Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[DaisyD]

I'll be super pissed if they are aloud any kind of resupply. At this point, no one is pointing guns at them. If they want to come out, they can without being killed. I have no sympathy for the adults, and I wouldn't condone sending food for the kids because I don't think they'd get it (aside from maybe a tiny share). If the kids are hungry, send them out. The feds will feed them well. I'm tired of these morons now.

[AmazonGrace]

13 hours ago, Howl said:

No, that was a much younger guy.  LaVoy is a 50-ish guy with 11 kids. 

This Website has bios for most of the occupiers, including Mel Bundy, who hasn't been mentioned by name prior to this (that I know of ):

oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_militant_profiles_list.html

Maybe they're taking turns under the tarp:

Quote

Lavoy Finicum, 55, retreats under his tarp while protesting at a refuge in Oregon

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/oregon-militia-gunman-tries-to-hide-under-a-tarp-on-live-tv-during-anti-government-protest-a6798451.html

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I finally had the time (and available data) to watch the Seth Meyers clip and read some of the erotic Tweets. So funny! 

 

12 hours ago, Mrsaztx said:

Ammon Bundy's mother is now asking for donations of supplies to be sent, coffee (bad Mormons!), food, and blankets. I'm going to be terribly disappointed in whatever agency is handling this if they allow people to take more supplies to these jabronies. You aren't a very good militia of you didn't consider Utah might be cold in January and pack accordingly 

You left out the most important part of the resupply list. French Vanilla creamer!

http://www.opb.org/news/article/bundy-militia-calls-for-supplies/

[sparkles]

I'm laughing so hard I can barely breathe.

https://youtu.be/9d8-rM9up7E

[browncoatslytherin]

I finally had the time (and available data) to watch the Seth Meyers clip and read some of the erotic Tweets. So funny! 

 

12 hours ago, Mrsaztx said: Ammon Bundy's mother is now asking for donations of supplies to be sent, coffee (bad Mormons!), food, and blankets. I'm going to be terribly disappointed in whatever agency is handling this if they allow people to take more supplies to these jabronies. You aren't a very good militia of you didn't consider Utah might be cold in January and pack accordingly 

You left out the most important part of the resupply list. French Vanilla creamer!

http://www.opb.org/news/article/bundy-militia-calls-for-supplies/

i thought military guys just drank their coffee black?

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@sparkles, that was terrific!

 

@browncoatslytherin, maybe it's for the the wimminfolk or the horses?

[browncoatslytherin]

@sparkles, that was terrific!

 

@browncoatslytherin, maybe it's for the the wimminfolk or the horses?

ah yes. wimmin aren't as rugged as manly men.

[DaisyD]

Thus we have the difference between military and militia. 

 

I drink my coffee black...

[Howl]

@AmazonGrace I stand corrected!  When I watched Seth Meyers, I thought it was the guy with a shaved head under the tarp!  Guess that pure desert air does wonders for LaVoy's complexion.

When you'd rather die than go to prison, go home to your wife and kids and live your damn life like, um, a free man.  You may believe in some kind of patriot paradise, but you're the father of 11 children, everyone of whom would rather you were home with them than dead. 

It's not gonna turn out like the Cliven Bundy scene where nobody was charged with anything. This time, you're occupying Federal lands and you'll be driven to bankruptcy trying to pay lawyers fees.  

Low of 17 degrees tonight in Burns, OR.  

[Howl]

Good article from High Country News on the main players, and who is hanging out in Burns trying to cool things down.  In addition, it seems there are a lot of militia types who disagree with the occupation as a strategy.  

hcn.org/articles/whos-who-at-the-oregon-standoff-malhuer-bundy

Ammon Bundy has confirmed that they are going through paper files stored at the refuge and through filing cabinets, looking for documents to support their allegations that the BLM has been unfair to the local ranchers.  They've also "borrowed" a US Fish & Wildlife backhoe at the refuge to tear down a fence marking the boundary between the refuge and private property.  

So there's two more federal charges for ya, Ammon.  Actually, make that three, because misusing government property and destroying government property would be two different things. 

A few brave souls have shown up to picket against the occupiers.  My favorite is "Get the flock off my refuge". 

At a community meeting in Burns about the refuge occupation, Pete Santilli was thrown out for heckling and interrupting speakers.  Apparently, Pete's an NRA shill, right-wing radio "personality" and generally vicious person. 

Crooks and Liars web site has posted some live tweets from last night's meeting (1/11/2016), along with pics of Santilli being escorted out:

crooksandliars.com/2016/01/journalist-pete-santilli-tossed-out-town

Apparently, the occupiers have turned away several convoys of supporters, because even they realize that more heavily armed wingnuts with tons of ammo isn't a good idea right now. 

[Mama Mia]

On the very small sample of my social media I've seen three different reactions to this :

1) Meems posted by people who think these guys are getting far harsher media treatment than the anti- police violence demonstrators. 

2) Meems posted by people who think these guys are being portrayed much more favorably than the anti- police violence demonstrators.

And - 

3) 

 A few people who were most vocally in support of the various anti- police brutality demonstrations last year - are also at least somewhat supportive of this group.  Because the far left and far right often come around to a circle. The ones who are supportive ( other than the tea party types ) seem to think the government has gone too far in many, many areas- in particular the drug wars, war for greed in general, police brutality, eminent domain land grabs, holding people without charges and so on.

 

The people in my Facebook feed tend to have atypical views though. For example, even the tea-party, mostly  hard right types are generally pro-marriage equality and pro- choice. 

On the other hand, many of the generally leftist  friends on my feed are fairly vocally anti-abortion. 

Regardless, even if someone was in favor of some sort of anti -government reform/ revolution/ anarchy -- this seems, to me, like a horribly stupid place to make your stand.  There is absolutely no good, compelling, heart wrenching, relatable cause here. Their demands are wildly unrealistic . The people involved in the standoff aren't even directly related to the area! How do they expect to get public buy-in from that? Stupid. I think the federal government is being smart to let them just wear themselves out. The last think they need to do is make martyrs out of them.

[Howl]

Quote

@Mama Mia, this is such a good point:  There is absolutely no good, compelling, heart wrenching, relatable cause here. Their demands are wildly unrealistic . The people involved in the standoff aren't even directly related to the area! How do they expect to get public buy-in from that?

Even other patriot/militia types agree that this is not the right hill to die on, and I can't for the life of me figure out why these guys think it is.  Maybe they think by going through the paper documents at the refuge, they'll find some smoking gun to prove abuse of the Hammonds -- but that's extremely unlikely.  First, these are legal issues and paperwork related to the Hammonds will be held in the Federal prosecutor's office. Second, there's no smoking gun.  

In the meantime, they are racking up Federal penalties right and left. 

[DaisyD]

Someone sent them a bag of dicks. 

http://thedailybanter.com/2016/01/poor-poor-patriots/

[notfundy]

This has become hilarious, really.,,, if they're wern't breaking the law it would be even more funny.

And yes - they're getting resupplied.  Well, they went to the post office to pick up their supplies .... I don't think they were all delivered to the door.   

Colbert on the Late Show was hilarious, especially when he mentioned that it was Ammon Bundy's MOTHER who posted the wish list on their behalf.  His MOMMY.   

So funny.   Just so funny.   

[pamplemousse]

1 hour ago, daisyd681 said:

Someone sent them a bag of dicks. 

http://thedailybanter.com/2016/01/poor-poor-patriots/

Penis-shaped candies, eh? Well, I hear they did want snacks. These were perfect...dicks for dicks! 

[Chowder Head]

5 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Penis-shaped candies, eh? Well, I hear they did want snacks. These were perfect...dicks for dicks! 

here I was coming to ask which one of us sent them edible dicks? buzzfeed.com/davidmack/bag-of-dicks#.vcE05qxkE

[doggie]

Someone sent them a bag of dicks. 

http://thedailybanter.com/2016/01/poor-poor-patriots/

I think fleshlights would work better but you never know.

[Howl]

Category: how to make friends and influence people 

The occupiers tore out a  fence on the border between the refuge and an adjacent ranch, claiming it was at the behest of the rancher, so his cattle could graze on the refuge.  Bundy claims a ranch "representative" gave them permission. The ranch owner is furious, said he gave no one permission and immediately got a crew out to re-erect the fence.    The "representative" may have been one of the rancher's sons, but who knows.  The rancher is emphatic that the land is in his name only, no one had permission to take out the fence, but he is ultimately responsible as the landowner, hence the fence was rebuilt ASAP.  

oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/rancher_i_didnt_know_anything.html#incart_story_package

Sugar Pine Mine incident in Oregon rallied militia types (Oath Keepers) and was another precursor to the Malheur occupation: 

oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/months_before_malheur_occupati.html

Meanwhile, the BLM has shut down water and electricity at a fire station (used during the summer fire season) on the other side of the refuge to preclude it being used by the occupiers. 

This made me think about why no one has shut off electricity or water at the refuge.  It's winter, it's very, very cold -- some nights are hovering just above zero degrees.  No electricity, pipes freeze.  Pipes burst, there flooding and major destruction of these lovely historic buildings constructed by the CCC in the 1930s and a huge expensive mess to clean up.

Ammon Bundy claims he will hold a meeting on Friday to explain when they'll leave and under what conditions.  Who knows.  

Another article claims that the occupation was not spontaneous -- but was planned out over several months.  Fascinating details in this article, if you find such things interesting and it's the back story on how the occupation was planned.   

lasvegassun.com/news/2016/jan/13/ammon-bundy-montana-militia-leader-had-planned-a-l/

[SilverBeach]

I work for the Feds. If armed folks stormed my workplace, and began harassing me privately, I would expect the full force of the government to protect me and my coworkers. Since when did it become OK to go trampling through Federal offices, FFS! Nobody wants another Waco, but if that nut Koresh hadn't started it nothing would have happened. Bad precedent being set here.

[Cleopatra7]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

I work for the Feds. If armed folks stormed my workplace, and began harassing me privately, I would expect the full force of the government to protect me and my coworkers. Since when did it become OK to go trampling through Federal offices, FFS! Nobody wants another Waco, but if that nut Koresh hadn't started it nothing would have happened. Bad precedent being set here.

I'm hardly a Waco truth or apologist, but the feds could have easily apprehended David Koresh with no fuss or muss when he went jogging in Waco or doing other errands. When the feds decided to make an example of Korea by going into the compound with tanks and guns, it simply fed into the Branch Davidians' apocalyptic outlook, and made a peaceful solution impossible. I also believe that the Branch Davidians themselves set the fatal fire, a move that was also in keeping with their theology, but if Korea had been quietly captured on day one, the siege probably would not have been necessary in the first place

 

[DaisyD]

I want to know why the ones who went to the post office weren't arrested when they left. 

[church_of_dog]

33 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

I want to know why the ones who went to the post office weren't arrested when they left. 

Yes, exactly.  And why there isn't a roadblock somewhere just outside the refuge so no supplies can be delivered to them.

[SilverBeach]

There needed to be grounds for apprehending Koresh alone. In a cult he likely would have been in control whether or not he was in custody. Likely would have been the same outcome.

[debrand]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2016/1/8/oregon-standoff-what-if-the-armed-occupiers-were-black-or-muslim.html

 

Has anyone posted this video yet?  Dena Takruri of Al Jazeera posted this video and the young woman has the proverbial balls to walk up to the group and tell Levoy she is a Muslim. Levoy, to his credit, is polite but his answer left me confused. She wanted to know if the members of the 'militia' thought that they were being treated with kid's gloves because of their race. (She worded it much better than I just did) Levoy, weirdly enough, says that they would welcome all groups including Muslims? I must have misunderstood him. He also says that Muslims and Native Americans should ask for their rights as kindly and gently as possible. Of the three people, she interviewed he seemed the least likely to kill someone but maybe that soft voice has me fooled.

 

Jerry, another guy she interviews, is outraged she used the word white to describe him and claims that is racist. She is profiling him. Um...he is white. How is it racist to say he is white? He gets really angry and doesn't answer her question. 

From what I have read in the press, the last guy is scary. Ritzheimer is not someone that I would want on my side or that I would let talk to the press.  At the very end, Takruri answers Ritzheimer's dodging of the Native American's previous ownership of the land with the word, "History." That made me laugh.

 

 

[Howl]

6 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I also believe that the Branch Davidians themselves set the fatal fire, a move that was also in keeping with their theology...

A family member was at the Branch Davidian compound (in an official capacity) a few days before the cataclysmic end and worked at a desk adjacent to a person who was at the compound (again in an official capacity) when the fire broke out.  They were monitoring the compound with infrared equipment and could clearly see that the Branch Davidians torched themselves.  

David Koresh was an evil prick who took young girls from the compound to a motel and raped them. Like the FLDS, David Koresh created his own problems and got on the law enforcement radar by sexually abusing underage girls. 

As mentioned upthread, Al Jazeera America is doing some excellent journalism, and covering some angles that others are not.  I'm looking forward to watching those interviews.