Bates Family Part 5

[OrangeCat]

2 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

OK, I know that it may not mean anything but looks like Lawson may be at the Duggars again.  Not sure if he had a travel partner.  This was his post on Instagram taken at the OKlahoma-Arkansas border.  Is that close to the Duggars? I know that the Bates celebrated Christmas early so he may be going for Christmas or to celebrate a certain someone's just turning 22.  Just adding to the speculation again even though I'll probably have egg on my face.

https://www.instagram.com/p/_pDJ8fPfUj/?taken-by=lawbates

Well, from the point that shows up on the map when you follow the link on Instagram, it's less than an hour drive to the Duggars... 

[actuallyjessica]

I'm so sorry @actuallyjessica and @JMO for your losses. Hugs. Take time for yourselves. Don't rush your feelings. I had a miscarriage last December and this December my father killed himself so it's been shitty 2 years in a row. 

I'm very sorry I hope 2016 brings happiness to you and your family.

[AliceInFundyland]

On November 26, 2015 at 0:24 AM, RosyDaisy said:

Time for some reality:

 

* Gil quit a good paying job with benefits to cut trees and grift for Jesus

* The Bates have been shown using Gothard's teachings/character qualities. Former ATIers on FJ have pointed that many times.

* Gil is on the IBLP board of directors.

* Gil knew all about the sexual abuse and harassment claims against Gothard.

* Gil allowed his daughters to travel with Gothard knowing about those claims.

* Gil is and the BoD are being sued for covering up said abuses.

* Erin, Alyssa, and Michael are married to fundie royalty. They were practically arranged marriages in order to move up in the IBLP ranks.

 

Tell me again how the Bates come across as better parents?

I really appreciate how you do inject comments like this in the Bates thread every now and again. Gothard is a lecherous pervert. His behavior and tastes run right to the elder Bates girls and they very well could have been at ATI before he stepped down, particularly Erin and Michael. I encourage everyone to read more on recoveringgrace and read more of the blogs like heresyinthenheartland about girls who lived the whole experience. It's gross.

Also, the elder Bates girls are indeed married to a the son of congressman who participates in ATI, a fellow ATI board member, and then whatever Brandon Keilen's dad does (also high ranking). And yes, Gothard, ew, was at Erin's wedding. I believe the new board quietly wants to get rid of him and move into the mainstream, which is why some of the children's activities aren't problematic.

But as someone mentioned, these are the same beliefs as the Duggars. It's just Two families using the same cultish belief system just don't necessarily have the same results. 

I hung out with my Southern Baptist best friend's youth group from 6th through 12th grade. Some were assclowns; some were the nicest people ever. They were all taught the same thing. Then I somehow befriended the campus Christians on my uberliberal campus......

My point is that personalities come into it. And that is where the two families differ. The Bates are just nicer (yes, even if they blanket trained, who knows, maybe they regret it, thye've said they regret other choices they've made about the kids) 

 I think I could have a conversation with any elder Bates, we might not agree, they might be limited, but I think they'd be polite, friendly and they'd try. Not the case with the Duggars. I'd get preached at, lectured, and failing that, the bitchy blank smile stare.

Sorry, I know you posted that a month ago....but I really do like your injections of reality and newer folks do need to read up on the history. So I just wanted to react one more time.

[colors_outside15]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2015 at 11:03 AM, Feministe9000 said:

I know we have said before that Alyssa seems the most distant of the married children, not including the physical distance from Florida and Tennessee.

i just thought it was interesting when they talked over Christmas memories and traditions their family has had,  and THEN when they (Erin and Alyssa) were answering a question about decorating the house for Christmas too early, they used words I thought were a bit strange?

Alyssa said things like "I always love decorating the house", "always have the tree up before Thanksgiving" Erin says "Every year Chad and I" (they've only been married for 2?!??) I don't know, it's nothing major, i guess it just speaks to me as to how desperately they have clung to ownership over their own lives, because look at them now! 2 years ago, Alyssa had a poufy perm and too-big sandals on jumping all over John, Erin was having her fairytale first date with Chad....and now, bam!

I haven't watched those clips yet, but I find it interesting that UP would put Erin and Alyssa together in interviews. Why? Because Alyssa is SO OVER her mega-family while Erin still calls her mom her best friend and wouldn't change a thing about her childhood. In that last episode of Bringing up Bates, Alyssa was very visibly on her iPhone while the other children were watching candy being made --she didn't give a $hit about the candy. When told where to stand to sing, she rolled her eyes as much as I've seen any person do and it was automatic too. But, back to Erin and Alyssa ... Alyssa has a private instagram for just her friends. Zach/Whitney and Michael/Branden follow Alyssa's private instagram (I imagine her romantically kissing John and wearing a tankini at the beach without leghumpers saying "aren't you supposed to be in a skirt?"), but Erin/Chad do NOT follow her so, in my mind, Erin has essentially decided her sister isn't "Godly" enough (or something) to follow. That makes me so sad! Also, I always thought Michael was the most fundie, but at least she's keeping up with Alyssa's life! I also thought it was sad when Cherin said the best part about going to Florida was seeing the "original" Carson or whatever (great great grandpa/great grandpa). I mean, that is special and everything, but they also got to see Alyssa and John and Allie. It seemed obnoxious to single out that they had more fun with Charles Paine than with Alyssa and their friends (including Erin's close friend who threw her baby shower). Alyssa and John definitely seem to have the most money out of the four "Bates" couples - and due to their Disney visit and golfing thing - it seems likely Alyssa and John hosted Cherin while they were in Florida. It would have been kind to at least say "one" of our favorite things in Florida was Charles Paine, but Carson got to bond with Allie too! (or whatever). It speaks volumes to me that Erin won't follow her sister's actual instagram account. (Bates Family doesn't, which I bet Alyssa likes, and Lawson doesn't, but I think he will as soon as he's married. Right now, he can't see an "ungodly" woman). That action (the inaction of following Alyssa) reminds me of how stuck in Fundieland the Bates are, and Cherin. I want to like Cherin - and yeah, Chad is great, but -- go, Alyssa! You don't have to sing at Dollywood in a family approved skirt. Wear jeans and a tanktop. If your family is uncomfortable - good thing you built a new one with your supportive husband, John. (Do I like them (the Websters)? Probably not. I definitely disagree with their beliefs, but at least - at least - they're willing to branch out from what's been engrained since birth).

[colors_outside15]

3 hours ago, Milly-Molly-Mandy said:

Prediction:

Alyssa (who I think is already pregnant & nope I haven't said this other than this month!) 

michael

whitney

erin

 

All by the end of 2016...

 

 

1) Whitney (no full body pictures for a while, and now her face is significantly bloated/rounder [what's the right word here?] than in previous non-pregnant photos). Also, they seem okay with announcing at, or before, three months

2) Alyssa (face changed, Allie Jane is always blocking her body, some pictures look exactly like they did before Alyssa's first pregnancy was announced) I don't know if she is farther along than Whitney or not, but last time they didn't announce until - what 20ish weeks? I think Zach and Whit will announce first, but I don't think that necessarily means they'll have #2 before Alyssa and John

3) Michael (not pregnant yet - is definitely trying and wants to be - if she has the same problem as Erin, she knows how to treat it, and can work on that this year)

All definitely in 2016

4) Erin (they want more children, but I think Chad will be a little cautious because he so clearly loves Erin and has some medical knowledge [right? didn't his dad used to be a doctor?])

Could be 2016, but with all the complications, 2017 seems possible too. I really really don't think Chad wants Erin's life to be in jeopardy

[Luisainlondon1]

1 hour ago, colors_outside15 said:

I haven't watched those clips yet, but I find it interesting that UP would put Erin and Alyssa together in interviews. Why? Because Alyssa is SO OVER her mega-family while Erin still calls her mom her best friend and wouldn't change a thing about her childhood. In that last episode of Bringing up Bates, Alyssa was very visibly on her iPhone while the other children were watching candy being made --she didn't give a $hit about the candy. When told where to stand to sing, she rolled her eyes as much as I've seen any person do and it was automatic too. But, back to Erin and Alyssa ... Alyssa has a private instagram for just her friends. Zach/Whitney and Michael/Branden follow Alyssa's private instagram (I imagine her romantically kissing John and wearing a tankini at the beach without leghumpers saying "aren't you supposed to be in a skirt?"), but Erin/Chad do NOT follow her so, in my mind, Erin has essentially decided her sister isn't "Godly" enough (or something) to follow. That makes me so sad! Also, I always thought Michael was the most fundie, but at least she's keeping up with Alyssa's life! I also thought it was sad when Cherin said the best part about going to Florida was seeing the "original" Carson or whatever (great great grandpa/great grandpa). I mean, that is special and everything, but they also got to see Alyssa and John and Allie. It seemed obnoxious to single out that they had more fun with Charles Paine than with Alyssa and their friends (including Erin's close friend who threw her baby shower). Alyssa and John definitely seem to have the most money out of the four "Bates" couples - and due to their Disney visit and golfing thing - it seems likely Alyssa and John hosted Cherin while they were in Florida. It would have been kind to at least say "one" of our favorite things in Florida was Charles Paine, but Carson got to bond with Allie too! (or whatever). It speaks volumes to me that Erin won't follow her sister's actual instagram account. (Bates Family doesn't, which I bet Alyssa likes, and Lawson doesn't, but I think he will as soon as he's married. Right now, he can't see an "ungodly" woman). That action (the inaction of following Alyssa) reminds me of how stuck in Fundieland the Bates are, and Cherin. I want to like Cherin - and yeah, Chad is great, but -- go, Alyssa! You don't have to sing at Dollywood in a family approved skirt. Wear jeans and a tanktop. If your family is uncomfortable - good thing you built a new one with your supportive husband, John. (Do I like them (the Websters)? Probably not. I definitely disagree with their beliefs, but at least - at least - they're willing to branch out from what's been engrained since birth).

I never really got the feeling that Alyssa and Erin are close. Erin was the princess of the Bates girls while Alyssa and Michaela were the home economics. I can totally see Erin being judgmental of Alyssa's styling and clothes. I was a little surprised when Alyssa said she talks to Michaela almost every day but it makes sense that they're close even though they seem to have completely different personalities.

When there're 19 kids in one family you can't expect they all get along well with each other. Of course we really don't know if Alyssa and Erin like each other or not, but that's what UP really wants us to believe: One big, happy family.

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

I really appreciate how you do inject comments like this in the Bates thread every now and again. Gothard is a lecherous pervert. His behavior and tastes run right to the elder Bates girls and they very well could have been at ATI before he stepped down, particularly Erin and Michael. I encourage everyone to read more on recoveringgrace and read more of the blogs like heresyinthenheartland about girls who lived the whole experience. It's gross.

Also, the elder Bates girls are indeed married to a the son of congressman who participates in ATI, a fellow ATI board member, and then whatever Brandon Keilen's dad does (also high ranking). And yes, Gothard, ew, was at Erin's wedding. I believe the new board quietly wants to get rid of him and move into the mainstream, which is why some of the children's activities aren't problematic.

But as someone mentioned, these are the same beliefs as the Duggars. It's just Two families using the same cultish belief system just don't necessarily have the same results. 

I hung out with my Southern Baptist best friend's youth group from 6th through 12th grade. Some were assclowns; some were the nicest people ever. They were all taught the same thing. Then I somehow befriended the campus Christians on my uberliberal campus......

My point is that personalities come into it. And that is where the two families differ. The Bates are just nicer (yes, even if they blanket trained, who knows, maybe they regret it, thye've said they regret other choices they've made about the kids) 

 I think I could have a conversation with any elder Bates, we might not agree, they might be limited, but I think they'd be polite, friendly and they'd try. Not the case with the Duggars. I'd get preached at, lectured, and failing that, the bitchy blank smile stare.

Sorry, I know you posted that a month ago....but I really do like your injections of reality and newer folks do need to read up on the history. So I just wanted to react one more time.

I think that most the Bates children are probably niceish(but I also think the same about the Duggar children), but I don't see how Gil and Kelly are nicer than Jim Bob and Michelle. They are better at putting on a good show and covering up their dark belief system, but as for being actually nicer? No, I don't see it. Gil is a conniving grifter who now is on a board that is trying to shuffle money around to avoid it being given to victims of the very cult he helps manage. Doesn't exactly sound like a nice person to me. Kelly still supports the horrible Ezzo baby training that she used on her babies. 

I have always felt that the biggest difference between the families is at what point the parents were able to exploit their children on television. The Duggars were able to do it when their older children were at a very impressionable age and we have seen more of them. It took longer for the Bates to be able to do that and they had the benefit of watching the Duggars and figuring out what parts of their life they need to hide to keep from getting backlash. 

[19 cats and counting]

RE:  Erin and Alyssa's relationship.  Even in a smaller family, not all siblings will be close.  I've never been close to my own sister (no other siblings).  It's a  normal family dynamic whether there's 2 or 19 kids.  

One thing I will give Gil and Kelly credit for is that they are open to change, however minor it may be.  They learned from Zach's failed courtship and actually let their kids set their own courtship rules (yes their 3 married daughters all married ATI royalty).  The Duggars claim that they do, but all 3 courtships had the same rules.  But with the Bates, you saw frontal hugging and even kissing before marriage.  

I think the real test is the next generation.  Will Bradley, Allie, and Carson all be homeschooled using ATI materials (we're already seeing it with Mackynzie Duggar)?  Only time will tell as they're all still babies.

[picklepizzas]

4 hours ago, Luisainlondon1 said:

I never really got the feeling that Alyssa and Erin are close. Erin was the princess of the Bates girls while Alyssa and Michaela were the home economics. I can totally see Erin being judgmental of Alyssa's styling and clothes. I was a little surprised when Alyssa said she talks to Michaela almost every day but it makes sense that they're close even though they seem to have completely different personalities.

When there're 19 kids in one family you can't expect they all get along well with each other. Of course we really don't know if Alyssa and Erin like each other or not, but that's what UP really wants us to believe: One big, happy family.

this surprises me too! when did she say that? 

[imokit]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I have always felt that the biggest difference between the families is at what point the parents were able to exploit their children on television. The Duggars were able to do it when their older children were at a very impressionable age and we have seen more of them. It took longer for the Bates to be able to do that and they had the benefit of watching the Duggars and figuring out what parts of their life they need to hide to keep from getting backlash. 

I agree to am extent, however there are key differences.  

Some of the adult Bates kids are making different choices to the parents - Zach not courting (at least not until after dating and then converting it to a courtship). Alyssa wearing pants.  

Yes it's all very superficialbut it's more than we've seen from the Duggars. 

Also their boys (at least publically) have more of a relationship with their siblings.  I can't remember the last time I saw Josh, JD, Joe or Josiah do something with the lost girls or a niece or nephew,  but Lawson seems to enjoy holding babies, and doing things with both his brothers and sisters.

Yes some of it is marketing, but even marketing needs to start somewhere. 

 

[Lewy]

When it comes to Erin and Alyssa, I think it is worth remember that there is not necessarily something 'wrong' if you're not best friends with your siblings. The old adage that you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family is very much true in my experience. The thing with siblings is you don't get to pick who these people are, there is no guarantee that you'll have anything in common with them or even like them yet you're pretty much 'stuck' with them growing up and then a few times a year when you're adults. I have a sibling that I love and care about as a member of my family, but if we were not related, we'd never choose to be friends or hang out wit each other, we're just such fundamentally different people with different interests and outlooks on life.

With 19 children in a family, you are going to get such a mix of personality types and it's entirely normal and OK that a couple of the siblings might not 'click' as friends and while they care for each other the way you do about family, they don't really have any desire to be "bffs" or socialise outside family events and that some siblings will be close to others. And that's OK. Doesn't mean anyone things they are better than anyone or whatever.

I've noticed that Erin and Lawson seem pretty close while Alyssa seems very fond of Josie. There seem to be other examples in the family of siblings having close relationships so I don't think the family is especially dysfunctional beyond the ATI nonsense. Alyssa and Erin just don't 'click' for whatever reason and seem to be very different people. And that's OK.

Your sister doesn't have to be your best friend. 

[elliha]

Agreed about siblings. I am not as close to all my siblings and I only have one sister and three brothers, with 19 I would for sure not be as close to all of them, some might even be so different that I would not socialize with them outside family gatherings even without there being a conflict between us. 

About the Bates being better than the Duggars. I do think the Bates have done a better job at parenting and I don't think that it is all show that it seems that way. It is very hard to fake how you interact with young kids and it would shine through more if they were always putting on a show. There does seem to be genuine affection between parents and kids as well as between siblings in a way I don't see as much of with the Duggars. Small things can make a huge difference in how children cope with life. Even if they used the same methods there might be differences in how they were implemented and how the children were treated at other times. We have no idea of for example either the Duggars or the Bates tweeked the Ezzo method to suit their family and in what way. Things that we don't know can be crucial for the long term well-being of the kids.

[accountingstar]

I thought that it was nice that the Bates Family thanked their television crew. It also appears that they were filming during the holiday season.

 

 

[socalrules]

Yes, the Bates have the same belief system as the Duggars but they do seem to have allowed more positive experiences for their kids that may pay off in the long run. The Bates encourage all their kids to go to college, even if just for one semester to see if they like it. It may be Crown College but it is a tentative step. We may snark on a Crown but it's better than sitting home doing nothing while waiting for Prince Charming. The Duggars have pushed college minus, although it seems Joseph was allowed to attend Crown. The Bates even have a daughter who graduated from Crown. Tori seems to have been able to form real friendships at college that are not the whole family friendships the Duggars seem to only allow.

The Bates kids such as Zach have had real jobs outside the family. Zach actually financially supports his family with a real job that is not family related.  Erin has basically built her own business on her music. She is a real working mother and business owner. That has to be empowering. Michael was a nanny to working parents and took classes at community college at the same time. I have little hope for any of this occurring in the Duggar family.

Once again, I agree the Bates and Duggars ultimately have the same belief system but it seems that Gil and Kelly have actually set their kids up in such a way that they could actually walk away from Gothard. They may not even realize it. They have given their kids opportunities to venture out into the world and we have seen them make small steps in the direction of their own making, not that of their parents. They ultimately gradually slip away from Gothard without even realizing it. I will give the Bates kids the benefit of the doubt because they do appear to be making their own life choices. The Duggar kids seem to have held firm to Duggarville and seem to have no intention of stepping out on their own. 

[Luisainlondon1]

2 hours ago, picklepizzas said:

this surprises me too! when did she say that? 

In one episode of Season 1. Alyssa and Michaela were both sitting on a tree trunk (?) and talking about how close they all are.

[Jigsaw3]

Whitney and Alyssa are the parents of the oldest two grandchildren, and out of the four married couples I think they are the mothers who are least likely to want to homeschool. Whitney wasn't homeschooled, I don't think; does anyone know about John? If either of them sends their child/ren to preschool or school outside the home, even a Christian one, it will be easier for their siblings to follow suit. If a pattern of homeschooling emerges, it will be harder for subsequent siblings to break free, but I have hope for Bradley and Allie Jane, and eventually for their cousins.

[formergothardite]

I guess to me, it just seems like a lot or most of the differences could be caused by not having the reality television fame and not Gil and Kelly being naturally nicer and better people. I think that if things had been switched that we would see more Duggars going to college, Duggars wearing pants and the kids having a different dynamic, while the Bates would probably have ended up like the Duggar kids. I think they have been parented pretty much the same and the biggest difference is the reality tv fame and money. 

Even the thing about thanking the crew, the Bates have seen the Duggars be criticized about that and one thing the Bates have shown is that they do know how to avoid doing the things that people find offensive about the Duggars. They know how to tweek their image to fit what the public wants to see. 

[19 cats and counting]

37 minutes ago, Jigsaw3 said:

Whitney and Alyssa are the parents of the oldest two grandchildren, and out of the four married couples I think they are the mothers who are least likely to want to homeschool. Whitney wasn't homeschooled, I don't think; does anyone know about John? If either of them sends their child/ren to preschool or school outside the home, even a Christian one, it will be easier for their siblings to follow suit. If a pattern of homeschooling emerges, it will be harder for subsequent siblings to break free, but I have hope for Bradley and Allie Jane, and eventually for their cousins.

Considering John's father was instrumental in getting FL's homeschooling laws loosened or passed (too lazy to look it up), I'd put money on him being homeschooled.

[thebestusername]

On 11/30/2015 at 11:09 AM, TXGirlInAMaterialWorld said:

The biggest difference I see between the two families is that the Bates belong to the cult of ATI where the Duggars are in the cult of Jim Bob.  

Very well said the Duggars break many of the ATI rules but JimBob always has a reason for it. But the Bates are practically perfect from an ATI/Bill Gothard standpoint.

[BullyJBG]

I remember, when Zach and Whitney had their blog going(it's since gone, or gone private; I'm not sure which) she was asked if they would homeschool. She said she was looking forward to homeschooling, and they weren't sure which curriculum. to use. But a lot can change in the 4 more years until little Bradley's ready for that.

[hollywood]

i do feel like whitney will do a better job homeschooling. She seems to actually care about raising her kid to be smart [re: Duggars]

[Nikedagain?]

13 hours ago, Luisainlondon1 said:

I never really got the feeling that Alyssa and Erin are close. Erin was the princess of the Bates girls while Alyssa and Michaela were the home economics. I can totally see Erin being judgmental of Alyssa's styling and clothes. I was a little surprised when Alyssa said she talks to Michaela almost every day but it makes sense that they're close even though they seem to have completely different personalities.

When there're 19 kids in one family you can't expect they all get along well with each other. Of course we really don't know if Alyssa and Erin like each other or not, but that's what UP really wants us to believe: One big, happy family.

Didn't one of the younger girls cry buckets of  sweet,salty, fundie  tears when Alyssa got married? Which one was that??

[actuallyjessica]

13 hours ago, Luisainlondon1 said: I never really got the feeling that Alyssa and Erin are close. Erin was the princess of the Bates girls while Alyssa and Michaela were the home economics. I can totally see Erin being judgmental of Alyssa's styling and clothes. I was a little surprised when Alyssa said she talks to Michaela almost every day but it makes sense that they're close even though they seem to have completely different personalities.

When there're 19 kids in one family you can't expect they all get along well with each other. Of course we really don't know if Alyssa and Erin like each other or not, but that's what UP really wants us to believe: One big, happy family.

Didn't one of the younger girls cry buckets of  sweet,salty, fundie  tears when Alyssa got married? Which one was that??

I think that was Addee or Callie or Ellie, with Michael.

I don't think Alyssa was very close to any of her youngest siblings, I do know her and Josie shared s room and were close though.

[IzzyM]

39 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

Didn't one of the younger girls cry buckets of  sweet,salty, fundie  tears when Alyssa got married? Which one was that??

It was Josie, on an ABC special about Alyssa's wedding, i think.

[19 cats and counting]

Meanwhile it seems like Callie is the one that is crying buckets now because Michaela left.  In every pic where Michael and Brandon are back home, Callie is clinging like crazy.  I think Kelly even admitted that the little ones cried like crazy after they went back home.