Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 5

[nokidsmom]

33 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

I mean, I could see her cooking dinner & look over at him & think, "I don't know this guy at all." Like the New Josh is a total stranger to her, given what she knows now.

This is totally what I am thinking.   She's going to look at him completely differently, though I don't think she realizes that now.  Though to be fair, I think many people in her shoes don't really know until they get there.  But for her, it's going to be particularly difficult with her set of beliefs and likely lack of real therapy to help her process and cope. 

[quiverofdoubt]

2 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

This is totally what I am thinking.   She's going to look at him completely differently, though I don't think she realizes that now.  Though to be fair, I think many people in her shoes don't really know until they get there.  But for her, it's going to be particularly difficult with her set of beliefs and likely lack of real therapy to help her process and cope. 

100% agree here. she's in for a much harder time than she anticipates. A lot of compromise will have to be made, and I can't see josh compromising. at all.  I see anna making all of those compromises, sacrificing her will, her well being and everything else in the name of "being a good wife" and "pleasing god".  She's just done so much of that already. Would Josh submit to her overseeing his internet and phone usage? maybe. maybe for a little while. depending on that reprogramming camp he's at and how much they've managed to beat him down. But he'll be back to old ways soon, possibly as soon as he's out from under his parent's thumb. That's when things really took a turn before- when they moved to dc and he had to start dealing with the real world, freedom, choices and all the rest.

[Bad Wolf]

Right now, Anna has to care for 4 children including a nursing baby. She has help from the J slaves. When Josh comes back, she will have one more person to care for, unless he helps wirh cooking, cleaning and laundry. LOL.  She might have got more rest in the girls' dormitory, depending what her jurisdictions were.

Unless JB is willing to assign a permanent J slave to wherever they're going to live, I think Anna is going to be worn out. Add to that, she has to be available to satisfy her headship's needs. No, don't even think about that.

[Artemesia]

38 minutes ago, OnceUponATime said:

But but they have to make one for the girls with a built in laundry and kitchen and one  for the boys with a rifle range or something like that.  And then a separate one for the M kids, one for absent-Izzy + future sibs and one for Spurgeon+co. Maybe Jana wants her own one too for some private space.
So then we have 6... and if JD wants one shaped like a plane then you have 7 which would account for the amount of wood purchased.

Because the boys and girls would never be allowed to share a treehouse. But as the only place on the property with privacy I think Jama may claim it!

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

100% agree here. she's in for a much harder time than she anticipates. A lot of compromise will have to be made, and I can't see josh compromising. at all.  I see anna making all of those compromises, sacrificing her will, her well being and everything else in the name of "being a good wife" and "pleasing god".  She's just done so much of that already. Would Josh submit to her overseeing his internet and phone usage? maybe. maybe for a little while. depending on that reprogramming camp he's at and how much they've managed to beat him down. But he'll be back to old ways soon, possibly as soon as he's out from under his parent's thumb. That's when things really took a turn before- when they moved to dc and he had to start dealing with the real world, freedom, choices and all the rest.

To the bolded: this is very key.  Joshley has had a taste of freedom, being able to make choices, albeit unwise ones, without anyone looking over him, no accountability partners, not even to his wife.  I have serious doubts that he's going to last long under his father's thumb which he will no doubt be once he's released from his "rehab".  I suspect JB is not going to take chances on his former golden child messing up again, he's probably doubtful that even he has the full truth of Joshley's escapades, so he's going to watch him like a hawk for some time, maybe forever.    Joshley may come out of RU or wherever he's been holed up a supposedly changed man, but having had his taste of freedom especially as he did while in DC, he's going to chafe under his father's control pretty fast.  The genie is out of that particular bottle.  

My prediction is that Joshley will eventually leave Anna, not the other way around.  Most likely by messing up again only next time he might just bolt when caught rather than go through Jesus Jail and face down the wrath of his dad (again). 

[Chickenbutt]

Not only will JB be watching Josh like a hawk, so will the world, tabloids etc.

[Catey]

35 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

he might just bolt when caught

Why does this bring to mind pictures of the slow speed Bronco chase, except this time it will be Josh driving with one hand while swiping through pictures on Tinder with his other.

Or another hunt like Warren Jeffs, ending somewhere in Vegas with a stash of cash and a blonde.

[nokidsmom]

16 minutes ago, Catey said:

Why does this bring to mind pictures of the slow speed Bronco chase, except this time it will be Josh driving with one hand while swiping through pictures on Tinder with his other.

Or another hunt like Warren Jeffs, ending somewhere in Vegas with a stash of cash and a blonde.

Now you've done it....lol.

I totally have visions of Josh speeding away in their Hummer or RV or whatever big honkin' vehicle he and Anna have at the time with JB in hot pursuit.  And maybe filmed by TLC..."Joshley's Great Escape".

[MoonFace]

On 1/23/2016 at 10:01 PM, Dandruff said:

If I was Anna, I'd want to know how much information her father had before he OK'ed the courtship.  AFAIC, he either threw her to the wolves or he was deceived by JB/Josh.  Not good for Anna either way.  Wonder if she asked him about it.

I have a strong feeling that even if she did want to know the information her dad had before threw gave his daughter away that there is no way she'd get an answer.    I bet it would never occur to her to question a headship.  About anything.   

[Bad Wolf]

When Josh went to DC, he was seen wearing shorts, along with the boys. Anna and Mack, of course, were still in dresses. I remember JB saying that they didn't wear shorts, because Jebus, and they ran a race in a movie in jeans.

A small break away from daddy's teaching, but lighting didn't strike. Although, the AM account started when he was still in AR, so scratch that idea. I don't know why he strayed so far from his teaching. I wonder if he does. Doubt that he'd be able to explore that at RU.

[Artemesia]

His whole life it was ingrained in him that he could not be trusted. All of the accountability partners, chaperons, Nikes, side hugs, etc were just his parents way of letting him know that he could not be trusted and he had no self control. Isn't there a Bible quote something like "lead up a child the way you want him to go and he won't depart from it?" They raised an untrustworthy son with no self control.

[Bad Wolf]

I think it's train up a child which the Pearls used to justify their how to abuse achild book.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

4 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

This is totally what I am thinking.   She's going to look at him completely differently, though I don't think she realizes that now.  Though to be fair, I think many people in her shoes don't really know until they get there.  But for her, it's going to be particularly difficult with her set of beliefs and likely lack of real therapy to help her process and cope. 

Who needs therapy when you have Jesus and shame?

11 minutes ago, Artemesia said:

His whole life it was ingrained in him that he could not be trusted. All of the accountability partners, chaperons, Nikes, side hugs, etc were just his parents way of letting him know that he could not be trusted and he had no self control. Isn't there a Bible quote something like "lead up a child the way you want him to go and he won't depart from it?" They raised an untrustworthy son with no self control.

To be fair, we don't know how much of that started before his attacks and how much was a result of them. I think Michelle and JB may have been more lenient in the rules when the first group of girls was growing up and they jumped down the rabbit hole after Josh wouldn't stop harming his sisters. According to them, that's when they first learned about "safe guards."

That said, I don't think the problem is that they teach their kids that they are untrustworthy. I think the problem is that they don't teach accountability. It's always someone else's fault. And if it's not, it's the devil's fault. 

[JesusCampSongs]

12 hours ago, isarhenne said:

And can someone explain to me why the statute of limitations can run out on child molestation (in repeated cases)?

 

Laws can vary a lot from state to state. Having never lived in Arkansas and not being an attorney, I can't speak to whether or not how this case was handled is typical. 

What I can say, as a therapist who specializes in trauma and encounters similar situations frequently, is that underage offenders are almost always treated differently than adult offenders. Even if the molestation had been reported as soon as it happened, at 13-15ish, Josh was young enough (and also white enough), to where it's unlikely that he would have been tried as an adult anywhere. He probably would have been referred to therapy (along with those he molested), and that would have been that.

In my experience, CPS as well as the legal system are extraordinarily unwilling to intervene in cases of child-on-child sexual abuse within families beyond telling the parents of the offending child to keep him or her away from possible victims (super helpful, right? is my frustration with the system showing?) and telling the parents of the victims to put them in therapy and supervise them better (argh). The only time I've ever seen juvenile sexual predators prosecuted is when they offended people who they weren't related to or were unusually violent about it. Even then, it's often an uphill battle to get them the help that they need or remove them for safety reasons. 

So, the fact that he was outside the SOL and was a minor when the molestations occurred is probably why law enforcement's hands were tied on doing anything about it it. 

[DuggarWatch]

8 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

 

Laws can vary a lot from state to state. Having never lived in Arkansas and not being an attorney, I can't speak to whether or not how this case was handled is typical. 

What I can say, as a therapist who specializes in trauma and encounters similar situations frequently, is that underage offenders are almost always treated differently than adult offenders. Even if the molestation had been reported as soon as it happened, at 13-15ish, Josh was young enough (and also white enough), to where it's unlikely that he would have been tried as an adult anywhere. He probably would have been referred to therapy (along with those he molested), and that would have been that.

In my experience, CPS as well as the legal system are extraordinarily unwilling to intervene in cases of child-on-child sexual abuse within families beyond telling the parents of the offending child to keep him or her away from possible victims (super helpful, right? is my frustration with the system showing?) and telling the parents of the victims to put them in therapy and supervise them better (argh). The only time I've ever seen juvenile sexual predators prosecuted is when they offended people who they weren't related to or were unusually violent about it. Even then, it's often an uphill battle to get them the help that they need or remove them for safety reasons. 

So, the fact that he was outside the SOL and was a minor when the molestations occurred is probably why law enforcement's hands were tied on doing anything about it it. 

Under Arkansas law, Josh would have been tried as an adult for molesting his sisters and the non-family member, if he had been caught before the statute of limitations expired.

http://acasa.us/pdfs/Sexual-assault-laws.pdf

The law is very specific about the age of the abuser and the age of the victims.  It also covers sibling abuse.

[picklepizzas]

48 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

When Josh went to DC, he was seen wearing shorts, along with the boys. Anna and Mack, of course, were still in dresses. I remember JB saying that they didn't wear shorts, because Jebus, and they ran a race in a movie in jeans.

A small break away from daddy's teaching, but lighting didn't strike. Although, the AM account started when he was still in AR, so scratch that idea. I don't know why he strayed so far from his teaching. I wonder if he does. Doubt that he'd be able to explore that at RU.

did we ever have a confirmed timeline on that? i know it was listed with the  AR address, but maybe he didn't want to give his real address and used the old one instead. maybe with a credit card that he never updated the address on, just in case 

[DuggarWatch]

2 minutes ago, picklepizzas said:

did we ever have a confirmed timeline on that? i know it was listed with the  AR address, but maybe he didn't want to give his real address and used the old one instead. maybe with a credit card that he never updated the address on, just in case 

He had two accounts with Ashley Madison.  One showed the Arkansas address and the other said he was in the D.C. area.

[FloraKitty35]

dlisted.com has an article about a statement that Anna released.  Michael K. didn't write the post Allison did, but she is pretty snarky too (especially about her fellow Canadian, Justin Bieber.

http://dlisted.com/2016/01/24/anna-duggar-sort-of-talked-about-visiting-josh-duggar-in-sex-rehab/

[Fun-Dee]

11 hours ago, DuggarWatch said:

Who is going to buy a used car from a guy who has a reputation of lying and cheating?

Oh, you know someone will.  Because he's sooooo  sorry and rehabilitated.  That and he's semi-famous.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

28 minutes ago, Fun-Dee said:

Oh, you know someone will.  Because he's sooooo  sorry and rehabilitated.  That and he's semi-famous.

Well, and most people don't give a rats ass about the Duggars, so I doubt they'd even know who he is. 

[SassyPants]

6 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

When Josh went to DC, he was seen wearing shorts, along with the boys. Anna and Mack, of course, were still in dresses. I remember JB saying that they didn't wear shorts, because Jebus, and they ran a race in a movie in jeans.

A small break away from daddy's teaching, but lighting didn't strike. Although, the AM account started when he was still in AR, so scratch that idea. I don't know why he strayed so far from his teaching. I wonder if he does. Doubt that he'd be able to explore that at RU.

Because his "teachings" are incompatible with life on planet Earth.

Education, proper nutrition, friends, a real church community, the ability to live your own life...real choices, real life skills prep, being treated as an individual adult and not as a member of a family and counting unit.

The Duggar parents failed all of those kids. None of them are prepared for life in our world.

Look at Jill- or Jessa and Ben. They are playing house on daddy's dime; creating another generation of idiots.

[Cleopatra7]

6 hours ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Who needs therapy when you have Jesus and shame?

To be fair, we don't know how much of that started before his attacks and how much was a result of them. I think Michelle and JB may have been more lenient in the rules when the first group of girls was growing up and they jumped down the rabbit hole after Josh wouldn't stop harming his sisters. According to them, that's when they first learned about "safe guards."

That said, I don't think the problem is that they teach their kids that they are untrustworthy. I think the problem is that they don't teach accountability. It's always someone else's fault. And if it's not, it's the devil's fault. 

But they were home churching, doing ATI, wearing frumpers, and the whole nine yards when the molestations happened. Incredibly, this was also the period when JB was running for public office, so there are quite a few photos and news articles showcasing this supposedly "godly" family. I'm not convinced there were ever any "safeguards" in place, since there are plenty of pictures of the little girls sitting on "big boys'" laps, including Josh. I think JB and Michelle just thought that Josh being sent to the kiddie version of Jesus Rehab and confessing his sins in front of the home church was enough of a "safeguard." I do agree that the Duggars don't teach personal responsibility, since someone else -- LGBT people, liberals, the media, Satan, porn -- always seems to be blamed when they do something wrong, rather than them realizing that they've made some horrible choices of their own making.

[Chickenbutt]

Your post brings a thought to mind.....if Josh confessed "his sins" in front of the church elders or whoever it was, were none of them mandatory reporters? Surely someone in the bunch was. I am not at all religious so maybe his confession was protected info, kind of like Catholic confession? Am I way outta line here?

[Mothership]

6 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Your post brings a thought to mind.....if Josh confessed "his sins" in front of the church elders or whoever it was, were none of them mandatory reporters? Surely someone in the bunch was. I am not at all religious so maybe his confession was protected info, kind of like Catholic confession? Am I way outta line here?

Their cop-buddy who had a strong conversation with Josh was a mandatory reporter and failed to report.   Usual mandatory reporters are clergy, teachers (although, I'm not sure if they're mandated outside the scope of their students/classroom) and court officials (attorneys, police officers).  The seal of confession is only valid when it is one on one (parishioner and clergy).

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

11 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Your post brings a thought to mind.....if Josh confessed "his sins" in front of the church elders or whoever it was, were none of them mandatory reporters? Surely someone in the bunch was. I am not at all religious so maybe his confession was protected info, kind of like Catholic confession? Am I way outta line here?

page 29 has the mandated reporters for Arkansas. But short answer is no. http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Mandatory%20Reporting%20of%20Child%20Abuse%20and%20Neglect-nov2012.pdf

sorry I think I need to clarify. The earlier discussions on this topic pointed out that their church elders are not clergy people. They're just other parents. And it's likely that the "elder" in question was either Jim Holt or another family friend. 

A clergy member is someone who is ordained in all religious matters. It's evident by the fact that none of the Duggars or Bates had a home wedding officiated by anyone in their home churches that no one in their home churches are ordained. In fact the home church movement doesn't have ordained people within their individual groups. They are part of a larger church for activities that need to be officiated, the purpose of the home church is to "create a close knit community of worship."