Donald Trump wants bans on Muslims entering US

[PregnantPornStar]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  I think a lot of the knee jerk fear of Muslims is a combination of ignorance in the true sense of the world and the hasty generalization fallacy because of exposure.

I have seen quite a bit of this fear and generalizing irl from otherwise decent people (although, thankfully, no one is in favor of deportation or mass action) so I've had a couple of conversations lately about why that is.  

Because it's relevant for context my demographic is white suburban middle class Christian identifying. 

Everyone with whom I spoke about the PP shootings was horrified.  The people I know who consider themselves staunchly pro-life were even more vocal about how upset they were because of the message it sends and to them you cannot be pro-life and take the life of another person, no matter how you judge their actions.

(Fwiw the people I know who are staunchly pro-life are a handful and they are equally opposed to the death penalty, and do financially help support charities which serve low income pregnant women and mothers.  Not saying they are saints or anything, just saying that my personal experience isn't with the hypocritical fringe.)

Sorry for my lack of brevity but I felt the background info was important as I will own my opinions and no one has to agree with me, but I don't want to be taken out of context.

Anyway - as horrified as everyone was at the PP shootings no one, not one person, make sweeping statements about all white men, all Christians, or all pro-lifers.  Why?  I've heard it from a small percentage of the people I know about Muslims after every act of violence - so if they are representative of their entire culture/religion why wasn't it the same for the PP shooting?

I didn't hear anyone do it with Columbine or Sandy Hook.  Those discussions were about those specific people, not representative of all white kids.

Why?

I think it has everything to do with lack of a control sample, to get clinical about it.  

When someone from our own group loses their shit and causes so much damage of course we're angry and scared.  But they are such a small percentage of the other people in their demographic group that we know at various levels of intimacy - our control sample - that we KNOW it's an anomaly.  We KNOW it's not everyone.  We know it's not some weird genetic/cultural mutation because our own lives have shown us that murderers aren't representative of "those people" because "those people" are very similar to our people.  

Humans are tribal creatures and that starts with family.  We have an obligation to understand that everyone has biases...everyone...and pretending we don't have an inherently higher comfort level with those who are most like us is dangerous.  We need to know this about ourselves as people and confront our own biases.  If I ignore my own biases and pretend because I'm a fair and egalitarian person that I would never be subconsciously swayed toward thinking more positively toward a job applicant who looked like my daughter, had the same name as my son, reminded me of my dad, came from my neighborhood, etc. then I'm going to discriminate based on superficial shit that doesn't matter.  If I know this is a danger for almost everyone to gravitate to and imbibe with more positive qualities those who are most like us I can put measures in place to make sure I'm not allowing that to influence the decision.  Pretend it isn't there and it just keeps happening.

People like me KNOW all white men, all Christians, all pro-lifers aren't violent lunatics because our very lives have taught us from infancy that the vast majority of them are not.  

I understand that people who grew up with little exposure to the culture in which I was raised and live wouldn't have the same comfort level if all they knew of white christian pro-life men is when they are blowing something up or opening fire.

It's an extreme example - but some people are very sheltered in all cultures.  

My real life world is small - I don't have a large circle of acquaintances and most of the people I know irl are from family, work, or the neighborhood.  I live in a suburb of what is still, in 2015, one of the most racially/ethnically segregated cities in the world.  My online life is far more diverse and it's made me think about things in a way I'm not sure I would without that exposure.  

So for people who don't know Muslims in their life (for this discussion - insert any group of which people are afraid and make kneejerk negative assumptions) they have no control sample.  The Muslims they see are on the news and to them every time they see one it's dangerous.  

No control sample.

I'm not excusing bigotry or ignorance...we are all obligated to educate ourselves and get past it...but pointing it out to people that "Muslim family drops off drycleaning" or "Muslim teenager waves at neighbor as he cuts the lawn" doesn't get on CNN can open some eyes to the fact that they are only seeing the exceptions and not the whole picture.

 

 

 

 

That is partially correct, but I don't think it is the entire issue. 

Not everyone lives in a sheltered environment. For example, I have lived abroad, I have lived in different parts of the US and have been exposed to a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds. I have been an adult that lived in the "civilian" world and the military world. Most of my friends are pretty liberal and most would also consider me to be a "fellow liberal".  There are exceptions...things that I "believe" that don't fall into "typical liberal ideologies". Still, my world view isn't super limited.

In regards to the "I know Muslims" and have been exposed to Muslims, I do agree that most have not. In fact, I don't think many people know that much about Islam. I think this goes for both the right and the left.  I personally know Muslims who are really concerned about the world and concerned about ISIS. One Muslim friend (military) recently posted on FB asking everyone if they ever played Civilization.  He pointed out that the game is a long game, and that "Radical Islamic threats" are not going to be short lived.  He pointed out that if you ignore problems/attacks in the game, that they don't go away. They grow.  He frequently points out the ISIS says they will do things, and follows up. ISIS isn't making empty threats. It is valid to think it is scary. Do I live my life fearing that my neighborhood is going to be attacked by ISIS? No. Do I think about it when I am in a public place? Not often, but lately, more often (not limited to ISIS, but that also isn't NOT in my mind) Still, I try to be vigilant in life. 

We all know that not all Muslims are "bad" and not all Muslims are "good". We all know that of "pro-life/anti-choice" advocates as well.  Pro-life/anti-choice advocates also, mostly, know the same of "pro-choice" advocates. Part of the American way is to be able to express our views, debate, argue and so on.  Many pro-choice and anti-choice people are willing to argue and debate with one another in person, on the internet, on television and so on. We can even do this with some Muslims. We would NOT do it with ISIS. First, ISIS doesn't want to "discuss" or "debate".  They don't care. They don't only want to instill fear, they are not warning us, they are often TELLING us EXACTLY what they plan to do.  

The sweeping statements about white men don't happen  as often because (I think they do to an extent."Republican White Men" who own guns aren't always talked about in a positive light) there is not a large and growing group of white men who are threatening to slaughter random civilians in mass, releasing videos of beheadings, videos of throwing gay men off buildings and so on. These things are alarming to the rest of the world, as they should be. 

I think a large part of the problem is that our administration doesn't really seem to care. I say this as someone who voted for Obama, but I am angry now. In my opinion, it isn't only that I feel he is failing America, but that he is failing Muslim communities that are here because they wanted something better than what they had before. They don't want us to support fundamentalism. Liberal Muslims are getting the very worst end of the stick here. Not because of "white people" treating them badly, but because there are many Muslims who shun then, who treat them badly, who would hurt them and so on.  Imagine being a liberal muslim and seeing liberal america ridicule Christianity, but embrace ALL of Islam. 

Islam needs to see reform and we need to support those who are trying to do that. 

I am not religious at all, but if I were to bring my family to any place of worship, let's just pretend it is Christian, I would check out the church prior to going. I would want to know "what they are about."  I also know my local community and I know what churches are "fundie" and what churches are not. Most people don't even think about doing that with their local Mosque. One of the reasons Park51 was an issue was because there was no transparency with funding (namely foreign funding) and that concerned people.  People wanted to know if funding was going to be from radical organizations. 

Then you have groups like CAIR at the forefront of advocating for the Muslim community. Muslims in America deserve better than that. We all deserve better than that. 

So, when someone says Trump is Obama's fault...well, maybe that is ridiculous, but people are NOT happy. His approval rating is poor. People want change. I don't even know if anyone knows what they want, but they want change.(Isn't "change" what Obama ran on?) Trump is a showman. He is saying things that are "different" and people are responding. I don't want Trump to be our president, but America is a mess now and I think this reflects how poorly people view the current state of our country.  

[ADoyle90815]

33 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

I hope you are right. But what frightens me, looking in from the outside, isn't so much the stuff Trump spews, but the support he gets. His supporters are the truly scary ones, because there seem to be quite a few.

That's what scares me more than anything, are the Trump supporters because they love what he says. I hate to say it, but when I first heard that the Inland Regional Center was attacked last week, my first thought was that it was some Trump supporters going after those with disabilities. After all, this was shortly after he'd made fun of that reporter with cerebral palsy.

[salex]

Quote

Everyone with whom I spoke about the PP shootings was horrified.  The people I know who consider themselves staunchly pro-life were even more vocal about how upset they were because of the message it sends and to them you cannot be pro-life and take the life of another person, no matter how you judge their actions.

That is wholly different from what I heard from people when Dr. Tiller was shot to death in the vestibule of his church.  There was a lot of "Well, you should not kill people, but that guy got more done in a few minutes than all our political activity and protests did in the last 10 years."   

Of course, I know people who helped create anti-Tiller websites... so I'm sure they were sad to see him murdered... (Note the sarcasm font.)

 

Meanwhile, regarding Trump's plan or lack of same-- Tonya posted a link to this on her facebook.

http://www.afa.net/the-stand/immigration/2015/12/when-god-banned-immigration/  It explains why God would be for banning immigration of the wrong religion... and such bans are absolutely constitutional!  Yay for God and Country!  Good old AFA! 

Quote

 

The bottom line: a ban on immigration from nations which have demonstrated abiding hostility toward the United States is both constitutionally and biblically permissible. 

Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul agree. The rest of the GOP field does not. The issue now lies before the American people and their choice of a new president. May they choose wisely. 

 

Quote

Wisely

appears to be in the eye of the beholder. 

 

She then posted an "recipe" for soaking apple slices in cinnamon essential oil and nutmeg....yum???

 

[Mercer]

I can't fathom why someone of any religious faith would support what Trump said, even if they themselves are virulently prejudiced against Muslims too. Do they not see that establishing religious standards and barriers in government policy would wildly backfire against people of any faith if they ceased to be the ruling group?

Of course we should all be concerned about equal justice, but even if someone isn't... shouldn't pure self-interest kick in at some point? Shouldn't people who can't bring themselves to care about someone else's religious freedom still care about protecting their own? Even if they can't muster any empathy, wouldn't they at least have concern that if the precedent is set that the government has the right to do this, Christianity (or any other relious faith) could be next?

[samurai_sarah]

2 hours ago, ADoyle90815 said:

That's what scares me more than anything, are the Trump supporters because they love what he says. I hate to say it, but when I first heard that the Inland Regional Center was attacked last week, my first thought was that it was some Trump supporters going after those with disabilities. After all, this was shortly after he'd made fun of that reporter with cerebral palsy.

That's what troubles me so much. One person spewing hateful stuff isn't good, but if that person gathers a large public following then there's an issue. Especially if those followers go after vulnerable groups in society.

[Mecca]

I guess since some of the Republican candidates and others associated with the GOP are calling Trump out today, Trump decided to tweet this, "A new poll indicates that 68% of my supporters would vote for me if I departed the GOP & ran as an independent."

I have seen toddlers act more mature than this asshat. 

[Mercer]

5 minutes ago, Mecca said:

I guess since some of the Republican candidates and others associated with the GOP are calling Trump out today, Trump decided to tweet this, "A new poll indicates that 68% of my supporters would vote for me if I departed the GOP & ran as an independent."

I have seen toddlers act more mature than this asshat. 

It's also a super funny statistic.

I can do one about me, here goes: "100% of the people who think I'm fantastic like me!"

Of course they'd vote for him, they're his supporters. What exactly does he think "supporters" means?

[PennySycamore]

6 hours ago, GeoBQn said:

I highly recommend reading the book It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis.  It's a 1935 novel about what would happen if fascists took over America.  It was going to be made into a TV miniseries in the 1980s--until the producers basically said to the writer, "Star Wars is popular.  Can you make this about aliens?"  And that's the origin of the miniseries V.  Anyway, Trumps comments have been making me think about both works.

I did not know of the connection between  It Can't Happen Here and V.  Now I'll just have to envision the Donald eating a live rat.

[HarryPotterFan]

8 minutes ago, Mecca said:

I guess since some of the Republican candidates and others associated with the GOP are calling Trump out today, Trump decided to tweet this, "A new poll indicates that 68% of my supporters would vote for me if I departed the GOP & ran as an independent."

I have seen toddlers act more mature than this asshat. 

Did he pull these polling numbers out of his ass too?

If he pulled out and ran as a third party things could get interesting...he pledged not to run as a third party candidate if he's not elected as the GOP candidate. What happens if he breaks that pledge? I guess leaving on his own versus not being elected would allow for a third party run?

 

[Mecca]

1 minute ago, Mercer said:

It's also a super funny statistic.

I can do one about me, here goes: "100% of the people who think I'm fantastic like me!"

Of course they'd vote for him, they're his supporters. What exactly does he think "supporters" means?

LOL!

Oh, yes. I also have a statistic I would like to share.  "100% of the people that live in my household believe Donald Trump is a dumbass." 

[doggie]

the Donald got burned

 

Lindsey Graham: We’ll ‘Make America Great Again’ If Voters ‘Tell Donald Trump To Go To Hell’

[samurai_sarah]

7 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

I did not know of the connection between  It Can't Happen Here and V.  Now I'll just have to envision the Donald eating a live rat.

Poor rat. Rats are very clever animals.

[HarryPotterFan]

2 minutes ago, Mecca said:

LOL!

Oh, yes. I also have a statistic I would like to share.  "100% of the people that live in my household believe Donald Trump is a dumbass." 

100% of my household thinks a cat would make a better president than Donald Trump. Therefore, a cat could clearly defeat Trump in an election.

In addition to using meaningless facts, I can make up statistics too!!

69% of people giggle at the number 69.

[formergothardite]

The only way Trump will start losing supporters is if he starts mocking conservative Christianity. His followers don't care if he says awful things about Mexico, women, minorities, people with disabilities, or people of other religions, so he can keep saying nastier and nastier things about those groups and his followers will just cheer him on, but the second he touches conservative Christianity his fans will turn on him.  

[Jingerbread]

7 hours ago, Mecca said:

My heavens. Did anyone hear Trump's interview this morning on CNN? Uggghhhhh! It took everything in me not to throw my iPad across the room. This guy is nothing but a racist. Look at the people he is always going after. They are minorities. 

Funny how Trump hates the Muslims that reside or want to settle in the U. S., but he has no issue taking their money. His business was built on the dealings with countries and people that are Muslim. Hypocrite, much?

You know Donald Trump is bad when the Speaker of the House that is very conservative comes out and says Trump is out of control. 

In the car today, I was listening to how Paul Ryan, PAUL RYAN, who is already so far to the right that it seems there's nowhere left to move more to the right, saw saying that right-winger Trump is out of control and needs to be stopped.  All these right-wing-nuts are against him.  I think some of them are starting to see what they've caused.  They paved the way for this, and now they're finding they're the liberals to a guy they realize is dangerous.  Trump's holding a mirror up to them.  I hope this will cause some of them to become more moderate.  

[AnywhereButHere]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

I did not know of the connection between  It Can't Happen Here and V.  Now I'll just have to envision the Donald eating a live rat.

He may just staple one to his head when the current hairpiece dies off. 

And yeah, when Paul Ryan and Dick Cheney think you've gone too far...

[Cartmann99]

15 minutes ago, Jingerbread said:

In the car today, I was listening to how Paul Ryan, PAUL RYAN, who is already so far to the right that it seems there's nowhere left to move more to the right, saw saying that right-winger Trump is out of control and needs to be stopped.  All these right-wing-nuts are against him.  I think some of them are starting to see what they've caused.  They paved the way for this, and now they're finding they're the liberals to a guy they realize is dangerous.  Trump's holding a mirror up to them.  I hope this will cause some of them to become more moderate.  

If Trump decides to go third party and takes the base with him, then the establishment Republicans can safely decide to start acting like sane adults with a right of center point of view. If Trump stays in the party, the establishment Republicans must walk a tightrope and not piss off the base by being too moderate.

As others have said already, Republicans created this monster, so I don't have a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for them. I bet Reince Priebus rues the day he accepted his job with the RNC. 

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, Mecca said:

I guess since some of the Republican candidates and others associated with the GOP are calling Trump out today, Trump decided to tweet this, "A new poll indicates that 68% of my supporters would vote for me if I departed the GOP & ran as an independent."

I have seen toddlers act more mature than this asshat. 

The man is a clown and I don't really think he sees himself as president, but he's having a hell of a time on the ride.

With that said, I'd dearly love to see him run as a third party candidate.  In a fantasy Rubio, Trump, Sanders election, we'd end up with our first democratic socialist president....

[Mecca]

1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Did he pull these polling numbers out of his ass too?

If he pulled out and ran as a third party things could get interesting...he pledged not to run as a third party candidate if he's not elected as the GOP candidate. What happens if he breaks that pledge? I guess leaving on his own versus not being elected would allow for a third party run?

 

Yes. He pulled the stats out of his ass. Trump will need some Preparation H soon since it appears he is always pulling something out of his ass daily. That has got to be painful. 

That passive aggressive tweet was Trump's way of telling the GOP he is willing to go back on his promise and run as a third party candidate if they don't back off. I think he would go back on his word in a heartbeat. People and organizations that normally never get involved in the presidential race are now speaking out against Trump. He does not like to be second guessed. Trump has shown he has no integrity. His run for the presidency has never been about serving the public. It is about serving his ego. 

1 hour ago, doggie said:

the Donald got burned

 

Lindsey Graham: We’ll ‘Make America Great Again’ If Voters ‘Tell Donald Trump To Go To Hell’

I tell Donald to go to hell at least a dozen times a day. Today I lost count. 

[Catey]

IF he were to run and lose as an independent candidate 100% of me believes that he will demand a recount and then go on forever about the conspiracy that was waged against him to steal the White House from him.

It will make the whole Birth Certificate debacle seem plausible.

[HarryPotterFan]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

The man is a clown and I don't really think he sees himself as president, but he's having a hell of a time on the ride.

With that said, I'd dearly love to see him run as a third party candidate.  In a fantasy Rubio, Trump, Sanders election, we'd end up with our first democratic socialist president....

I accidentally referred to him as Ronald Trump once. There's a definite resemblance there.

[Mecca]

I can't stop laughing at those pictures. I will forever call him Ronald Trump. 

[GiggleOfGirls]

So, earlier today, the White House press secretary came out and said that Trump's statement about Muslims would disqualify him from being president. Does that statement actually carry any weight at all? 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/donald-trump-josh-earnest-disqualified-president-muslims/index.html

[PennySycamore]

2 hours ago, AnywhereButHere said:

He may just staple one to his head when the current hairpiece dies off. 

And yeah, when Paul Ryan and Dick Cheney think you've gone too far...

One of my daughters has unfortunately met him and swears his hair is real.  

[Whoosh]

47 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

One of my daughters has unfortunately met him and swears his hair is real.  

Now that's the most far-fetched claim I have ever seen on FreeJinger