Donald Trump wants bans on Muslims entering US

[Cartmann99]

13 minutes ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

I meant to post this earlier, but went somewhere else instead:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2015/12/11/for-evangelicals-in-iowa-its-anybody-but-trump/

It's an interesting conundrum.  Which is worse:  Trump or *gasp* a Democrat?

I think some would go with Trump, some would go third-party, and some would stay home. There are some Republican voters who would chose the Democratic candidate, but like @formergothardite said, the ones that think of Democrats on the same level as the Anti-Christ never would.

This reminds me of the 2008 election when some of the more conservative voters decided to vote for the Constitution Party instead of the McCain/Palin ticket. They loved Sarah Palin's positions, but couldn't support the Republican ticket because they believe that women aren't supposed to be in positions of power like that.

[tankgirl]

Sometimes, you need a laugh, before you cry. Hoofwanking Bunglecunt, should do it.

[PregnantPornStar]

3 hours ago, BackseatMom said:

Who gets to decide what american values are? Why are any of our values better or more American than anyone else's? I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about law abiding people of all kinds.

I am talking about things like human rights, equality, free enterprise, democracy...

So, yeah, that would be a willingness to abide and assimilate. I, personally, don't believe that one needs to give up all aspects of their own culture to assimilate. I think the fact that we have successfully been a "melting pot" so to speak is great and I do think we should be able to share new traditions and enjoy those of others, however, those need to work within our laws. So, if we are talking about FGM being part of one's culture, THAT aspect cannot be part of their lives any longer if they want to live in America. 

So, Human rights are more important than tolerating certain aspects of different cultures...

I would say the same for women's worth being always equaling that of men (because equality is more important than ideologies that consider a woman to have less worth)

 

[Catey]

Just my personal opinion, no offence meant so please feel free to disregard.

 

This is my overall take on it, I think that there is a thin ugly hateful vein of people that live in a world that they just can not accept. They are your racist, gun toting, homophobic,  bunker building, preppers. Maybe not all at once but they tick of at least one of those boxes. They have RAGED for years under a BLACK President and every single day it eats them alive (Strong Prejudice)

They got onboard somewhat with Palin but she was just not enough (and a woman) but here they have their Messiah, a old white man who is willing to spew all the hate that they need to hear, Every bit of hate he spews slowly builds them back up.

So they have entered into a strange dance with Trump, lets call them the humps. yes that is good. Trump and The Humps.

Well Trump wants to talk and spew and they want to bash all those rotten people who have just won one too many victories. They have GAYS in the Military and getting married (Lost the whole Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve battle) They have a Black man running THEIR country, things are just so far from where they were comfortable that they need him, they need to regain the piece of mind being top of the food chain gave them. When you could call someone a Fag or Negro* and people just laughed.

Well then their great white hope came along. He will deal with the Mexicans, take on those Muslims and bash those feminist bitches back into line. They will then return to their rightful place as the White American dream and the more they hate the more he feeds them.

So in the looooooong run this will fail. Why? Like I said in the beginning it is a thin vein. It is not the majority, hell it is barely even the minority, it is just they are so angry that they are screaming the loudest, all you are seeing is a bunch of homophobic racist toddlers pitching a fit. The only thing that soothes them? Momma Trump.

 

Poor baby Humps.

[Whoosh]

42 minutes ago, PregnantPornStar said:

I am talking about things like human rights, equality, free enterprise, democracy...

So, yeah, that would be a willingness to abide and assimilate. I, personally, don't believe that one needs to give up all aspects of their own culture to assimilate. I think the fact that we have successfully been a "melting pot" so to speak is great and I do think we should be able to share new traditions and enjoy those of others, however, those need to work within our laws. So, if we are talking about FGM being part of one's culture, THAT aspect cannot be part of their lives any longer if they want to live in America. 

So, Human rights are more important than tolerating certain aspects of different cultures...

I would say the same for women's worth being always equaling that of men (because equality is more important than ideologies that consider a woman to have less worth)

 

I would personally agree with everything you wrote here until I get to that last line.  And again, PERSONALLY I agree.  However, you and I both know damn well that much of America (unfortunately) does not agree.  If someone tries to pass a law or regulation saying that people need to view men and women as equal in worth and value (or equal in any way for that matter) - yeah, that isn't want Trump and his ilk are talking about at all.  

In other words - you just basically confirmed the fact that this was a very good question and you don't seem to have an answer that would satisfy many Americans even on a very basic level.

4 hours ago, BackseatMom said:

Who gets to decide what american values are? Why are any of our values better or more American than anyone else's? I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about law abiding people of all kinds.

 

[PregnantPornStar]

On 12/8/2015 at 8:25 PM, nausicaa25 said:

Apparently he said this includes Muslims with U.S. citizenship who are currently out of the country for whatever reason.

Also, statements like this really make me wonder, how do you determine if someone is Muslim? I'm not asking this to be glib. Religion is not like nationality or criminal background where a quantitative measure can be created. Do Sufis count as Muslims? People raised Muslim who are pretty much agnostic but still practice many of the cultural aspects of Islam like Eid and avoiding pork? Do the Baha'i? I really want to know how he would answer that question.

I am not defending Trump or stating that is what he is talking about. I am stating my personal opinion. I think we can all agree that currently women are at least "more equal" to men than they are in other parts of the world, and that we don't want to allow individuals who are willing to "support" even LESS equality.

[Curious]

For those who think Trump is not dangerous, I will leave this here for discussion:

 

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/california-mosque-fire-bombed-by-trump-inspired-domestic-terrorist/

[HarryPotterFan]

57 minutes ago, Curious said:

For those who think Trump is not dangerous, I will leave this here for discussion:

 

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/california-mosque-fire-bombed-by-trump-inspired-domestic-terrorist/

That's terrifying. There was also that 6th grade girl in NY who was attacked by her classmates and the police didn't file charges. These are hate crimes, they can't  be ignored, especially by law enforcement. 

[Catey]

For the sake of argument can we just agree that some people are more easily led then others?

Well dealing with those people if you continually tell them that all Blue Dogs are dangerous  it might just be something that sticks in their mind, maybe upon hearing it a few more times they actively start trying to avoid blue dogs when out in pubic.

Now double down on your hate speech, really ramp it up have them going to bed at night thinking about blue dogs. Lets throw into the mix a blue dog attack splashed all over the news. Well now you have me ramped up, full of fear just waiting for the blue dogs to come crashing into my living room and  devour my family, even my Memaw.

Not long till people start acting out getting those dang blue dogs before they get me!!!

The sad fact is that all blue dogs are different, just as all Muslims are. There were Muslims killed in most of the major terrorist attacks, because they are not MUSLIM attacks they are terrorist attacks. 2 separate things.

As for the oppression of women, I agree that there are one or two aspects of the more fundamentalist version of Islam that I do see as oppressive  to woman, however I have 2 points to make on that. 1stly that   no more covers all of Islam than the Westboro Baptist Church covers all of Christianity. 2ndly there are freedoms that are available to all people in North America, if you are oppressed and you feel that your religion is holding you back/down you are free to leave.

Would that be hard? Yes so is leaving many other religions/

 

[Clementine]

14 hours ago, BackseatMom said:

Who gets to decide what american values are? Why are any of our values better or more American than anyone else's? I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about law abiding people of all kinds.

Communism doesn't seem to be an American value, since you are asked if you are, or have been, a member of a communist party when applying for a visa to travel to the USA, and can be stopped from entering the country if you answer yes.

I was involved in the former communist party when I was a teenager in the 90's so I guess that I can never visit the US. I don't know how big a security threat communists are to the US today. Big I guess, since they are not allowed to enter the country.

EDIT: I just googled it and it seems that the communist question is no longer used for visa applications. It was still there in the late 90's when I had thoughts of studying in the US.

[Whoosh]

To some extent here some of us in this conversation are veering away from anything about Trump and his thoughts on who should be allowed into the country into something very different - the First Amendment Right to freedom of thought, beliefs, and speech.  PPS pointed out that as US citizens, we have certain rights while people seeking to enter the country do not have those rights and are asking for the privilege of being here.  I agree to some extent and yet to some extent I don't.  I also think the reason the person is requesting entry to the country might matter a lot for me personally in terms of how I would view various aspects of the issue (eg refugee or asylum seeker vs others). 

Regardless, in reality the USA is founded on, among other things, the belief that people have the right to their own thoughts, beliefs, and speech.  We also know that those rights can be and are limited.  So, for example, the right to free speech does not extend so far that you are permitted to scream fire in a public building.   Similarly, free speech does not extend to the right to incite imminent violence or riotous behavior.  Nonetheless, with a few exceptions, we by and large honor and respect the right to freedom of thought, beliefs, and speech.  When we do place limits on such things, as with when we limit other rights of our citizens, we do so because various rights of other parties or organizations outweigh or take precedence over the individual's rights.  So, the right of the many to go to the theatre without risk of being trampled outweighs any individual's right to yell fire in a crowded theater.  Anyone who is not a citizen of the USA, including those seeking to enter the USA, has certain human rights that we as a country honor, respect and try to promote (to some extent anyway).  It would be incompatible with the ideological history of our country to change any of that all that much.  

Another way of saying it is that, by and large (with a few exceptions), we do not punish or limit thoughts, beliefs, or speech.  We punish or limit behavior or actions.  This is a long and well established fundamental truth of our nation.  So, even with Clementine's example of Communism, we DO NOT have a blanket policy of prohibiting communist thinkers from our country.  You could even fill diary after diary or give speech after speech with communist ideology and I don't believe that would be grounds to exclude you from entry into the USA.  We DO, however, punish or limit based on behavior.  So, for example, membership in a totalitarian party (including the communist party) is grounds for exclusion.  I do agree that that is an interesting grounds for exclusion, but it is there.  I should say, I am not all that well versed in immigration law, etc.

If we were to venture into the land of thought policing with regards to who is allowed into the country, I really am not sure how that would work out practically speaking.  How would we codify that and who gets to decide how it is codified?  With respect to gender equality, what would the rule be?  You need to value and respect women and their rights at least as much as a Duggar?  Is that what the rule would be?  If so, would anyone really be happy with that rule?  Would we need to constantly change the codified rules to keep up with evolving American thought?  What might be the results of all this in terms of the rights of our citizens under the First Amendment?  Are we OK with what might develop that way?

Anyway - I am rambling and did not mean to so for that I apologize.  Bottom line is that we currently require people to agree to abide by our laws in order to gain access to the country.  That is limiting and controlling based on present and future behavior.  I am not sure I can get behind much of any policy that would attempt to limit and control based on present and future thoughts, beliefs, or speech.  It is an interesting topic, though.

  

[Clementine]

34 minutes ago, Clementine said:

Communism doesn't seem to be an American value, since you are asked if you are, or have been, a member of a communist party when applying for a visa to travel to the USA, and can be stopped from entering the country if you answer yes.

I was involved in the former communist party when I was a teenager in the 90's so I guess that I can never visit the US. I don't know how big a security threat communists (or former communists, I am a raging conservative today) are to the US today. Big I guess, since they are not allowed to enter the country.

EDIT: I just googled it and it seems that the communist question is no longer used for visa applications. It was still there in the late 90's when I had thoughts of studying in the US.

 

[BackseatMom]

It is also true that certian segmants of the US population who live in relatively homogeneous groups and who have the racial/religious/class/pick your identifier privilege of being constantly reaffirmed in their choices and values are more likely to feel like they have a monopoly on american values, and everything else is a deviation. 

Part of Trump's appeal with his racist nonsense is that he reaffirms to these people : hey, you are right. Don't worry about adapting to anyone else at all.

[apple1]

I truly hope that the latest on the Iowa polls is an indication that the Trump flash-in-the-pan (that has lasted far longer than most flashes-in-the-pan) is coming to an end.

SOOOOO sick of seeing and hearing him in the news. Please note that I am NOT saying that I like Ted Cruz.

[Ali]

4 hours ago, apple1 said:

I truly hope that the latest on the Iowa polls is an indication that the Trump flash-in-the-pan (that has lasted far longer than most flashes-in-the-pan) is coming to an end.

SOOOOO sick of seeing and hearing him in the news. Please note that I am NOT saying that I like Ted Cruz.

I was so excited to see Trump get bumped to number two, and then I realized that Cruz is number one. It was kind of bittersweet.

[feministxtian]

I voted for Obama twice...and I have seen the out and out racism just get worse and worse with every passing year. It seems the establishment is pissed that there's a black man and his family in the WHITE house. Remember,  when the US was originally founded, the only ones who could vote were white, land owning, males. Then...that privilege was extended to all white males. Along came the 14th amendment...and then ALL men could vote (and yes, there was a lot of bullshit with that)...then women could vote...what is this country coming to???

Not even 100 years ago, there were signs on businesses that said "No Jews or Irish allowed". They wanted to keep the Jews out, the Irish out, the Italians out...any ethnic group that was not white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant.

Trump is playing to the lowest common denominator...FEAR of the other.

Regarding the "melting pot"...I do believe that any immigrant coming here should learn to read, write and speak English. I say that as a child of immigrants...who spoke flawless English. However, this desire to strip any cultural identity from immigrants is NOT what the US is about...I speak English, crappy Spanish and can cuss up a storm in German. I am proud of my heritage and have passed that on to my children.

Trump and the rest of the GOP is all about appealing to the "old white guys"...they are afraid. I'm waiting for the day when Sylvia Maria Gonzales-Rodriguez gets elected to the White House. (name made up).

 

 

[ALM7]

On 12/8/2015 at 10:22 PM, Imagine20 said:

As a Muslim, every time I hear him say something asinine like this, I wonder when we're going to see the first mass attack on a mosque. I'm expecting any Jummah now to see something horrific...and I'm terrified at what the public reaction will be.

This kind of crazy is dangerous and scary.

I can't imagine the fear this irresponsible hate warmongering must put into the life of Muslims. History has shown us it always ends badly. It's heartbreaking, and we have a responsibility to speak-up.

[47of74]

8 hours ago, apple1 said:

I truly hope that the latest on the Iowa polls is an indication that the Trump flash-in-the-pan (that has lasted far longer than most flashes-in-the-pan) is coming to an end.

SOOOOO sick of seeing and hearing him in the news. Please note that I am NOT saying that I like Ted Cruz.

I can't wait for the day the Iowa caucuses are done and the idiots in the Republican party go away for a while.

[PregnantPornStar]

2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I voted for Obama twice...and I have seen the out and out racism just get worse and worse with every passing year. It seems the establishment is pissed that there's a black man and his family in the WHITE house. Remember,  when the US was originally founded, the only ones who could vote were white, land owning, males. Then...that privilege was extended to all white males. Along came the 14th amendment...and then ALL men could vote (and yes, there was a lot of bullshit with that)...then women could vote...what is this country coming to???

Not even 100 years ago, there were signs on businesses that said "No Jews or Irish allowed". They wanted to keep the Jews out, the Irish out, the Italians out...any ethnic group that was not white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant.

Trump is playing to the lowest common denominator...FEAR of the other.

Regarding the "melting pot"...I do believe that any immigrant coming here should learn to read, write and speak English. I say that as a child of immigrants...who spoke flawless English. However, this desire to strip any cultural identity from immigrants is NOT what the US is about...I speak English, crappy Spanish and can cuss up a storm in German. I am proud of my heritage and have passed that on to my children.

Trump and the rest of the GOP is all about appealing to the "old white guys"...they are afraid. I'm waiting for the day when Sylvia Maria Gonzales-Rodriguez gets elected to the White House. (name made up).

 

 

I don't think completely stripping one's culture is what people are talking about, unless it is an aspect of culture that infringes on rights, liberties, freedoms, etc. 

As far as Obama goes, I voted Obama. I am not a fan of Obama now. It has absolutely nothing to do with race. At all. However, I do think thing would be drastically different had the election turned out differently in 2008. Sarah Palin sealed the deal in that not happening, not that I am saying I would have voted differently. However,  Obama's approval rate has dropped and I don't think that is due to him being a black man. 

I think the way he has handled Islamic Terrorism has been a huge driving factor for many people, even most liberals haven't been impressed. Add the Iran nuclear deal, Guantanamo Bay, poverty is at an all time high, the middle class is struggling, he has allowed Russia to embarrass the US, and so on.  

 

[Jeebusismycopilot]

On 12/12/2015 at 5:45 PM, tankgirl said:

Sometimes, you need a laugh, before you cry. Hoofwanking Bunglecunt, should do it.

"Respected columnist Katie Hopkins" Those are not words that go together.  Katie Hopkins is a vile creature. Actually, she is very much like a female Trump. They would make a terrifying couple. 

 

But I musts say Kudos to the use of hoofwanking bunglecunt! 

 

 

[Walking Cat Bed]

3 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I voted for Obama twice...and I have seen the out and out racism just get worse and worse with every passing year. It seems the establishment is pissed that there's a black man and his family in the WHITE house. Remember,  when the US was originally founded, the only ones who could vote were white, land owning, males. Then...that privilege was extended to all white males. Along came the 14th amendment...and then ALL men could vote (and yes, there was a lot of bullshit with that)...then women could vote...what is this country coming to???

Not even 100 years ago, there were signs on businesses that said "No Jews or Irish allowed". They wanted to keep the Jews out, the Irish out, the Italians out...any ethnic group that was not white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant.

Trump is playing to the lowest common denominator...FEAR of the other.

Regarding the "melting pot"...I do believe that any immigrant coming here should learn to read, write and speak English. I say that as a child of immigrants...who spoke flawless English. However, this desire to strip any cultural identity from immigrants is NOT what the US is about...I speak English, crappy Spanish and can cuss up a storm in German. I am proud of my heritage and have passed that on to my children.

Trump and the rest of the GOP is all about appealing to the "old white guys"...they are afraid. I'm waiting for the day when Sylvia Maria Gonzales-Rodriguez gets elected to the White House. (name made up).

 

I agree with the bolded, to an extent -- but learning a new language takes time and effort. I can read French decently and can pick up on German and Spanish after two years each of the latter (and six intense months of the French). And English is strange and idiomatic and full of wacky rules that don't translate to other European languages very well -- much less any languages with a different alphabet altogether. 

It would help if new immigrants had access to English courses and "how America is different from your home country" classes that were a bit easier to schedule. In my county, there are 19 beginner class sessions (three weekend, two afternoon, 8 morning, 6 evening), which are small, do not provide childcare, and usually have a long waitlist per class. And this is in an urban area. 

[Whoosh]

39 minutes ago, PregnantPornStar said:

<snip> poverty is at an all time high

 

....

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2014/figure4.pdf

[PregnantPornStar]

14 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

....

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2014/figure4.pdf

Okay, that was a bit of a "sweeping statement" but, the poverty rate is not good and there are a LOT of individuals that are below the poverty line. 

I could get into all sorts of things about this...but, I honestly don't have the time or the energy for a forum that I don't have full access to any longer. My point is, people are not happy with Obama for a multitude of reasons. Those who are not critical of Obama are in the minority. Many liberals have issue with Obama. 

The bright side is he did repeal DADT. That needed to happen. So, yay for that. Otherwise, I am out. 

[tankgirl]

36 minutes ago, Jeebusismycopilot said:

"Respected columnist Katie Hopkins" Those are not words that go together.  Katie Hopkins is a vile creature. Actually, she is very much like a female Trump. They would make a terrifying couple. 

 

But I musts say Kudos to the use of hoofwanking bunglecunt! 

 

 

Agreed, and that's how only Trump would think that

[Catey]

I have added to my Bucket List:

-Use "hoofwanking bunglecunt" at least once in an argument.