Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[LawsonBatesEgo]

9 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

She could have pursued a degree.  Her three sisters are working on or have completed degrees (Michael at community college, Erin and Tori at Crown).  (I also believe Nathan and Trace are/were at Crown).  I think that Kelly said she took classes at Crown and dropped out once she realized she had a Mrs. Degree already.  

I can't help but think she got married ASAP to get out of El Casa Too Many People and Frumpy Clothes. 

But the difference seems to be that unlike Jessa, she seems well matched to her spouse and he seems to be a little more mature than Bin. 

I feel like I am really over defending Alyssa today, but don't the Bates basically offer to pay for the kids first semester at Crown to see if it is for them? Maybe Alyssa didn't like college. I'm a big advocate of college education, but appreciate it is not for everyone, especially if she'd have had to come up with the money herself. Plus as a woman at crown, she's kinda screwed anyway unless she wants to be a 'teacher' right? 

[19 cats and counting]

1 minute ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

But the difference seems to be that unlike Jessa, she seems well matched to her spouse and he seems to be a little more mature than Bin. 

 

Isn't he also something like 5 years older than her?  I could be wrong, but his (and her) maturity are light years ahead of Bin.  He also has a job that does not involve cleaning toilets for his FIL.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 minutes ago, ophelia said:

You are right. Now that you mentioned that, I remembered Kelly saying that. But how much is this degree of the Clown College really worth? But of course, it is better than nothing.

I have no idea what it's worth in the fundy world, but in the real hiring world it's actually worse than nothing to a lot of hiring managers.

The choice to spend time and money to go to an unaccredited school calls their judgement into question.  They'd need a very good explanation to refute the assumption that they value being isolated with only those of the same faith over the strategically smarter choice.  

All kinds of red flags in that.

Idk if Crown has some type of vocational program where it might be better than nothing for some hands on stuff...but for a typical business or liberal arts degree it will hurt more than it helps.

[RoseWilder]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Perhaps you missed the fact that I was being heavily sarcastic?  Really, the swooning over Alyssa and the Bates family is getting on my nerves (not meaning you specifically, but general swooning on this thread).

I'd be really happy if any one of the second generation makes an escape.  Wearing pants, saying you only want 6 children (or hoping that "God only gives" you 6) and having an instagram account is not enough evidence to think that Alyssa is moving away from these beliefs, however.  Alyssa is still stumping for her father-in-law's re-election on a poisonous platform and her husband is still sucking from the teat of the Webster family business, so I don't think they are making any huge steps away from the cult as yet.

I actually know quite a lot about this subject and how difficult it is to grow away from the beliefs instilled in childhood.  I think it is a real  pity that people are still so focused on Alyssa wearing pants and the Bates family as being "better" than the Duggars, when they could be praising Cynthia Jeub or Alecia Faith Pennington - and many others who are making real attempts to escape the cult and are working hard to combat their indoctrination. 

It would be nice to see Alyssa/any Bates go to college - a real accredited college - at some point.

No, I didn't miss that you were being sarcastic. 

And for the record, I don't think the Bates family is better than the Duggar family. I realize there are a lot of people who believe that but I don't. I think the Bates family is better at keeping their shit together on social media than the Duggars (Lawson, of course, being the exception.) 

But I do genuinely see signs that some of the Bates kids are moving away from their parents beliefs. I don't have any illusions there - I think they still have a long way to go and I'm reasonably sure they still vote in a way that would repulse me. But I see some steps being made, and that makes me hopeful that more steps will be made in the future. 

I think another difference between the Bates and the Duggars is that the Duggar children who are now married have had less privacy. They seem addicted to the fame and unable to live without it. I think this drives a lot of their decisions. I think more of their children would be making steps away from the cult too if they hadn't been on TV for the last 12 years. It will be interesting to see what happens with the younger Bates children who are currently growing up on TV. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

26 minutes ago, Ali said:

I have heard Jim Bob say that he lets Michelle decide more than once. Also, just because she is saying she only wants six does not mean that they are not leaving the number of children up to God.

This.  JB was a politician and John Webster is a son of a politician.  As conservative as their stances were/are they aren't about to give a sound byte saying in effect "the little lady will have as many as I throw into her, and if she wanted a choice in the matter she should have been born a man.  heh"

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

i think she is largely giving the finger to his crap in her own way. She's been raised to always have a happy countenance and to be content because anything less is displeasing to Jesus and makes her a spoiled brat who needs to reconnect with Jesus. She pretty clearly hated every second of those prairie dresses and secretly plotted how she'd change her life the first second she could even though she was raised to think having discontentful thoughts is wrong. Given that she made an instagram the day after she was married, she clearly wanted one and her parents probably said no......or she knew it just wasn't worth asking them! 

Alyssa hasn't run off to Jersey Shore or anything, but she's made it clear through her actions she basically hates the way she was raised and now that she is 'free', will do what she likes.

(I just hope to hell she isn't blanket training sweet little Allie Jana. Hopefully Mama Jana has told Alyssa she was able to raise her kids just fine without it.....)

To the bolded - do you not see the absolute hubris in assuming you can look at her actions and for the public statements and pictures and know anything about what's in her head?  Much less clearly ...

I was married for 10 years.  When I filed for divorce many people who knew us were shocked.  They knew how happy we were because we didn't fight, such a beautiful family...cute couple (such a handsome husband...isn't she lucky!) and absolutely adorable kids.  And I was such a good mommy and he worked so hard to take care of us...we clearly had everything.

The people who really knew us?  Their reaction was far more along the lines of 'what took you so long?'

I'm not saying she is or isn't happy...I'm saying there is no possible way to know anything about what they are thinking from the parts of their lives they choose to present to you, their audience.  

You seem to be her biggest fan, but I personally would resent the hell out of strangers assuming they knew anything about how I felt about my family or faith based on anything other than what I actually say.

 

[Palimpsest]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the bolded - do you not see the absolute hubris in assuming you can look at her actions and for the public statements and pictures and know anything about what's in her head?  Much less clearly ...

I was married for 10 years.  When I filed for divorce many people who knew us were shocked.  They knew how happy we were because we didn't fight, such a beautiful family...cute couple (such a handsome husband...isn't she lucky!) and absolutely adorable kids.  And I was such a good mommy and he worked so hard to take care of us...we clearly had everything.

The people who really knew us?  Their reaction was far more along the lines of 'what took you so long?'

I'm not saying she is or isn't happy...I'm saying there is no possible way to know anything about what they are thinking from the parts of their lives they choose to present to you, their audience.  

You seem to be her biggest fan, but I personally would resent the hell out of strangers assuming they knew anything about how I felt about my family or faith based on anything other than what I actually say.

 

This. X100.  

[RoseWilder]

10 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm not saying she is or isn't happy...I'm saying there is no possible way to know anything about what they are thinking from the parts of their lives they choose to present to you, their audience.  

But the same could be said to those who are claiming they haven't made any steps away from the cult (not directing that at you.) There are a lot of people on this board who are pretty insistent that Alyssa believes all the things her parents believe still, or that she believes all the things her husband's family believes, when we really don't know that for sure. 

What we do know for sure is that she isn't living exactly the way her parents live. She's not dressing like them. She's not publicly declaring that she will have as many kids as possible. I consider those positive steps. I don't consider that absolute proof that she's left the cult, but I think there is definitely reason to still be hopeful where she is concerned. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

19 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

But the same could be said to those who are claiming they haven't made any steps away from the cult (not directing that at you.) There are a lot of people on this board who are pretty insistent that Alyssa believes all the things her parents believe still, or that she believes all the things her husband's family believes, when we really don't know that for sure. 

What we do know for sure is that she isn't living exactly the way her parents live. She's not dressing like them. She's not publicly declaring that she will have as many kids as possible. I consider those positive steps. I don't consider that absolute proof that she's left the cult, but I think there is definitely reason to still be hopeful where she is concerned. 

My post was about declarative statements.  People can try to read the tea leaves but for me, I assume people believe what they say they do until they make a point to let people know that's changed.  

 

[Palimpsest]

 

42 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

But the same could be said to those who are claiming they haven't made any steps away from the cult (not directing that at you.) There are a lot of people on this board who are pretty insistent that Alyssa believes all the things her parents believe still, or that she believes all the things her husband's family believes, when we really don't know that for sure. 

What we do know for sure is that she isn't living exactly the way her parents live. She's not dressing like them. She's not publicly declaring that she will have as many kids as possible. I consider those positive steps. I don't consider that absolute proof that she's left the cult, but I think there is definitely reason to still be hopeful where she is concerned. 

Where have you seen that?

I haven't seen anyone claiming that Alyssa hasn't taken any steps away from Gothardism/IBLP at all.  I've seen a lot of people pointing out that there is no evidence that she has.   Squeeing over the fact that Alyssa is no longer skirts only, and apparently claimed that she would prefer to have only 6 children, only makes people look a little ridiculous.  It doesn't mean that she won't accept as many children as God gives her while keeping sweet.  Really, the way they dress is the least of it, and doesn't demonstrate that they are moving away from the cult at all.  

I wouldn't want to crush anyone's optimism.  However, I think some people are being far too facile, over-optimistic, and seriously under-estimating how hard it is to break away from the cult. 

I think we are all hopeful that some of the second generation move away from IBLP.  I just haven't seen any concrete signs whatsoever so far that any of the Bates offspring, including Alyssa, are doing so.  One the contrary, they all seem to be following the party line very closely - and that is a pity.  (No, Erin saying that they are no longer affiliated with ATI does not count, for reasons already explained above.)

I do agree that we don't know anything for sure.  I'm going to wait until one of them actually announces publicly that they are rejecting Gothardism before rejoicing.  

[actuallyjessica]

So, I remain doubtful about any actual change in their ideology, until someone comes out and says that they believe in birth control.

Why should somebody have to announce whether or not they believe in birth control or not, just to prove people right or wrong? I think people are dismissing any change because they're waiting for these second generation fundies to burn their bras, wave their condoms and BCP while public ally declaring their support for pro choice.

Even if their personal opinions change, they don't have to pu locally prove it for it to happen.

[samurai_sarah]

6 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Why should somebody have to announce whether or not they believe in birth control or not, just to prove people right or wrong? I think people are dismissing any change because they're waiting for these second generation fundies to burn their bras, wave their condoms and BCP while public ally declaring their support for pro choice.

Even if their personal opinions change, they don't have to pu locally prove it for it to happen.

Until they say that they believe in BC, I will not believe in them limiting their family. They have no obligation to tell me, and I won't believe them until then.

[RoseWilder]

45 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I haven't seen anyone claiming that Alyssa hasn't taken any steps away from Gothardism/IBLP at all.  

On several of the earlier Bates threads people have said that they hope the Bates children will leave the cult but they see absolutely no signs that's happening, when their clearly are signs. I've seen in over and over again in these general Bates family threads. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

[Kak]

13 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

On several of the earlier Bates threads people have said that they hope the Bates children will leave the cult but they see absolutely no signs that's happening, when their clearly are signs. I've seen in over and over again in these general Bates family threads. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I haven't seen any signs. As far as Alyssa goes I've seen superficial clothing changes which are not meaningful, as she is a Webster. What I have seen is that she got married and pregnant at 19 and stayed within her fundie circle. I believe John is her headship as I haven't yet seen anything tangible to refute this.

[SassyPants]

She can take steps away from her cult's thinking without becoming a flaming liberal.

I would think that FJ would be well beyond totally black and white thinking.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, SassyPants said:

She can take steps away from her cult's thinking without becoming a flaming liberal.

I would think that FJ would be well beyond totally black and white thinking.

 

I think it's more an example of black and white thinking to interpret jeans + sleeveless tops = moving away from Gothard.

People can interpret behaviors as they will, and what some people see as her breaking away from the cult other people view as likely just adopting her inlaws version of the cult.  There is no way to know.

FJ has a very diverse membership and while it's safe to say we tend to skew more liberal than fundies, people here are all over the place belief wise.  I'm pretty sure that should a Gothard Fundy Gen 2 enroll their kids in school, a young woman get a career and move out on her own before marriage, make any kind of public statement in support of family planning, or indeed any kind of public statement that women have options to live autonomously from their parents without a husband, there would be more hopeful people.

They don't owe us that - they don't owe it to us to leave their cult, either...but any of the above would be seen more universally as signs on divergence than some bared upper arms.  And those are hardly flamingly liberal positions.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think it's more an example of black and white thinking to interpret jeans + sleeveless tops = moving away from Gothard.

People can interpret behaviors as they will, and what some people see as her breaking away from the cult other people view as likely just adopting her inlaws version of the cult.  There is no way to know.

FJ has a very diverse membership and while it's safe to say we tend to skew more liberal than fundies, people here are all over the place belief wise.  I'm pretty sure that should a Gothard Fundy Gen 2 enroll their kids in school, a young woman get a career and move out on her own before marriage, make any kind of public statement in support of family planning, or indeed any kind of public statement that women have options to live autonomously from their parents without a husband, there would be more hopeful people.

They don't owe us that - they don't owe it to us to leave their cult, either...but any of the above would be seen more universally as signs on divergence than some bared upper arms.  And those are hardly flamingly liberal positions.

And we can all have our own POVs and express such as long as they fall within the cited guidelines.

I see no need to hit people over the head to conform to a certain POV-

[nelliebelle1197]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Perhaps you missed the fact that I was being heavily sarcastic?  Really, the swooning over Alyssa and the Bates family is getting on my nerves (not meaning you specifically, but general swooning on this thread).

I'd be really happy if any one of the second generation makes an escape.  Wearing pants, saying you only want 6 children (or hoping that "God only gives" you 6) and having an instagram account is not enough evidence to think that Alyssa is moving away from these beliefs, however.  Alyssa is still stumping for her father-in-law's re-election on a poisonous platform and her husband is still sucking from the teat of the Webster family business, so I don't think they are making any huge steps away from the cult as yet.

I actually know quite a lot about this subject and how difficult it is to grow away from the beliefs instilled in childhood.  I think it is a real  pity that people are still so focused on Alyssa wearing pants and the Bates family as being "better" than the Duggars, when they could be praising Cynthia Jeub or Alecia Faith Pennington - and many others who are making real attempts to escape the cult and are working hard to combat their indoctrination. 

It would be nice to see Alyssa/any Bates go to college - a real accredited college - at some point.

Thank you, Sister Palimpsest. And again, people seem to be forgetting what @formergothardite keeps saying- she has been seeing ATI/IBLP newsletters for years. Her family was in the cult. She has said there has always been a segment that is pants-wearing. And that segment has been growing as the ministry rebrands.

I notice a lot of people make a lot of assumptions about Gothard's ministries. Plenty of people are involved with ATI/IBLP but don't go to churches that embrace the ministries. It is not a church or denomination with hard and fast rules. It is a series of conferences, seminars, books, guides, educational material of questionable value, etc., that lay out the way to live your life according to Bill. It is a non-sectarian training organization. IT IS NOT A CHURCH.

And as someone who had an IFB/skirts only childhood, trust me. It is not as hard as one thinks to shed those below the knee skirts and embrace makeup, especially when you are a teen, like Alyssa was.

I, too, don't get the assumptions made about and the "love" for Alyssa. She comes off to me as a typically bitchy church mean girl with a grand opinion of her self. Erin and Michael seem much kinder, sweeter, accepting people. I don't even think Zach is that bad, and frankly shows more rebellion to me than the rest of the Bateseseseees put together.

And her kid is no where nearly as cute as Bradley!

 

 

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

On several of the earlier Bates threads people have said that they hope the Bates children will leave the cult but they see absolutely no signs that's happening, when their clearly are signs. I've seen in over and over again in these general Bates family threads. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I might be one of the people you are talking about. Do I think that the kids have moved away from how their parents believe, yes. Have they shown clear signs of moving away a from IBLP/very fundie mindset, not really. People deeply entrenched in IBLP wear shorts and sleeveless tops and don't have 19 kids. So Alyssa doing that doesn't mean a thing. A lot of newer IBLP kids end up at community colleges. Good that Michaela is going to college, but her husband's position in the cult shows that she isn't doing anything radical or unapproved. Zach getting involved in politics and the police force is something praised in IBLP. They WANT members running the government. 

In the end. all of the adult kids are involved in selling the dangerous lie that their parents live a harmless life and are "good people". They are all active in creating this online presence and reality television that is sugar coating evil. And yes, I do think Gil, Kelly and their beliefs are evil. 

 

 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

And we can all have our own POVs and express such as long as they fall within the cited guidelines.

I see no need to hit people over the head to conform to a certain POV-

But the rest of us are getting hit over the head with Bates fangirling. And we are going to call it out. The new subforum all of you wanted clearly says that Free Jinger is not a Bates fan site. And you think that was not intentional? And sorry, statements like "WHEEE! I LOVE ALYSSA!" are fangirling. It's not picking a pet fundie - we all have those and wish them well - it's doing just the opposite of what FJ is all about and those comments just aren't going to slide by without comment.

[Palimpsest]

3 hours ago, RoseWilder said:

On several of the earlier Bates threads people have said that they hope the Bates children will leave the cult but they see absolutely no signs that's happening, when their clearly are signs. I've seen in over and over again in these general Bates family threads. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I've read most of the earlier Bates Family threads. There are no clear signs that I can see either that any of the Bates family are leaving the cult.  Actually, far from it.

The clear signs that you can apparently discern from a semi-scripted unreality TV show that is little more than an infomercial for IBLP, and an instagram account or two - I see as mere wishful thinking.

 Sorry.

 

 

 

[amster]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

But the rest of us are getting hit over the head with Bates fangirling. And we are going to call it out. The new subforum all of you wanted clearly says that Free Jinger is not a Bates fan site. And you think that was not intentional? And sorry, statements like "WHEEE! I LOVE ALYSSA!" are fangirling. It's not picking a pet fundie - we all have those and wish them well - it's doing just the opposite of what FJ is all about and those comments just aren't going to slide by without comment.

Ok, but if you don't agree with it, why not stay out of the Bates subforum?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, amster said:

Ok, but if you don't agree with it, why not stay out of the Bates subforum?

Did you just ask her if she doesn't agree with the fan girling why she doesn't stay out of the Bates subforum?

This is not a Bates Fan Site.  

It's not going to be abandoned so people can squee over them.  I'm sure there are plenty of places online acting as the virtual Tiger Beat of Bateseseses so people talk about their cute clothes, and fun personalities, and fan fic about what they just know their favorite flavor pop-tarts must be...

but that isn't FJ. 

Good thing the leghumping is virtual or these people would all have friction burns by now.

 

 

[amster]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Did you just ask her if she doesn't agree with the fan girling why she doesn't stay out of the Bates subforum?

This is not a Bates Fan Site.  

It's not going to be abandoned so people can squee over them.  I'm sure there are plenty of places online acting as the virtual Tiger Beat of Bateseseses so people talk about their cute clothes, and fun personalities, and fan fic about what they just know their favorite flavor pop-tarts must be...

but that isn't FJ. 

Good thing the leghumping is virtual or these people would all have friction burns by now.

 

 

Yes, I did.

I am very aware that this is not a Bates Fan Site, nor did I say I was a Bates fan (and certainly not a leghumper). I also can read fine thanks, so you don't need to bold and italicise it for me.

However, I don't get my knickers in a knot over the fact that some people like them. Nor do I feel the need to remind everybody about their heinous beliefs every time someone makes a positive comment about one of them. It's getting old.

The fact of the matter is, some people are going to like them. Rather than coming here specifically to whinge, as opposed to than contributing to the conversation, I suggested that NellieBellie stay out of it. So sue me. I'm so sick of the handslapping around here when it comes to the Bates. I've been here since Yuku days. I may not post a lot, but I sure as hell lurk, so I know how this place works, and I've seen how the place has fallen apart.

[nelliebelle1197]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Did you just ask her if she doesn't agree with the fan girling why she doesn't stay out of the Bates subforum?

This is not a Bates Fan Site.  

It's not going to be abandoned so people can squee over them.  I'm sure there are plenty of places online acting as the virtual Tiger Beat of Bateseseses so people talk about their cute clothes, and fun personalities, and fan fic about what they just know their favorite flavor pop-tarts must be...

but that isn't FJ. 

Good thing the leghumping is virtual or these people would all have friction burns by now.

 

 

Yeah this. If you like to fangirl and don't like to be challenged, why don't you stay out?

That is a serious question. I don't get why everyone gets so up in arms because people are annoyed by "SQUEEEE! I LOVE ALYSSA!" on a forum with the explicit stated purpose of discussing why fundies suck and are dangerous to themselves and others. And why their over-indulged opinions are why we cannot have nice things in the US.

There is a massive difference about having fond feelings over a particular fundie (I think if anyone said awful things about the Seven Sisters or the Arndt boys, they'd face a hella lotta  damage on here) and rationalizing  everything they do because they are media-savvy and pretty.