Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[church_of_dog]

4 hours ago, Howl said:

A family member was at the Branch Davidian compound (in an official capacity) a few days before the cataclysmic end and worked at a desk adjacent to a person who was at the compound (again in an official capacity) when the fire broke out.  They were monitoring the compound with infrared equipment and could clearly see that the Branch Davidians torched themselves.  

David Koresh was an evil prick who took young girls from the compound to a motel and raped them. Like the FLDS, David Koresh created his own problems and got on the law enforcement radar by sexually abusing underage girls. 

As mentioned upthread, Al Jazeera America is doing some excellent journalism, and covering some angles that others are not.  I'm looking forward to watching those interviews. 

 

 

 

I read that Al Jazeera America is shutting down (boo!)

http://money.cnn.com/video/media/2016/01/13/al-jazeera-america-will-soon-shut-down.cnnmoney/index.html

[47of74]

Now these clowns have a 55 gallon drum of lube coming their way;

boingboing.net/2016/01/14/oregons-domestic-terrorists.html

Quote

Ever since they announced that they forgot to bring food to sustain them through the long siege they desperately craved, people have been sending them mail-order dildos in discreet packagings, to their evident frustration.

Those guys need a loosening up, for sure.

Enter Max "Cards Against Humanity" Temkin, who mailed them a 55-gallon drum of personal lube -- one of Amazon's all-time gag items.

 

[Howl]

Not much fun for the UPS driver on that route! 

Haven't seen anything on the meeting that Finicum is supposed to be holding tonight to outline the timeline for thir exit. 

[Howl]

The stupid continues:  One of the occupiers drove one of the refuge's federal Fish & Wildlife trucks into the Safeway in Burns and was arrested.  The truck, of course, was considered stolen.  There were actually two Fish and Wildlife trucks stolen from the refuge in the Safeway parking lot, but only one arrest.  Ken Medenback, the arrestee, has a long history of creating conflicts with BLM and the Forest Service in Oregon and sounds like a sovereign citizen type. 

nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-police-arrest-man-over-federal-vehicles-stolen-refuge-n497636

LaVoy Finicum has been saying that the occupiers would hold a community meeting last night (Friday, Jan 15) to discuss how and when the occupation would end, but a local judge would not allow any county buildings to be used for the meeting, so no meeting.  My sense is that, if the occupation had broad local community support, a private or church venue would have been offered for the meeting. There was also an anti-occupation protest in Burns yesterday with about 100 people, partly organized by a member of the Grand Old Broads for Wilderness. 

LaVoy also thinks the FBI should go home, because they are just making things worse by inflaming the locals. 

These people are living in some type of odd parallel universe, where land redistribution is just fine, wholesome and American, as long as it goes (presumably for free) to white ranchers, loggers and miners, just like them.  

I keep thinking back to John Wesley Powell, the one-armed Civil War veteran, who made the first successful boat descent of the Grand Canyon, and clearly understood the harsh realities of trying to make a living on the marginal, high desert lands of the American West. In his 1878 Report on Lands of the Arid Regions, he advocated small, self-reliant communities that utilized local water resources (mostly snow melt runoff) to irrigate for farming and ranching, but his voice was drowned out by the tsunami of homesteaders headed west - homesteaders who believed in the hype of the cruel hoax that "rain follows the plow".   These were the homesteaders and complicit officials who originally drove out the Paiutes and robbed them of their Malheur reservation lands.  John Wesley Powell's report was issued in 1878, the same year as the Bannock War that ultimately caused the Malheur Reservation to be closed and those Paiutes to be moved to Washington State, and their land opened to homesteaders. 

(A later Bannock War in the 1890s was related to wealthy big game hunters in the Jackson Hole, WY area who didn't want competition from native hunters.) 

Part of the issues faced by current ranchers may be that the population has exceeded the carrying capacity of the land and limited water resources in the West, which was already a problem over 100 years ago.  

Quote

Three months before Powell died in 1902, Congress launched a century of massive dam and canal construction costing billions of dollars, all subsidized by the federal government. That fueled homesteading and corporate mega-farms. Cities snapped up water rights and imported water across hundreds of miles. Small farmers were overwhelmed by urban and corporate interests. And more water was promised than was sometimes available, triggering water wars. 

npr.org/programs/atc/features/2003/aug/water/part1.html 

Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner is still an awesome read if you want to learn more about this aspect of America.

[AmazonGrace]

On 14.1.2016 at 7:03 PM, daisyd681 said:

I want to know why the ones who went to the post office weren't arrested when they left. 

I just find it so adorable that they're trying to overthrow the federal government and get supplies in the USPS  

[AmazonGrace]

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/

 

A militant leader on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge told OPB his involvement in the occupation has resulted in the loss of his four foster children.

Robert “LaVoy” Finicum and his wife Jeanette were foster care parents for troubled boys. Finicum estimates that over the past decade, more than 50 boys came through their ranch near Chino Valley, Arizona. The boys often landed there from mental hospitals, drug rehabs and group homes for emotionally distressed youth.

[Howl]

10 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

I just find it so adorable that they're trying to overthrow the federal government and get supplies in the USPS  

THIS!  I wish there was an even better exploding happy  emoticon that says, I just upvoted you eleventy!  

[Howl]

Detailed WIKI on the history and background of the Hammonds conflict with the refuge going back to the 1980s and details about the fires/wildfires/arson, lawsuits, fences, colorful language, bad blood and so forth.  

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

[onlyme]

http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/18/new-campaign-turns-malheur-occupation-into-an-occupy-a-thon-for-burns-paiute-tribe-gun-control/

heh heh heh.....

[Howl]

On 1/18/2016 at 3:26 PM, onlyme said:

http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/18/new-campaign-turns-malheur-occupation-into-an-occupy-a-thon-for-burns-paiute-tribe-gun-control/

heh heh heh.....

There was one line from this article that was very concerning and quickly rose to the level of WTF for me: 

Quote

Jake and Zach Klonoski are sons of Chief U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken, who happens to be the judge who resentenced the Hammonds to prison back in October.

So, the sons of the judge who sent  the Hammonds back to prison start a social media fund-raising project to diss the Malheur occupation, an occupation which is directly related to the Hammond's second imprisonment.  I love the brothers' initiative and the essence of their project, but to say this could inflame an already volatile situation is an understatement.  These people already believe that the current Federal government has no legitimacy; this will only convince the occupiers and all Sagebrush Rebellion and militia types who are carefully following this situation that there really is no justice.   If I were the Ann Aiken, I'd ask the sons to chill, because on some level, it's just a Bad Idea, not to mention deepening the perceived urban/rural, i.e., hipster/cowboy divide. 

These Oath Keepers, Sovereign Citizens, militia fanatics, Mormon zealots on a mission from God all HATE the Federal government.  They are all somewhere on the ammosexual continuum &  armed to the teeth.  At least some of them are fragile/marginal/unstable from a mental health standpoint, who are ready to Sacrifice Their Lives for this cause.  It would not take a lot for one of these guys  to decide to assassinate a sitting Federal judge, polish up their sniper rifle and go for it. 

I'm sensitized to this issues since there was a a recent murder attempt (November) on a well liked and respected judge in my home town that put her in the hospital for over a month; she was lucky to survive.  

The Malheur occupation is basically the love child of Mormon zealotry and the Sagebrush Rebellion.  If any of y'all want to know more about the history and origins of the Sagebrush Rebellion right on up to Malheur, High Country News has a full tab related to this movement:  hcn.org/topics/sagebrush-rebellion

 

[Howl]

Well, occupiers are now saying they are not leaving and that the refuge will never be managed by the feds again.  Burns will be holding weekly community meetings until they gone.  At the community meeting this past Tues, the occupiers showed up, but were not allowed to speak, because it's for community residents only. 

If you use this link, opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/burns-meeting-grows-tense-with-bundy-presence/

at the bottom of the page arrows will navigate you to related articles about what's going on there. 

 

ETA to add that 

Quote

 

Ammon Bundy, the leader of a group of armed occupants at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, showed up unexpectedly at the airport in Burns Thursday to talk with a negotiator from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

The negotiator wasn’t on site, and Bundy spoke with him by phone, standing outside the concrete barriers at the base.

 

They promised each other to speak on Friday.

opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/negotiations-begin-bundy-fbi/

[bashfulpixie]

I don't understand why they don't arrest them as soon as they leave the property.  This is just proving that entitled jackasses can do whatever they want and get away with it.

[Howl]

9 hours ago, bashfulpixie said:

I don't understand why they don't arrest them as soon as they leave the property.  This is just proving that entitled jackasses can do whatever they want and get away with it.

I'm totally befuddled by this as well.  I'm sure the FBI and others have some larger strategy in mind, but the occupiers are thinking strategically as well.  Since people can come and go from the Refuge, there are now thought to be about 30 people there.  The Refuge employees are extremely worried because of the likelihood that these a**holes (who have threatened to harm Federal employees) have gone through their personnel files and found names, addresses, phone numbers, SSNs.  

[RosyDaisy]

I have a feeling this isn't going to end well. I pray these protesters do the right thing and stop what they are doing.

[bashfulpixie]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

I'm totally befuddled by this as well.  I'm sure the FBI and others have some larger strategy in mind, but the occupiers are thinking strategically as well.  Since people can come and go from the Refuge, there are now thought to be about 30 people there.  The Refuge employees are extremely worried because of the likelihood that these a**holes (who have threatened to harm Federal employees) have gone through their personnel files and found names, addresses, phone numbers, SSNs.  

I'd be afraid of that too, considering how they seem to consider themselves above the law.  I wouldn't want them having any sort of personal information on me.

[church_of_dog]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

I'm totally befuddled by this as well.  I'm sure the FBI and others have some larger strategy in mind, but the occupiers are thinking strategically as well.  Since people can come and go from the Refuge, there are now thought to be about 30 people there.  The Refuge employees are extremely worried because of the likelihood that these a**holes (who have threatened to harm Federal employees) have gone through their personnel files and found names, addresses, phone numbers, SSNs.  

As frustrating as it is for the rest of us, I do understand why the FBI has chosen to keep their strategy from being public knowledge.  But I too wonder "Why aren't they arresting those who leave?" "Why aren't they blocking supplies from being delivered?"  If they're worried about the health and safety of children inside, perhaps, they could themselves deliver (allow to be delivered) MREs, blankets, etc., and I presume that's a primary reason they are leaving the power on.  But to allow people to come and go, ordering and picking up whatever supplies their supporters provide?  Baffling.

And speaking of leaving the power on, here's an interesting article from the perspective of their local small-scale power company -- who is rather wondering how they might get paid for the usage during this occupation... https://desertbeacon.wordpress.com/2016/01/11/power-for-the-loons-a-small-electric-co-op-considers-what-to-do-with-the-loons-at-the-malheur-wildlife-refuge/

And, as you mention, I'm extremely intrigued by the employees' perspective -- what have they been told, are they on extended admin leave, or working from another office (Malheur NF perhaps?).  I am a former US Forest Service employee and am not, on a national scale, all that far from Malheur.  Far enough that I don't know anyone in Burns, but close enough that my area has all the same rangeland issues, and could be a potential candidate for similar protests.  We've already had letters to the editor supporting them (well, supporting the Hammonds, but using this occupation as the impetus to talk about it, even while claiming "but I don't support their methods".  Yeah right.)  I can imagine the violation of having your office space taken over, and your files gone through -- not sure which feels more violating, the idea that good land projects are being undone or paperwork stolen/destroyed, or the idea of personal effects and identity information being stolen...

[Walking Cat Bed]

I actually know a guy who's an Oathkeeper -- he's a military veteran with serious boundary issues. And just because I haven't *seen* his abundance of firearms, I have no doubt he has several. 

And he's "joked" about doing things like this. (And about other worry-inducing things, like anytime his fb-wide requests for holiday company aren't met, he "jokes" about taking a bottle of whatever -- plus the current firearms --  into the woods.)

Needless to say, he's an arms-length kind of guy. The people with mental health training or who are closer in age will try to talk him down, but I don't engage when he's unsteady. And if he had the money/schedule availability, he'd be in Oregon now. 

[Howl]

So I wandered over to Oath Keepers to see what was what and found this, which I'll post here and watch this evening if I can stand it. The article starts out, "When I was boots on the ground in Oregon.....: 

https://www.oathkeepers.org/exclusive-oath-keepers-interview-with-lavoy-finicum-at-the-refuge-in-harney-or/

I think reading the comments is important as well, or at least two or three of them, to remind ourselves about what these people are actually thinking.  Apparently, they think that the Federal officials and Judge Grasty should be sued for crimes....yada yada.  

 

[bashfulpixie]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

So I wandered over to Oath Keepers to see what was what and found this, which I'll post here and watch this evening if I can stand it. The article starts out, "When I was boots on the ground in Oregon.....: 

https://www.oathkeepers.org/exclusive-oath-keepers-interview-with-lavoy-finicum-at-the-refuge-in-harney-or/

I think reading the comments is important as well, or at least two or three of them, to remind ourselves about what these people are actually thinking.  Apparently, they think that the Federal officials and Judge Grasty should be sued for crimes....yada yada.  

 

I literally cannot roll my eyes hard enough when it comes to these blow hards.  They're just little boys who never grew out of playing army man.  Boots on the ground in Oregon?  Give me a damn break.

[Howl]

Oregon Public Broadcasting is continuing excellent coverage.  Each of their thoughtful articles has substance and solid information.  As noted upthread, you can scroll to the bottom of each article and used the arrows to navigate to other articles on the occupation.  Although the national media is losing interest, there is still a lot going on and these folks are covering it. 

Too Many Captains Could Undermine Armed Occupation covers an outing to cut more fence between the refuge and a private landowner.  Of course, media has been invited.  The reporter, who grew up on a small cattle ranch, discusses how it's obvious that some are at ease with tasks like this, but others are clueless.  Some are soft spoken and sure of themselves; others are more tightly wound.    This acts as a segue to bring in comments from

Quote

 

Pete Simi associate professor of criminology at the University of Nebraska, Omaha, studies radical groups, extremist movements, social movements and violence. He told me my observations about the occupiers’ differences in dress and comportment signal deeper differences in ideology.

“Within the larger universe of right wing extremist movements, there are smaller subcultures,” Simi says....

Sociologist Simi says often we lump armed groups like these into a stereotype. But he says these groups are actually quite diverse.Simi says it will be hard for the group to keep all these diverse players working together without a small faction breaking off to take their own action.

“They’re cooped up; they’re getting on each others’ nerves. You already got people with pretty strong personalities to begin with,” Simi explained. “Everyone thinks they have the right ideas for exactly what the group should be doing. So the potential for a lone person to kind of go off on their own … that’s a really dangerous situation.”

Simi says that can happen even when a radical group is not necessarily planning to be violent.

“What often happens is that one or more individuals, a small clique will say, ‘Look, I’ve heard enough talk. Now it’s time for real action.’” Simi said those turns can end in real violence.

 

Full text here:

opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/npr-too-many-captains-could-undermine-armed-occupation/
 

And if you wonder why we should all be really afraid of these people, this article covers something that sounds just as bad Scientology harassment: How Militants May "Indict" Non-Believers

opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-burns-bundy-militia-grand-jury-occupation/

 

 

 

[RosyDaisy]

I have a feeling the FBI/law enforcement agencies have eyes and ears on the inside and is having them followed when they leave. Monitoring their activities for a period of time sounds like a better plan than confrontation ending in violence. Or maybe I've watched too may crime shows.

[Howl]

The occupiers are settling in for the long term and really think that this is a done deal; I must say they are REALLY starting to piss me off.   Ammon Bundy says he won't meet with the FBI without media present. 

@RosyDaisy, Yes!  It would be especially super ultra awesome if the FBI has managed to get a mole or mole(s) in there.  I hadn't considered that as a possibility.  

I do fear that there may be some tightly wound crazies in there craving "action" who could start shooting.   However, Finicum appears to be a very calm guy and might be able to keep a lid on things. 

For the person wondering about the impact on Federal employees of the Refuge, Oregon Public Broadcasting has it covered: 

opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/refuge-employees-break-their-silence-on-armed-occupation/

 

[onlyme]

It's really sad how this is being allowed to go on. If the Feds have something going on that they aren't sharing, apparently our governor isn't in on it either. 

"Brown said the standoff was costing Oregon about $100,000 per week, mostly in additional law enforcement costs, and that she has asked her finance officials to "scour the budget" so they could subsidize the expense to Harney County."

http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-governor-blasts-federal-response-refuge-standoff-192209597.html;_ylt=AwrXgiOjy6NWImYAhA_QtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBya2cwZmh2BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

I just don't understand it. I don't understand why they get to come to community meetings. I don't understand why they are allowed to make store runs. I just don't understand all this at all. 

[Howl]

3 hours ago, onlyme said:

It's really sad how this is being allowed to go on. If the Feds have something going on that they aren't sharing, apparently our governor isn't in on it either. 

Yes, this is the most puzzling of all.  Why wouldn't they read in the Oregon governor on their plans? It's really kind of a slap in the face to her if they aren't telling her anything.

Here's my other thought.  After the Cliven Bundy Ranch standoff (Nevada), the Racapture Canyon Standoff (Utah) and the Sugar Pine Mine standoff (Oregon), you'd think they would have a protocol in place, because each of these events had emboldened the patriot movement or whatever you want to call it.  But maybe the protocol is playing out, and they consider no loss of life the highest concern, as it should be, I suppose.  But, as my best friend says about many situations with uncertain outcomes,  "More will be revealed!" 

  

[RosyDaisy]

I meant hidden cameras and listening devices. But a mole is likely also.

The reason for national media losing interest is deliberate. These assholes want the attention, and the feds aren't going to give it to them.

I still have a feeeling this going to end badly.