Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[salex]

OK, I"m going to say the things I can't without losing my "in" on Fakebook.

1) I wondered if the one who ended up dead ( LaVoy Finicum) had some kind of suicide by cop plan in his head.  He was the guy under the blue tarp in national news, which in and of itself was odd.  I will have to check out his book.

2) the groups on fakebook I follow on fakebook are gnashing their teeth about how these activists were killed.  2 days ago they were calling them militia.  How quickly the PR spin goes into play.

3) Yes, this is what you are asking for when you choose to wear and act on this t-shirt.  

It plays out a little differently when you are flaunting that attitude toward law enforcement instead of the clerks at panera, doesn't it?

4) And, finally---who is paying for this?  Can all these people afford to be away from their lives for as long as they anticipated being there (some said years!) How many of these militants have jobs, or businesses, or are they on disability / government pensions, etc?  How did Lavoy Finicum (is that his real name?) support a family of 11  and how could he afford to be away from them for most of a month?
 

OK, I"m an unsympathetic bitch about stuff like this.  But what part of armed standoff did they miss.... stealing government vehicles to go off and make PR speeches, especially when you have skype, etc, is just hubris and begging for trouble. 

 

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

6 hours ago, nana sew dear said:

I think the main issue with the Hammonds was that they had been sentenced to, and had served prison time and had been released. Then a federal judge decided that they hadn't served long enough and wanted them back in prison. 

At least one source I read said that the Hammonds were well aware of the possibility that they'd have to return to prison - that it was part of the deal.

I think it's somewhat common for felons who appeal to have gaps in their "service" - it's just a part of the justice process.

I'm not a huge fan of mandatory minimums - but I don't think this was anything other than due process.

[nana sew dear]

That is what stirred up the locals.  I didn't know this was typical.  If they knew they might have to go back it explains their behavior.  What they didn't want was an armed protest.

4 minutes ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

At least one source I read said that the Hammonds were well aware of the possibility that they'd have to return to prison - that it was part of the deal.

I think it's somewhat common for felons who appeal to have gaps in their "service" - it's just a part of the justice process.

I'm not a huge fan of mandatory minimums - but I don't think this was anything other than due process.

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

10 minutes ago, salex said:

How did Lavoy Finicum (is that his real name?) support a family of 11  and how could he afford to be away from them for most of a month?

Finicum said payments for foster care were his main source of income. 
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/robert-lavoy-finicum-dead-rancher-bundy-burns-oregon/

(Almost at the bottom.  This has been reported by other sources.)

[Howl]

Quote

He was reportedly shot Tuesday evening during a shootout when law enforcement officers stopped a group of militants on their way to establish a shadow government in nearby Grant County.

I think the shadow government phrase might refer to the formation of a Committee of Safety, a Sovereign Citizen thing. 

I would imagine that LE in this area is extremely nervous, perhaps more now than in previous weeks.  Soverign Citizens have murdered LE in more than one instance.  

Lots of general information on Sovereign Citizens movement here, from the police perspective:

policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=3494&issue_id=92014

[SpoonfulOSugar]

5 minutes ago, nana sew dear said:

That is what stirred up the locals.  I didn't know this was typical.  If they knew they might have to go back it explains their behavior.  What they didn't want was an armed protest.

 

Here's one resource:

https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/

The point that they made a deal and got off other charges clarifies that they could have faced much longer than 5 years.

[Cleopatra7]

3 hours ago, mamallama said:

I wonder how many of the people commenting have said that young black men shot by police should have just obeyed the law.

Last time I checked, those young black men weren't armed to the teeth, occupying public land, and shutting down the normal functioning of an entire community.

[mamallama]

7 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Last time I checked, those young black men weren't armed to the teeth, occupying public land, and shutting down the normal functioning of an entire community.

That too!  I hope I was clear that the commenters I was refering to were the ones spinning the story that he was on his knees with is hands on his head.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

This is a helpful summation of the Hammond case:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2660399-Statement-USattorney.html

[nana sew dear]

The kids in the area must be traumatized.  Burns is a tiny town but still the center of the human community in that area.  They have the gas stations, grocery stores and hospital.

One of the new sources early this morning implied that Finicum had chosen death by cop.  You should have seen the posts from the crazies! 

[nana sew dear]

Thank you to everyone posting links.  My info is hearsay, but it is hearsay from state employees who have been involved for a month as this mess has evolved. 

[freehannie]

Is anyone watching the live feed videos on youtube by Defendyourbase?  The people left at the refuge seem to be preparing to fight the feds when they come.  They are talking about having a last stand and dying free men.  They shot at a drone around an hour ago.  One guy also said that the feds fired first since they shot Lavoy so now they can fire at the fed.  I'm afraid this is all going to end very badly.

 

[Howl]

Yeah, these people live and breathe conspiracy theories.   Dudes, start shaving with Occam's Razor.

4 hours ago, nana sew dear said:

It's quiet this morning.  It sounds to me like Finicum was a half decent man who was lured in with Bundy propaganda.  Would love to see that family act in prison for a long time.

I think part of him, yes, loving and devoted family man and sincere in his beliefs. Part of him, Mormon zealot.  Part of him, fanatic buying into what most of us consider the myth of government's desire to take our guns, freedoms and liberty and everything else.  Yes, Cliven  Bundy lit the damn fuse, but I suppose the explosives were there. 

Finicum's book,  the post-apocalyptic Only by Blood and Suffering is filled with violence, and guns, and guns, and uh, guns, killing and what happens to people who let the government take away their guns (not good) and people who didn't (they fare much better).  

 

 

2 hours ago, freehannie said:

Is anyone watching the live feed videos on youtube by Defendyourbase?  The people left at the refuge seem to be preparing to fight the feds when they come.  They are talking about having a last stand and dying free men.  They shot at a drone around an hour ago.  One guy also said that the feds fired first since they shot Lavoy so now they can fire at the fed.  I'm afraid this is all going to end very badly.

Live streaming is active, but seems like it's head mounted.  Nothing like listening to someone walking around and snacking, but there's extremely interesting bits of conversation in the background, about standing with God for support and hoping militia reinforcements will be arriving because they've heard the Broken Arrow call, which is code (Viet Nam? military?) for a unit about to be overrun.  Whoever has the camera (phone?) seems clueless about live stream, because he says, "I've never done this sh*t" before."  

[EyeQueue]

And.....*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner, folks!  @Howl called it upthread, that if things went bloody it would more than likely be Finicum.

The first Y'allQuaeda martyr, y'all!

And, yeah. AZ. Scary (and I'm a native). I also once lived in the area of Cottonwood (hometown of one of the other arrested militants). In a commune by a river. Because my parents bought into some craziness about Reagan being the harbinger of a government take-over.

This shit runs deep in AZ.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I listened to the press conference.  Very short, to the point, matter of fact.

I think the idea of getting the leaders away from the site and capturing them is incredibly logical.  Also, I wonder if the delay of three weeks (being allowed to come and go, etc.) lead them to drop their guard.

It's sad that the sheriff says the tension in the community is weighing on everybody.  The threats just make me shake my head in disappointment.

I wish I could find the quote from one of the seditionists who left, who basically called the roadblock a "cheap trick".  (I read it in multiple sources, but didn't find it going back.)  I just want to roll with laughter.  WTF dude, did you think you could just do whatever you please with no consequences?

If anyone can find that quote, please share a link . . . ?

[Howl]

Please get IT out to the Refuge STAT!  David Fry of DefendYourBase desperately needs help with live streaming. 

 

[Loveday]

3 hours ago, EyeQueue said:

And.....*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner, folks!  @Howl called it upthread, that if things went bloody it would more than likely be Finicum.

The first Y'allQuaeda martyr, y'all!

And, yeah. AZ. Scary (and I'm a native). I also once lived in the area of Cottonwood (hometown of one of the other arrested militants). In a commune by a river. Because my parents bought into some craziness about Reagan being the harbinger of a government take-over.

This shit runs deep in AZ.

Yep. NBC News just had a soundbite of his daughter saying 'he's now a martyr.'

[EyeQueue]

3 hours ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

I wish I could find the quote from one of the seditionists who left, who basically called the roadblock a "cheap trick".  (I read it in multiple sources, but didn't find it going back.)  I just want to roll with laughter.  WTF dude, did you think you could just do whatever you please with no consequences?

And that's just it. These chucklefucks thing they can basically do anything they want and get away with it, similar to their demand that the federal land just be magically turned over to the ranchers for free. What a load of twaddle.

[Deist woman]

I believe the "patriots" are using the term "broken arrow" incorrectly.  

Per United States Military Incident Terminology:

Broken Arrow[edit]

Broken Arrow refers to an accidental event that involves nuclear weapons, warheads or components, but which does not create the risk of nuclear war. These include:

Accidental or unexplained nuclear detonation.

Non-nuclear detonation or burning of a nuclear weapon.

Radioactive contamination.

Loss in transit of nuclear asset with or without its carrying vehicle.

Jettisoning of a nuclear weapon or nuclear component.

Public hazard, actual or implied.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

 

Other than weapons mishandling, and the potential for this incident to "go nuclear", it doesn't fit.

 

[Howl]

This is just sad.  There is some live streaming going on that seemed to be inadvertently giving away a lot of information that would be tremendously interesting to the Feds and LE; important information, like, there's no real organization, nobody seems to be in charge or have a master plan.  Hey, anybody want to go up on that ridge? That there's a husband and wife.  That they are trying to organize their guns and ammunition.  That there are only 5 or 6 people evident in this video.  Anyone familiar with the refuge would know exactly where they are digging in.  They are being surveilled by drones.  I really, really, really hope that at least a few of them have a moment of clarity and decide to leave.

If I were the Feds, I'd let these yahoos just sit and stew for, oh, maybe 5 days, see if anybody leaves, see if they turn on each other; they will be sleep deprived & at some point, totally demoralized.  On one of the earlier videos today, a guy is pacing around, and periodically returns to rant and scream directly into the camera, so it seems the term tightly wound would apply.  Everybody else seems calm.   It's obvious they are hoping that legions of patriot militia are coming to save them, so many they blot out the sun....filling the horizon from east to west.  Barring that, they are utterly and completely fu*ked. 

ETA that the law firm representing Ammon Bundy has released his statement: 

Quote

 

“I am asking the federal government to allow the people at the refuge to go home without being prosecuted,” the statement read. “To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here.  Please stand down. Go home and hug your families. This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home.

“Being in the system, we are going to take this opportunity to answer the questions on Art. 1, Section 8, Cause 17 of the United States Constitution regarding rights of statehood and the limits on federal property ownership.  Thank you and god bless America.”

 

Going home with a pat on the back might be a stretch for the eejit screaming into the camera during live streaming, encouraging people to kill police that stood in the way of getting to the refuge.  Re: Ammon Budy -- I would imagine that the reality of LaVoy Finicum's death and the fact that they will be going to prison is starting to hit pretty hard. 

However, it's troubling that they have a belief that they can still control the narrative in the courts to make their own points. Massive face palm. 

[47of74]

11 hours ago, Howl said:

I think the shadow government phrase might refer to the formation of a Committee of Safety, a Sovereign Citizen thing. 

I would imagine that LE in this area is extremely nervous, perhaps more now than in previous weeks.  Soverign Citizens have murdered LE in more than one instance.  

Lots of general information on Sovereign Citizens movement here, from the police perspective:

policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=3494&issue_id=92014

Here's a video the SPLC put out a couple years ago on these whack jobs.

 

 

[Howl]

What a powerful and touching video.    The internet has been a huge amplifier for fringe beliefs and also a way to organize.  Scary. 

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Three disparate thoughts:

1.  Ammon Bundy called for those still on the refuge to stand down.  His wife (in a now deleted FB post) argued that AMMON would never call for that and instead she called for an escalation.  What a couple.

2.  I found the quote:

Quote

 

Brand Thornton, one of Bundy’s supporters, said he left the refuge Monday and wasn’t sure what those remaining would do.

“The entire leadership is gone,” he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. “I wouldn’t blame any of them for leaving.”

Thornton called the arrests “a dirty trick” by law enforcement.

 

That's not how this works.  That's not how ANY of this works.

http://wjtv.com/2016/01/28/fbi-arrests-three-more-militiamen-leaving-wildlife-refuge/

3. Several elected officials from Western states have commented in support of the seditionists.  I hope their constituents do some soul-searching.  (One of them compared them to Moses and Jesus.)

[bashfulpixie]

That whole sovereign citizen movement and reich-wing extremists scare me more than ISIS does as someone living in the US.  Thinking they're above the law and can do whatever they feel like because they're special snowflakes is so insane to me.

That video was so sad. I still don't understand why automatic weapons are legal in the US.  I really don't.

[Howl]

I came across a wiki on the occupation; there don't seem to be any other updates on offer, so I'll go with this: 

Quote

Early on Wednesday morning, occupier Jason Patrick, said that women and children had left the occupation, but added that five to six people met and then decided to continue the occupation. Hours later, federal and state police forces moved into the region, formed a perimeter around the refuge, and blocked access to it by setting up roadblocks. Only ranchers who owned land near the area were allowed to pass. The remaining members debated on what to do next, with some angry about the recent events. Through his lawyer, Ammon Bundy urged those remaining at the refuge to stand down and go home. Two hours later, a convoy of vehicles was seen leaving the refuge.

Eight people left the refuge and were met by the FBI and OSP at the perimeter. Three militants, including Patrick, surrendered and were arrested, while five other individuals were allowed to leave the refuge by authorities without incident. Reports stated that five or seven militants remained at the refuge.

 

Wasn't Jason Patrick one of the defiant "fight to the death" guys?  Also of interest, of those in the first round of arrests, Ammon Bundy was the only one who already had lawyers at the ready.  With the statement issued, they are obviously doing the right thing for their client.  

Still holding out hope that the remaining clueless people will be left to moulder for at least a few more days, losing sleep and getting more frazzled about what's going to happen next and then decide to leave.  

The fat guy yelling at the camera has anger issues; don't know what's going to happen there.  

Oath Keepers web site has an order from PPN (Pacific Patriot Network)  to anyone thinking about heading out there to Stand By!  in no uncertain terms.  

Quote

 

It has come to the attention of PPN that many individuals are responding to this news as a ‘Call to Action’. The Pacific Patriots Network is issuing an immediate “STAND BY” Order to all those who are mobilizing to the peaceful city of Burns, Oregon. We will not pursue any action until all of the facts have been pieced together regarding the traffic stop and the arrest of Ammon Bundy. During this time, cooler heads must prevail. We do not wish to inflame the current situation and will engage in open dialogue until all of the facts have been gathered.

Again, we must reiterate the current standing order. No mobilization of any kind is to take place until every piece of speculation and hearsay have been verified or dismissed. We will maintain the high road and continue to communicate with federal officials until a complete time line has been developed. In light of recent events PPN continues to support a peaceful resolution to the occupation of the refuge. As more information is made available to the PPN it will be released accordingly and via the appropriate channels.

 

ETA: @SpoonfulOSugar, sorry, yes, your link did clarify a lot of the above.  I read it out of order.  

I need to Stand Down and be less interested in this entire episode, but, Malheur Occupation, I just can't quit you!