

I found Free Jinger because of the Duggars. Their beliefs seemed a little extreme to me and it was obvious something was not quite right about this family, so I looked them up on the internet and found this website. I learned about the dangers of ATI, fundamentalism, etc. from this website. I would have most likely not learned about it had it not been for the Duggars.

I watched some of the episodes of the BUB to try to understand their appeal. I really don't get it. They are less awkward than the Duggars and they have better social skills. Kelly appears to be a better mother than Michelle, but is that really a compliment?

The danger with the Bateses is that it is not nearly as obvious on their show that something is "off" with their beliefs. If we do not discuss the dangers of fundamentalism in the Bateses forum and only discuss the positive things about the family, people who google them and discover this website may not learn about fundamentalism. They would just see a bunch of fans talking about the Bateses. Since the primary purpose of this site is to discuss the dangers of fundamentalism, I think that would be a horrible outcome.

 

[Bretta]

On 28/03/2016 at 7:14 AM, VelociRapture said:

So, maybe someone who knows more about IBLP can give their thoughts on this.

Now that the Board has gotten rid of Gothard, do you think there will be any changes in teachings - or have there already been changes? For instance, would dancing suddenly be considered ok? Or could they change their views on miscarriages bring the mother's fault?

I'm obviously not going to hold my breath or anything. I'm just curious what could happen.

As someone who was on the fringe of IBLP (still get some small newsletters, and loads of fundies/ex-fundies alike on my FB) and  was involved before the Duggars were the huge thing they are today.... I don't think things have changed much. Maybe people are moving away and becoming more mainstream evangelical (which has always been a trend in less hardcore ATI families as kids and teens turn into adults)  but in terms of the basic teaching, the seven principles, the Basic and Advanced seminars, those things are still around and being propagated because that's the point of the whole ministry, to "give the world a new approach to life". Once all these teachings go, there's no point to the organization (I think). 

 

As far as I know, I think the basic seminars (the backbone of the whole doctrine) are still a thing since Mr. G. left. They don't seem to have any coming up, but they're definitely having Children's Institutes (kiddie version of the Basic Seminar) and the seminars are still featured the Embassy website. They're definitely having Journey to the Hearts, though the scale of the events probably has shrunk a lot in the past few years.  If you look at the ministry, at the events their having, the books they're selling, you could get an impression that nothing has really changed. After all, there are now so many young people, who have been brought up with these teachings and can be the next "Bill Gothard" in terms of coming up with new lists and principles and written materials.

 

See their events page: http://iblp.org/events

 

In the past few years I think the Duggars and Bates (the mega-celebrities) have become bigger and bigger parts of the organization. They're become the public figures as well as the heavily featured guest speakers at the conferences, and a lot new members join ATI possibly because of them (I read that somewhere in some article).

 

Which is why when Erin Paine said that she's not involved/affiliated, I'm not entirely sure (quite doubtful in fact) that that means she's rejected IBLP teachings - she's been on trips, been raised in the system, her parents are yearly seminar speakers and board members, she married another prominent ATI graduate... you couldn't get someone more born and bred ATI/IBLP. Maybe if she starts playing jazz and rock for her piano cds then that'll be a different story. 

 

Furthermore, even if families or individuals leave ATI/IBLP, they could easily just join another fundamentalist movement - reformed, the Pearls, non-affliated, IFB, etc. etc. And most fundamentalists believe the same thing about dancing, miscarriages - it's either the same, more extreme, or more mainstream evangelical.

 

The thing about ATI is that it means different things to different people, families usually pick and choose what "convictions" they want to follow. Not all members don't eat pork, for example. Some wear jeans and shorts.. There are no straightforward rules, only "good ideas", principles, guidelines, etc. Except when it comes to conferences and HQ, then "convictions" become more rule-like (for example, you have to agree to certain "convictions" or "commitments" before becoming a volunteer or teacher). Conformity is expected at conferences especially with the young people, though you'll see a wide spectrum again in terms of how long the skirts are, whether they wear headcoverings, etc. etc.

[SilverBeach]

I feel honored that the title of this thread was taken from (I assume) a post in the prior thread where I used the phrase like lipstick on a pig. It's not complimentary to the Bateseses nor is it meant to be. I'm surprised that those who "like" them didn't complain about the thread title being not nice.

[nelliebelle1197]

@Bretta I need to like this 67 times.

[SilverBeach]

@Bretta, thank you for the informative post about IBLP.

[Exjw2015deed]

Who can I blame for sending me down the rabbit hole of Ashley salyer's blog? She better delete it now if she wants to fit in with the media savvy bates. She has one post where she writes crazy pro-life, homophobic, and transphobic statements in one paragraph. I think she wrote it when she was 16, but it still made me cringe.  

[mango_fandango]

16 hours ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

Kim Jong-Boob!!

New favourite nickname EVER. 

I burst out laughing at Kim Jong-Boob. DYING. 

[Snarkle]

Speaking of the original tentpole of IBLP, the Jim Sammons Financial Freedom seminars - forgive me if I missed it somewhere, a search just comes up with quotes how the Duggars and other IBLP/ATI followers use the system.  Is there a review of it somewhere, or basic points about it?  I teach a course on Personal Finance, and would be interested to see just what it promotes (other than just "be debt free").  Considering the damage done by the financial crisis around 2008-2009, I wonder how much it actually affected a lot of these fundies.  If they don't take out mortgages or buy things on credit, than low interest rates don't mean much to them.  They mostly work for themselves, so it's not like they could be laid off.  I do wonder how the recession affected people like the Bates since in some cases tree work would be considered something that could be done without (like lawn care), whereas in other cases it's necessary work (like after a storm).  I guess living in a cheaper area of the country makes it easier to deal with economic fluctuations.  Although it would be a fascinating case study to see how the fundies who live by these seminars do over 2-3 generations of very large families - not just the cherry-picked, in the spotlight Duggars and Bateseses and so on who get TV money - the run-of-the-mill, overwhelmed fundies.  It would also be interesting to see how many of them rely on each other for income (ala those who work at IBLP/ATI and the Maxwells), how many truly are self-employed, and how many are employed in "regular" society (like Derek Dillard working at WalMart).

I remember reading on a conservative Christian site a number of years ago how some churches and fundie groups encourage members to enter "mainstream" society, including attending state universities and studying and getting involved in things like science and politics, in order to better influence others and spread their beliefs and the Gospel - pretty much being missionaries without the label and on the down low.  This is on par with the dangerous way that Gothard followers have managed to infiltrate greater society by focusing on babies and marriages and happy events on TV while downplaying their true beliefs and intentions and the sinister side of those things.  Heck, even when bad news comes out that is shocking (Josh for one), enough people still downplay it and try to explain it away.  I still shudder when I think about these fundies' influence on politics and society.  (I'm looking at you, Taliban Dan.  Good luck with the redrawing of congressional maps!) 

[Bretta]

4 hours ago, Snarkle said:

Speaking of the original tentpole of IBLP, the Jim Sammons Financial Freedom seminars - forgive me if I missed it somewhere, a search just comes up with quotes how the Duggars and other IBLP/ATI followers use the system.  Is there a review of it somewhere, or basic points about it?  I teach a course on Personal Finance, and would be interested to see just what it promotes (other than just "be debt free").

You could always watch it at Embassy Online... but the jist of it is basically 1) Never get into debt 2) Never ever have a business partner. Especially a non Christian business partner.

 

It's not so much financial advice as it is religious teaching about the subject of finances. It would probably be a bore for you!

 

There are also loads of financial advice in the basic and advanced seminar textbooks if I remember correctly... about why women should stay home and not work, about how to avoid get-rich-quick-scams, and almost every seemingly random topic.

According to the iblp website (http://iblp.org/seminars-conferences/financial-freedom-seminar), there are the topics for the FF seminar (I only saw parts of it, never in its entirety)

Quote

 

What it really means to be financially free.

God’s four purposes for money.

Identifying and rejecting false financial concepts.

Establishing the tithe as a “weekly reminder.”

Learning to live within your income.

Developing sales resistance.

How to get the best buy.

Reasons to avoid business partnerships.

And much more!

 

 

[Bretta]

4 hours ago, Snarkle said:

I remember reading on a conservative Christian site a number of years ago how some churches and fundie groups encourage members to enter "mainstream" society, including attending state universities and studying and getting involved in things like science and politics, in order to better influence others and spread their beliefs and the Gospel - pretty much being missionaries without the label and on the down low.  This is on par with the dangerous way that Gothard followers have managed to infiltrate greater society by focusing on babies and marriages and happy events on TV while downplaying their true beliefs and intentions and the sinister side of those things.  Heck, even when bad news comes out that is shocking (Josh for one), enough people still downplay it and try to explain it away.  I still shudder when I think about these fundies' influence on politics and society.  (I'm looking at you, Taliban Dan.  Good luck with the redrawing of congressional maps!) 

That's more of mainstream evangelicalism IMO. There's such a thing called "tentmaking" ministry, where you work in a normal job and also serve a missionary of sorts (but this is not really an exclusively or primarily fundie thing).

Fundies generally thrive from the fact that they must preserve their children from the evil world. They must protect the innocence and purity of children and never expose them to worldly people, worldly music, worldly movies, worldly values, etc. In some ways it's operating out of fear-based parenting.  Basically it's isolation and indoctrination all rolled into one. Then when they're trained enough, they can send them "out" on approved missions. But the lifestyle (clothing, choices, convictions, education) are supposed to be their testimony

Being out of place and unusual (the core IBLP doctrine of "standing alone") is very important. So is parent/sibling/family dependency. You're supposed to be very, very attached to your parents to the point of never making a decision without them. Brothers and sisters are best friends (who needs friends outside the family?)

I don't see ATI people going so far as to send their young adults to secular colleges or to get very secular jobs because:

1) It opens you to worldly influences

2) It removes you from your "umbrella of authority" and protection, and places you under the training and authority of people not your parents ie. your boss, your professors

There's always that balance between being a witness of your beliefs to the ungodly world, and being in a place where you are being influenced by the ungodly world. The best way to be a witness is by raising a huge godly family and living a very godly lifestyle, eating the right food, having home births, wearing modest clothing etc. etc and raising your children to be superChristians. You must be super polite, super friendly, super kind and also positive "yup yup yup".

You're right about them wanting to convert society. At the very  end of the Basic seminar is a short graph showing how through the "right" lifestyle and morals, society and politics can be changed. Political involvement and support of conservative politicians is a huge must in IBLP.  Basically the theory is that if society at first resists moral decline, then accepts it a generation later, society will resist moral revival and then accept it a generation later.

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

13 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the bolded - do you not see the absolute hubris in assuming you can look at her actions and for the public statements and pictures and know anything about what's in her head?  Much less clearly ...

I was married for 10 years.  When I filed for divorce many people who knew us were shocked.  They knew how happy we were because we didn't fight, such a beautiful family...cute couple (such a handsome husband...isn't she lucky!) and absolutely adorable kids.  And I was such a good mommy and he worked so hard to take care of us...we clearly had everything.

The people who really knew us?  Their reaction was far more along the lines of 'what took you so long?'

I'm not saying she is or isn't happy...I'm saying there is no possible way to know anything about what they are thinking from the parts of their lives they choose to present to you, their audience.  

You seem to be her biggest fan, but I personally would resent the hell out of strangers assuming they knew anything about how I felt about my family or faith based on anything other than what I actually say.

 

I think though that when you put yourself out there on television, you have to expect assumptions about the persona you put on publicly. Now, Alyssa has said she never chose to be made famous and go on TV as a minor, but she is now 21 and could say no if she wanted to. She seems to have limited the amount she appears, but is still putting herself out there publicly. 

And perhaps you are right, but if she is putting on this 'I love my life' thing while not feeling it, she can join the ranks of millions and millions of people who present their lives as happier than they really are via social media. I've been guilty of this before. 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I think though that when you put yourself out there on television, you have to expect assumptions about the persona you put on publicly. Now, Alyssa has said she never chose to be made famous and go on TV as a minor, but she is now 21 and could say no if she wanted to. She seems to have limited the amount she appears, but is still putting herself out there publicly. 

And perhaps you are right, but if she is putting on this 'I love my life' thing while not feeling it, she can join the ranks of millions and millions of people who present their lives as happier than they really are via social media. I've been guilty of this before. 

 

But you aren't letting your FIL use your apparently happy life to back a very damaging political agenda. Nor you have married a known member of a cult that profits from the apparently happy and shiny image you show to the world.  IBLP is going through a damage control phase and Alyssa Webster is apparently sticking to the plan.

The thing is that we see only what they want us to see, so superficial and small changes are in no way indicative of anyone's change of mind. Much less of "she's showing the middle finger to her upbringing" (loosely paraphrasing). 

[rosalitta]

Thanks for all of the insight @Bretta!  

Now I'm wondering if in an attempt at modernization IBLP will offer seminars on how to have a godly instagram and such.  As we have seen, a lot of the younger set have been using it a ton to promote their families/ideas.  Especially because I would totally have thought instagram would be too "worldly" for them.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I think though that when you put yourself out there on television, you have to expect assumptions about the persona you put on publicly. Now, Alyssa has said she never chose to be made famous and go on TV as a minor, but she is now 21 and could say no if she wanted to. She seems to have limited the amount she appears, but is still putting herself out there publicly. 

And perhaps you are right, but if she is putting on this 'I love my life' thing while not feeling it, she can join the ranks of millions and millions of people who present their lives as happier than they really are via social media. I've been guilty of this before. 

 

You have completely missed my point.  I never said she was putting anything on, in fact I expressly said there is no way for any of us to know what she thinks from her media presentation.