Bates Family Part 13: Like Lipstick on a Pig

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, rosalitta said:

Thanks for all of the insight @Bretta!  

Now I'm wondering if in an attempt at modernization IBLP will offer seminars on how to have a godly instagram and such.  As we have seen, a lot of the younger set have been using it a ton to promote their families/ideas.  Especially because I would totally have thought instagram would be too "worldly" for them.

 

Bill Gothard once ranted about the evils of FB. And then in no time got himself a FB page.  Even he could see the plus side of social media, and people like the Bates can take it a lot farther because they know the impact of a well run social media life. Some of these fundies know how to put on a good show. 

I don't know if they would offer a class about it, but I bet that there is a lot of "encouragement" in families like the Bates to make sure none of the crazy is shown and to keep it all light and fluffy. 

 

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, Bretta said:

As someone who was on the fringe of IBLP (still get some small newsletters, and loads of fundies/ex-fundies alike on my FB) and  was involved before the Duggars were the huge thing they are today.... I don't think things have changed much. Maybe people are moving away and becoming more mainstream evangelical (which has always been a trend in less hardcore ATI families as kids and teens turn into adults)  but in terms of the basic teaching, the seven principles, the Basic and Advanced seminars, those things are still around and being propagated because that's the point of the whole ministry, to "give the world a new approach to life". Once all these teachings go, there's no point to the organization (I think). 

 

As far as I know, I think the basic seminars (the backbone of the whole doctrine) are still a thing since Mr. G. left. They don't seem to have any coming up, but they're definitely having Children's Institutes (kiddie version of the Basic Seminar) and the seminars are still featured the Embassy website. They're definitely having Journey to the Hearts, though the scale of the events probably has shrunk a lot in the past few years.  If you look at the ministry, at the events their having, the books they're selling, you could get an impression that nothing has really changed. After all, there are now so many young people, who have been brought up with these teachings and can be the next "Bill Gothard" in terms of coming up with new lists and principles and written materials.

 

See their events page: http://iblp.org/events

 

In the past few years I think the Duggars and Bates (the mega-celebrities) have become bigger and bigger parts of the organization. They're become the public figures as well as the heavily featured guest speakers at the conferences, and a lot new members join ATI possibly because of them (I read that somewhere in some article).

 

Which is why when Erin Paine said that she's not involved/affiliated, I'm not entirely sure (quite doubtful in fact) that that means she's rejected IBLP teachings - she's been on trips, been raised in the system, her parents are yearly seminar speakers and board members, she married another prominent ATI graduate... you couldn't get someone more born and bred ATI/IBLP. Maybe if she starts playing jazz and rock for her piano cds then that'll be a different story. 

 

Furthermore, even if families or individuals leave ATI/IBLP, they could easily just join another fundamentalist movement - reformed, the Pearls, non-affliated, IFB, etc. etc. And most fundamentalists believe the same thing about dancing, miscarriages - it's either the same, more extreme, or more mainstream evangelical.

 

The thing about ATI is that it means different things to different people, families usually pick and choose what "convictions" they want to follow. Not all members don't eat pork, for example. Some wear jeans and shorts.. There are no straightforward rules, only "good ideas", principles, guidelines, etc. Except when it comes to conferences and HQ, then "convictions" become more rule-like (for example, you have to agree to certain "convictions" or "commitments" before becoming a volunteer or teacher). Conformity is expected at conferences especially with the young people, though you'll see a wide spectrum again in terms of how long the skirts are, whether they wear headcoverings, etc. etc.

Thank you SO MUCH for this!!! 

I love to learn about this stuff. I wasn't raised like people in IBLP/ATI are, so it's all extremely foreign and difficult to grasp at times. This is the first post I've seen which really explained it in a way I can grasp - I never really realized that some things are more optional than other things are. Thinking about it though, the variations between families makes sense that way. Seriously, thank you for that!

[Snarkle]

5 hours ago, Bretta said:

That's more of mainstream evangelicalism IMO. There's such a thing called "tentmaking" ministry, where you work in a normal job and also serve a missionary of sorts (but this is not really an exclusively or primarily fundie thing).

Fundies generally thrive from the fact that they must preserve their children from the evil world. They must protect the innocence and purity of children and never expose them to worldly people, worldly music, worldly movies, worldly values, etc. In some ways it's operating out of fear-based parenting.  Basically it's isolation and indoctrination all rolled into one. Then when they're trained enough, they can send them "out" on approved missions. But the lifestyle (clothing, choices, convictions, education) are supposed to be their testimony.

Bravo, Bretta!  This is one of the best "in-a-nutshell" recaps of ATI/IBLP life I've seen.  And thanks for clarifying the difference between them and more "mainstream" evangelicals.  Interesting how the goalposts move to fit the times, though - 25 years ago the internet was but a blip and not even on the radar of most people, much less fundies.  I would imagine their conferences and traveling to see each other was very important to keep in touch and promote the brand then.  Now with social media they can promote the lifestyle in a different way, to a wider audience, but instead of just "we're apart from the real world," it's also "We have a better life than you, just see!  Babies!  Purity!  Obedient children!  Weddings!"  Ugh.

[HereticHick]

Oh Lawson, you empty-headed pretty boy. Don't go there.

 

[justmy2cents]

It's the same look of horror she had on her face every day that she was forced to live that way.

I hope posts like that make him less attractive to the girls who seem to worship him. 

[what the heck]

13 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Oh Lawson, you empty-headed pretty boy.

 

Of course he would take the family's side, He has never had to deal with a situation like this! I wonder if his feelings would change if someone he knew had to live like this! This isn't living its existing!

[LawsonBatesEgo]

It was nothing short of cruel the way that poor woman was forced to live like that.

Shut up, Lawson.

[Palimpsest]

Thanks @Bretta

I think a look at the history of IBLP and Gothard would be interesting too.

Vastly over-simplified:

Gothard got his start with the Basic Youth Conflicts seminar.  IBLP came later.  Time was when judges were regularly sentencing troubled youth to Gothard indoctrination camps instead of juvie.

He was at his most popular during the 70s probably - before the scandals of the 80s and 90s.  He came out of those scandals comparatively "clean" because the sexual abuse stuff was blamed on his brother, and the physical and emotional abuse of children at the youth training camps was pushed off on bad counselors.  It did leave a bad taste in some people's mouths though, and attendance at his massive week-long conferences went down.

There is also "Character First,"  I don't think this has been mentioned yet.  This has infiltrated the public school systems in many communities - David Waller taught "Character" in Oklahoma City public schools, IIRC.  This is also a big part of the prison ministries. You can tell someone who has gone through Character First by the jargon that infiltrates their speech.  Both the Bates and Duggar younger generations can barely get through a sentence without using some Character jargon.

Whatever Gothard's personal failings (the bloody predator) these are the teachings that have been codified by IBLP and are still promulgated by the present leadership.

The present leadership includes Gil Bates and Chad's father, Dr. Stephen Paine.  Dr Paine works for the prison system undoubtedly doling out Gothardism along with pills.  That is cruel and unusual punishment.  The Paine family, including Chad and Erin, are still deeply involved at IBLP HQ whatever they pretend.

And, yes.  Shut up, Lawson.  You ignorant little dolt.

[THERetroGamerNY]

Going back to what @Brettasaid, I totally agree. I think they are, perhaps, currently trying to quietly distance themselves from Gothard himself, and do some background damage control. The entire core of their established institution is still very much up and running.

You have to remember that fundies are experts at digging themselves out of the deepest of holes, and then when everybody thinks they are dead and gone, they surprise you by suddenly revealing themselves to be quite healthy and alive - and still having a devoted following. They are really good at this predatory behavior.

Look how Jimmy Swaggart bounced back from his scandal. Heck, look how Jim Bakker slithered out of a 40 year prison sentence and got right back into a television ministry! The basic formula seems to be "Get caught; apologize; march right on forward".

Oh, even the infamous Mike Warke from 80s fame is still around, with his own website and ministry. He was a VERY popular Christian stand-up comedian who had books, tapes, and filled entire auditoriums for is standup routines. He was revealed to be a flat-out liar in regards to his claims of being a Satanic high priest and other such, and was quite a scandal.

They present themselves all wholesome, down-to-earth, and normal as a family on TV, but that also serves as free advertising to a very damaging fundamentalist cult.

[19 cats and counting]

2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Oh Lawson, you empty-headed pretty boy. Don't go there.

 

Posts like this make me very angry as I've been dealing with end of life issues within my own family (including someone who's in a nursing home with a shitty quality of life that does not want to live anymore) and I've seen it with loved ones.

Lying on a bed in an institution is not living.  It's being kept alive artificially.

[formergothardite]

I'm actually hoping Lawson doesn't shut up because he is the one person in the family who is revealing their actual beliefs. I'm sure that he isn't posting anything that the rest of the family disagrees with, it is just that they are smart enough to only post rainbows and butterflies 

[nokidsmom]

34 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Posts like this make me very angry as I've been dealing with end of life issues within my own family (including someone who's in a nursing home with a shitty quality of life that does not want to live anymore) and I've seen it with loved ones.

Lying on a bed in an institution is not living.  It's being kept alive artificially.

Not to derail, but @19 cats and counting I am sorry to hear about what's going on within your family.   My mother's time in a nursing home at the end of her life was pretty shitty too.  People like Lawson really have no clue about the realities of these heartbreaking situations, either for the person affected or the family involved.

Though I agree with @formergothardite the more Lawson posts stuff like this, the more people might get a clue.

[19 cats and counting]

@nokidsmom I saw this with my great grandparents, but I was really too young (early teens) to understand things.  Now I've been acting as a de facto caregiver/financial manager for my grandmother and it really hits home.  

The other Bates kids do good things at nursing homes (Erin holds her students' recitals at them, which is a good thing not snark fodder) so it is not like they haven't been exposed to them before.  

Lawson is really becoming the Josh/Jessa of his family.

[VelociRapture]

31 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I'm actually hoping Lawson doesn't shut up because he is the one person in the family who is revealing their actual beliefs. I'm sure that he isn't posting anything that the rest of the family disagrees with, it is just that they are smart enough to only post rainbows and butterflies 

I feel like Lawson is going to be the gift that keeps giving. That makes me far happier than it should. 

[Mecca]

17 hours ago, amster said:

Ok, but if you don't agree with it, why not stay out of the Bates subforum?

Come on now. You know that is not how it works around here. People can disagree. It is how FJ rolls.  

So anyway, about Crown College, I have a family member that attended and graduated from there. Their degree is worthless outside of Crown and its circle. The level of education they received was rather piss poor and is basically more indoctrination trying to be passed off as higher education. So now this family member is producing kids left and right and forced into the missionary field because no one in the real business world wants to hire a grad from an uncredited school with a Bachelors in Bible Studies in Business. Their story is not very different from other graduates. 

When I see the Bates kids attending there, it really means nothing looking at the bigger picture. It just means more indoctrination for them with a limited skill set that forces them into fundamental circles to gain any type of employment. I see it as another way of trying to control the kids by encouraging them to attend a school like Crown. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

26 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Lawson is really becoming the Josh/Jessa of his family.

*makes the popcorn*. 

[just...sare]

32 minutes ago, Mecca said:

(snip) Bachelors in Bible Studies in Business (snip)

Oh my gosh. This horrified me so much that I went to the Clown College website and took a look at their academic catalog and I just...what would be the practical application of this "degree", even assuming it was a real degree and not just a piece of paper advertising your poor education and decision making skills? I've never been in a business meeting where an opportunity presented itself for someone to say "well you know, I have a Bachelors in Bible Studies in Business and I think what this deal needs is more Jesus."

[Mecca]

7 minutes ago, just...sare said:

Oh my gosh. This horrified me so much that I went to the Clown College website and took a look at their academic catalog and I just...what would be the practical application of this "degree", even assuming it was a real degree and not just a piece of paper advertising your poor education and decision making skills? I've never been in a business meeting where an opportunity presented itself for someone to say "well you know, I have a Bachelors in Bible Studies in Business and I think what this deal needs is more Jesus."

I know, right? In most other schools, senior level courses really dig into your course of study. Not Crown. Bible, Jesus, God and more Bible. Anything relating to business? Very little. Everything is wrapped around the concept of starting or running a Christian based business. They use this as another way to evangelize to the masses. 

 

[nokidsmom]

18 minutes ago, Mecca said:

I know, right? In most other schools, senior level courses really dig into your course of study. Not Crown. Bible, Jesus, God and more Bible. Anything relating to business? Very little. Everything is wrapped around the concept of starting or running a Christian based business. They use this as another way to evangelize to the masses. 

 

I just went to their website and their program requirements for the Bachelor of Biblical Studies in Business Applications is a LOT of Bible type studies, completely irrelevant to a business degree IMHO.   Sure there's accounting, economics and statistics but I am amazed how much is skewed toward bible studies.   And I don't see anything like Business Law in there.

How on earth does Philosophy of Christian Music fit into a business degree program?   

[choralcrusader8613]

5 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

How on earth does Philosophy of Christian Music fit into a business degree program?   

General education class? LOL

[nokidsmom]

6 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

General education class? LOL

You might have a point there,  I suppose it might be a general ed class.  From their prospective.

ETA: Out of curiosity, I looked for that class in other degree programs and only saw it in Music and Ministry Studies.   I suppose it might be relevant to church business but it's weird.

All all that "bibleness" I would go nuts at a place like that.  I had two religion classes that were required at my conservative Christian college, the Old Testament Studies was frankly boring but the Philosophy of Religion which touched on Christian existentialism, now that was one I could bite my teeth into.  Anyhoo back to regularly scheduled programming.....

[just...sare]

22 minutes ago, Mecca said:

I know, right? In most other schools, senior level courses really dig into your course of study. Not Crown. Bible, Jesus, God and more Bible. Anything relating to business? Very little. Everything is wrapped around the concept of starting or running a Christian based business. They use this as another way to evangelize to the masses. 

 

I mean, with the disclaimer that I myself went to a (perfectly normal) university and ended up majoring in Religious Studies (Judeo Christian influence on Modern Culture), I just don't see how any of the Crown classes aim to do anything other than have its graduates turn any educational or business situation into another chance to "minister to people". And if one is calling oneself an elementary teacher, because that's one of their programs, I can only imagine that they justify sending these kidults out into the world completely unprepared for real life because they will most likely only get to teach other fundies, or their own eleventy kids. It's kind of sick.

[Mecca]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I just went to their website and their program requirements for the Bachelor of Biblical Studies in Business Applications is a LOT of Bible type studies, some of which seem completely irrelevant to a business type degree IMHO.   Sure there's accounting, economics and statistics but I am amazed how much is skewed toward bible studies.   And I don't see anything like Business Law in there.

How on earth does Philosophy of Christian Music fit into a business degree program?   

I guess for when you open a Christian coffee cafe or bible store you will know what type of Muzak to use? LOL! And my family member just could not understand why they were unable to obtain a job out in the real world.

Have I mentioned lately how grateful I am that I hightailed it out of this mess and actually attended a real unversity? I honest to goodness sometimes have panic attacks thinking how different my life would be if I did not have the guts to peace out to this way of life. It was hard as hell and I lost a lot of people in my life, but I would not have a life if I did not make the decision I did. 

[Ali]

8 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

How on earth does Philosophy of Christian Music fit into a business degree program?   

They can't teach art history because they would be defrauded. They can't teach history of music because some of that music it too worldly. Therefore, they teach the students about Christian music to fulfill this general education requirement.

[VelociRapture]

Our third installment of "The Dinosaur Watches BUB: I May Have Lost My Mind"

- Dear Kelly,

Brandon being gracious to you jerks moving his shit while he was at work is a massive understatement.

- If someone says "encouraged" or "sweet" one more time I am going to toss the tv out the window.

- Michael's wedding turned out far better than any Duggar wedding by the way. I like to think it was the distinct lack of Sierra.

- Callie sobbing at the wedding broke my withered little heart. Fuck you Kelly and Gil! Fuck you both long and hard!

- I hate saying this, but I want to punch Zach a little bit. I think it's cause his face looks like his dad's. I feel a bit bad about that - only a bit though.

-  The female rider had to put her hands on Lawson to teach him a move during the trick riding scene at the ranch. I felt defrauded.

- Dear Gil,

You guys are constantly saying you need to get away and spend time together. And then you do... And then you say it all over again like two seconds later... Seriously. Do you ever actually work?

- I like what I heard during Erin's recording session. Never going to buy her CD - but good for her for being good at something she loves. 

- Dear Kelly,

The littles are so bonded to the big kids because that's who raised them. Instead of feeling pride over that you should feel ashamed.

- I'm assuming when they say, "we had a long talk with Jeb" they actually mean, "we beat our baby into submission." Could be wrong though.

- Pretty sure Jeb wasn't loving that obedience training shit by the way. Nice try though Gil.

- Ocean Roach? Really Kelly? (Says the snobby New Englander who has honestly never met anyone who hasn't heard of Horseshoe Crabs before. )

- Hey Gil... Maybe try actually parenting rather than ordering Judson to thank his brother for pressuring him to take the fucking training wheels off his bike? Just a suggestion.  

- Alyssa was like, "Sorry not sorry that my baby blew chunks on you Carlin."

- Callie catches a fish before any of the guys. Callie wins at life!

- For fucks sake... DO YOU HAVE TO PRAY ABOUT EVERYTHING?! Seriously, I won't be surprised if they film them praying for Gil to have a smooth bowel movement or something.

- I really enjoyed how terrified Kelly was during the police car scenes. Maybe that makes me a horrible person... But this is a woman who turned her eldest daughters into child raising slaves and blanket trained them all. So, yeah... Not sorry. At all. 

(Carlin was kind of hysterical though. And Whitney was the best - girlfriend was LOVING the entire experience!)

- Remind me to never piss Tori off. She was pretty good at shooting.

- I highly enjoyed watching the older Bates men getting bossed around by the Police Academy Teachers. Especially Gil. Fucking owned.

- Lawson did really seem to have fun with the kids at the Hospital. That little boy was the cutest little thing ever. I just hope Lawson sticks to the cute little songs and doesn't launch into all the over the top Because Jesus shit when cameras aren't around.

- Dear Lawson,

I also do two to five minutes of six inches most nights... If you know what I mean. 

I still have a few episodes before tonight's episode. I may have to gouge my eyes out and puncture my ear drums.