Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[HereticHick]

2 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

Wowee there's a lot of bouffant hair going on in those photos!!!

A lot of hair in general! 

I hope someone threw out Michael's teddy jumper...

As with the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), big hair is one of the few ways that Gothardite females can express themselves.

[OrchidBlossom]

On 3/26/2016 at 4:36 PM, VelociRapture said:

Tomorrow marks one month since my miscarriage. I made the mistake of watching Carson's birth episode today - now I understand why so many people here kind of cheer for Cherin. That episode was so genuinely emotional - it actually took me by surprise how emotional I got watching it (probably because I can understand a bit the type of emotional pain they must have suffered to get to that point.) 

I know their beliefs are horrible and I don't condone the things they believe at all. I don't expect them to change their views on anything - I'm not holding out hope for either of them to escape the cult... But I can't help but feel glad that they finally had such a beautiful baby and I hope very much that things turn out well when she gives birth again later this year.

Sorry for your loss.

On the topic of Cherin I will say I hold out more hope for them (Still very little, sadly) than for other fundies because Chad seems to be a genuinely good and loving husband who cares about Erin, and because of the completely odious beliefs that IBLP espouses about miscarriages, I wonder if it hasn't seen both of them take a step back. I'm sure those teachings were extremely hurtful to Erin. If it did cause them to reexamine even just those small subset of ideas within fundieland, it may be enough of a crack for them to grow together into fundie lite or even just conservative.

[Tomboy]

1 hour ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

These pictures confirm that I always suspected: Alyssa never had any time for this crap.

She's kinda become my pet fundie. I live for how much she clearly hated all this nonsense and now is basically giving the finger to it all by living a happy life in cute dresses and pants. YOU GO ALYSSA......and may you set a shining example for Josie to follow you. 

I totally feel the same way Alyssa has always been my favorite. Also I have a hunch that Josie will be the the next to rebel!(I can only hope)

[actuallyjessica]

I totally feel the same way Alyssa has always been my favorite. Also I have a hunch that Josie will be the the next to rebel!(I can only hope)

There is no way Carlin and Tori are being married off to a Brandon Keilen type and stuck in dresses forever.

[Snarkle]

1 minute ago, Tomboy said:

I totally feel the same way Alyssa has always been my favorite. Also I have a hunch that Josie will be the the next to rebel!(I can only hope)

Well Josie's cousins from Gil's brother Greg's family are closer in age and they see them often, so Josie does get a glimpse into what a good homeschool education can look like, as well as what it's like to be fundie-lite.  Same thing with Alyssa adoring her grandma Jane - who lives right next to Greg's family - Alyssa has an older role model to look up to who isn't steeped in IBLP/ATI and isn't really into the hardline beliefs Gil and Kelly have adopted.  Basically unlike the Duggars whose grandma lives with them but is as on board the crazy train as the rest of them (except for cousin Amy, who they somewhat look down on for her life choices), the Bates kids at least have close family they see often who model a life which is still conservative, but not as extreme.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

6 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

There is no way Carlin and Tori are being married off to a Brandon Keilen type and stuck in dresses forever.

That is why I don't think either of them will end up courting Joe Duggar. Neither of them "keep sweet" and I can't imagine Kim Jong-Boob letting his son marry a sassy mouthed girl who will gladly tell it how she sees it. 

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

1 hour ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

That is why I don't think either of them will end up courting Joe Duggar. Neither of them "keep sweet" and I can't imagine Kim Jong-Boob letting his son marry a sassy mouthed girl who will gladly tell it how she sees it. 

Kim Jong-Boob!!

New favourite nickname EVER. 

[SilverBeach]

On 3/26/2016 at 10:03 AM, busdrivingmom said:

We had a motivational speaker come to a meeting at my last job (around 2010 -2011) and she brought up the phrase "Bless your Heart" in her talk.  She said that it was a more polite way to say someone was stupid.  She said that if someone said it to you, now we know it is not a good thing.  My co-workers took to using it liberally to describe other's stupid behavior.  Keep in mind we are in the Midwest so it was just weird. 

That's not the way I use it and I am in the Midwest.

On 3/28/2016 at 6:14 PM, VelociRapture said:

So, maybe someone who knows more about IBLP can give their thoughts on this.

Now that the Board has gotten rid of Gothard, do you think there will be any changes in teachings - or have there already been changes? For instance, would dancing suddenly be considered ok? Or could they change their views on miscarriages bring the mother's fault?

I'm obviously not going to hold my breath or anything. I'm just curious what could happen.

The board members were selected because they agreed with Gothards's "teachings". Nothing will change, IBLP is committed to its nastiness.

[nelliebelle1197]

 

10 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

These pictures confirm that I always suspected: Alyssa never had any time for this crap.

She's kinda become my pet fundie. I live for how much she clearly hated all this nonsense and now is basically giving the finger to it all by living a happy life in cute dresses and pants. YOU GO ALYSSA......and may you set a shining example for Josie to follow you. 

How is she giving the finger to this? Because she changed her clothes? She married the son of an influential IBLP'er and wants ONLY 6-8 kids. The Websters have NEVER followed what laymen consider the IBLP "dress code". Neither do a ton of other IBLP'ers. There is no indication any where she has moved away from any of this.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

22 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

 

How is she giving the finger to this? Because she changed her clothes? She married the son of an influential IBLP'er and wants ONLY 6-8 kids. The Websters have NEVER followed what laymen consider the IBLP "dress code". Neither do a ton of other IBLP'ers. There is no indication any where she has moved away from any of this.

i think she is largely giving the finger to his crap in her own way. She's been raised to always have a happy countenance and to be content because anything less is displeasing to Jesus and makes her a spoiled brat who needs to reconnect with Jesus. She pretty clearly hated every second of those prairie dresses and secretly plotted how she'd change her life the first second she could even though she was raised to think having discontentful thoughts is wrong. Given that she made an instagram the day after she was married, she clearly wanted one and her parents probably said no......or she knew it just wasn't worth asking them! 

Alyssa hasn't run off to Jersey Shore or anything, but she's made it clear through her actions she basically hates the way she was raised and now that she is 'free', will do what she likes.

(I just hope to hell she isn't blanket training sweet little Allie Jana. Hopefully Mama Jana has told Alyssa she was able to raise her kids just fine without it.....)

[Palimpsest]

Now, now, @nelliebelle1197.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  Putting on a pair of pants clearly means that a woman is pro-choice, pro-contraception, pro-same sex marriage, hates the way she was raised, and has obviously left the cult far behind her.  I mean she never visits her family any more does she?  (Oops, yes she does.)

Alyssa sporting pants and sleeveless tops couldn't possibly mean that her husband has indicated that under his umbrella of protection it is OK if she ditches the frumpers and modest-wear, especially when they are on the campaign trail with Daddy.  Frumpers would look too Duggarish and IBLP and we really wouldn't want anyone to dwell on that connection, would we.

I'd be willing to bet that if Johnny Webster told her to go back to frumpers and prairie frocks Alyssa would comply immediately.  It's the way she was raised, and she hasn't left that behind by marrying another well-indoctrinated offspring of the cult.

[ophelia]

@LawsonBatesEgo you are my personal hero for creating the so far BEST Jim Bob Duggar nickname in the history of FJ!

[LawsonBatesEgo]

19 minutes ago, ophelia said:

@LawsonBatesEgo you are my personal hero for creating the so far BEST Jim Bob Duggar nickname in the history of FJ!

It fits because they both expect to be blindly worshipped and looked at adoringly by their subjects. 

[ophelia]

And their hairstyling choices are the worst!!

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Now, now, @nelliebelle1197.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  Putting on a pair of pants clearly means that a woman is pro-choice, pro-contraception, pro-same sex marriage, hates the way she was raised, and has obviously left the cult far behind her.  I mean she never visits her family any more does she?  (Oops, yes she does.)

Alyssa sporting pants and sleeveless tops couldn't possibly mean that her husband has indicated that under his umbrella of protection it is OK if she ditches the frumpers and modest-wear, especially when they are on the campaign trail with Daddy.  Frumpers would look too Duggarish and IBLP and we really wouldn't want anyone to dwell on that connection, would we.

I'd be willing to bet that if Johnny Webster told her to go back to frumpers and prairie frocks Alyssa would comply immediately.  It's the way she was raised, and she hasn't left that behind by marrying another well-indoctrinated offspring of the cult.

John has said they will have as many children as Alyssa decides (she says 6, he would like more). I think it's the clearest idea about John respecting her and both being less fundie than Bates. Limiting to 6 kids means birth control. 

[habert]

Alyssa's only been married barely two years, we don't have much to go on about how her life will turn out. I think it's a disservice to discount changing clothes and moving as nothing, when if you grow up in a household that firmly tries to instill purity codes in you. Either Alysaa questioned while she was living there or she quickly started questioning when she moved out. Those are big deals!

I think it's also a disservice to say her FIL has that much control in her life. Neither she nor John are her FIL. 

That being said, I highly doubt Alyssa is now spouting liberal ideas and politics at home. I have no doubt she is still internalizing misogyny, tries to find satisfaction in being a "service" to her husband, and will probably have more kids. I would bet money she's homophobic and classist. However, there are people who aren't gothardites who are all those things as well.

She may continue to still be those things or she may change. For some people the changes come after a long hard personal battle. We aren't watching a tv character with planned out character development arcs that we can actually predict. She's a real person. 

Pants are a big deal. They don't predict the rest of her life though. 

[samurai_sarah]

13 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

John has said they will have as many children as Alyssa decides (she says 6, he would like more). I think it's the clearest idea about John respecting her and both being less fundie than Bates. Limiting to 6 kids means birth control. 

A politically wise statement, given his father's career. It really tells us very little about what's going on. It sounds like he is respecting her wishes, but we are told nothing about her being actually in charge of her fertility. So, I remain doubtful about any actual change in their ideology, until someone comes out and says that they believe in birth control.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

15 minutes ago, habert said:

Alyssa's only been married barely two years, we don't have much to go on about how her life will turn out. I think it's a disservice to discount changing clothes and moving as nothing, when if you grow up in a household that firmly tries to instill purity codes in you. Either Alysaa questioned while she was living there or she quickly started questioning when she moved out. Those are big deals!

I think it's also a disservice to say her FIL has that much control in her life. Neither she nor John are her FIL. 

That being said, I highly doubt Alyssa is now spouting liberal ideas and politics at home. I have no doubt she is still internalizing misogyny, tries to find satisfaction in being a "service" to her husband, and will probably have more kids. I would bet money she's homophobic and classist. However, there are people who aren't gothardites who are all those things as well.

She may continue to still be those things or she may change. For some people the changes come after a long hard personal battle. We aren't watching a tv character with planned out character development arcs that we can actually predict. She's a real person. 

Pants are a big deal. They don't predict the rest of her life though. 

You explained what I'm thinking better than I did.

Rome wasn't built in a day. It's unrealistic to expect Alyssa to be out there at a Hillary Clinton rally and instagramming herself at Pro Planned Parenthood rallies. 

But clothing is a really big part of personal self expression and to me, the fact Alyssa has rejected a very big part of her upbringing and defends herself against internet trolls when they ask about it is a pretty big step for someone who was taught blind obedience. 

But like I said, she has become my pet fundie because I just love watching the way she is 110% over her family and has been for quite some times and is now basically marching to the beat of 'I did it MY WAY' by Frank Sinatra, even if 'her way' isn't as far removed from her upbringing as we would like to see. 

[RoseWilder]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Now, now, @nelliebelle1197.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  Putting on a pair of pants clearly means that a woman is pro-choice, pro-contraception, pro-same sex marriage, hates the way she was raised, and has obviously left the cult far behind her.  I mean she never visits her family any more does she?  (Oops, yes she does.)

I don't think anyone is saying that wearing pants means she's pro-choice, pro-contraception and pro-same sex marriage. But I don't understand the extreme thinking here either. There's a wide range of things in between cult-indoctrinated Fundie and being a liberal. Not every person who leaves the cult is going to become a liberal. Some of them will become fundie-lite, some conservative Christians, and some will go full scale in the opposite direction and become liberals. And some of them will make that leap quickly, and some will do it gradually. I think any movement away from the cult is a good thing, and an encouraging sign that more change could occur in the future. 

And why does leaving behind their parents beliefs mean she has to cut off all contact with her family? I know a lot of people who have totally different beliefs than the ones they were raised in but they still maintain contact with their family. 

[19 cats and counting]

The real test for any of the Bates offspring moving away from the cult hasn't come yet.  It will be with their kids' education choices.  Right now the oldest Bates grandchild is 17 months old and clearly too young for school.  If Bradley, Allie Jane, Carson, Kaci or Brooklyn go to public school then we can safely say their parents are distancing themselves from ATI/IBLP.

[ophelia]

35 minutes ago, habert said:

Alyssa's only been married barely two years, we don't have much to go on about how her life will turn out. I think it's a disservice to discount changing clothes and moving as nothing, when if you grow up in a household that firmly tries to instill purity codes in you. Either Alysaa questioned while she was living there or she quickly started questioning when she moved out. Those are big deals!

I think it's also a disservice to say her FIL has that much control in her life. Neither she nor John are her FIL. 

That being said, I highly doubt Alyssa is now spouting liberal ideas and politics at home. I have no doubt she is still internalizing misogyny, tries to find satisfaction in being a "service" to her husband, and will probably have more kids. I would bet money she's homophobic and classist. However, there are people who aren't gothardites who are all those things as well.

She may continue to still be those things or she may change. For some people the changes come after a long hard personal battle. We aren't watching a tv character with planned out character development arcs that we can actually predict. She's a real person. 

Pants are a big deal. They don't predict the rest of her life though. 

THIS. So much! Clothing really is an important way for a lot of people to display their personalities and standings. And given the fact that a woman like Alyssa, with her upbringing and the family she (was) married into, has very limited possibilities to epxress herself (since she cannot pursue a degree or a career) I think it's kind of a huge deal. Of course, like other people already said, that doesn't mean she's anywhere near to being liberal, but she became at least a little bit more worldly. This is probably necessary considering the fact that her FIL is a politician and needs to attract people out of the fundieworld as well.

I'm really wondering if Gil and Kelly were really suprised about these changes in her lifestyle. On the one hand patriarchy consists of the idea that once a woman is married she has to submit to her husband and his beliefs and choices and on the other hand I think the fact that she now dresses the way she does and wants to limit the size of her brood were already part of the pre-wedding negotiations that her father and FIL did during the courtship and engagement.Maybe this was the deal! It meant a quite popular (in fundie and conservatice christian circles at least) and good looking daughter-in-law for the Websters, Gil had one mouth less to feed and Alyssa really wanted to get out!

[19 cats and counting]

2 minutes ago, ophelia said:

THIS. So much! Clothing really is an important way for a lot of people to display their personalities and standings. And given the fact that a woman like Alyssa, with her upbringing and the family she (was) married into, has very limited possibilities to epxress herself (since she cannot pursue a degree or a career) I think it's kind of a huge deal. Of course, like other people already said, that doesn't mean she's anywhere near to being liberal, but she became at least a little bit more worldly. This is probably necessary considering the fact that her FIL is a politician and needs to attract people out of the fundieworld as well.

 

She could have pursued a degree.  Her three sisters are working on or have completed degrees (Michael at community college, Erin and Tori at Crown).  (I also believe Nathan and Trace are/were at Crown).  I think that Kelly said she took classes at Crown and dropped out once she realized she had a Mrs. Degree already.  

[Ali]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

John has said they will have as many children as Alyssa decides (she says 6, he would like more). I think it's the clearest idea about John respecting her and both being less fundie than Bates. Limiting to 6 kids means birth control. 

I have heard Jim Bob say that he lets Michelle decide more than once. Also, just because she is saying she only wants six does not mean that they are not leaving the number of children up to God.

[ophelia]

You are right. Now that you mentioned that, I remembered Kelly saying that. But how much is this degree of the Clown College really worth? But of course, it is better than nothing.

[Palimpsest]

12 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I don't think anyone is saying that wearing pants means she's pro-choice, pro-contraception and pro-same sex marriage. But I don't understand the extreme thinking here either. There's a wide range of things in between cult-indoctrinated Fundie and being a liberal. Not every person who leaves the cult is going to become a liberal. Some of them will become fundie-lite, some conservative Christians, and some will go full scale in the opposite direction and become liberals. And some of them will make that leap quickly, and some will do it gradually. I think any movement away from the cult is a good thing, and an encouraging sign that more change could occur in the future. 

And why does leaving behind their parents beliefs mean she has to cut off all contact with her family? I know a lot of people who have totally different beliefs than the ones they were raised in but they still maintain contact with their family. 

Perhaps you missed the fact that I was being heavily sarcastic?  Really, the swooning over Alyssa and the Bates family is getting on my nerves (not meaning you specifically, but general swooning on this thread).

I'd be really happy if any one of the second generation makes an escape.  Wearing pants, saying you only want 6 children (or hoping that "God only gives" you 6) and having an instagram account is not enough evidence to think that Alyssa is moving away from these beliefs, however.  Alyssa is still stumping for her father-in-law's re-election on a poisonous platform and her husband is still sucking from the teat of the Webster family business, so I don't think they are making any huge steps away from the cult as yet.

I actually know quite a lot about this subject and how difficult it is to grow away from the beliefs instilled in childhood.  I think it is a real  pity that people are still so focused on Alyssa wearing pants and the Bates family as being "better" than the Duggars, when they could be praising Cynthia Jeub or Alecia Faith Pennington - and many others who are making real attempts to escape the cult and are working hard to combat their indoctrination. 

It would be nice to see Alyssa/any Bates go to college - a real accredited college - at some point.