Joshley Madison Part 6 - Sin, Confess, Repeat

[Jessa's Feet]

well my kids are fucked then.

Also a reminder to start/keep non conservative Christian media (news, Internet, tabloids, and television) out of your household so you don't see any future possible updates about anything that Josh may have done (literally....). Kills two bird with one stone. Jim Bob really wants to stress the importance of staying away from all of these forms of evil right now. Very evil. Don't read In Touch, it's the Devil's glossy rag mag for when he's pinching a loaf.

[RosyDaisy]

Both of these scandals has me convinced that their are more victims (as in non consensual).

[RosyDaisy]

That blog was indeed backdated. Do these people not realize there are IT people amongst the Duggar snarkers? Nice try, though.

[JenniferJuniper]

Jennifer Juniper,

No, it's not a post Vatican II thing. The Greek Orthodox have never believed in Hell as a literal place. Like Catholicism, they teach that Hell is the absence of the spirit of God. All sin is also not equal. You need to do a lot more worrying if you killed someone than if you called them a twat.

I was asking with regard only to the RC Church's official teachings and when things might have changed about Hell. It sounds as though some Catholics were recently taught that Hell was a a real place while others, like myself, were told Hell was merely a metaphor as far back as the 60's. I wasn't addressing any other churches or religions.

(As for myself, I think all religions are silly. Some just seem more dangerous than others.)

[RosyDaisy]

So apparently Jboob just uploaded a note to fathers....

duggarfamily.com/note-to-fathers

My favorite part is:

" Start protecting your family by removing books, magazines, television, or internet that have worldly or sensual content. Replace them with good things like wholesome music, biographies of great Christians, good old-fashioned family fun and games. Love God with your whole heart and look for opportunities to serve others as a family and tell others about our Saviour."

:angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

Fuck you, JB! If you and Michelle weren't such shitty parents, Josh probably wouldn't be so fucked in the head!

[SoybeanQueen]

So apparently Jboob just uploaded a note to fathers....

duggarfamily.com/note-to-fathers

My favorite part is:

" Start protecting your family by removing books, magazines, television, or internet that have worldly or sensual content. Replace them with good things like wholesome music, biographies of great Christians, good old-fashioned family fun and games. Love God with your whole heart and look for opportunities to serve others as a family and tell others about our Saviour."

Uh, excuse me, Jim Bob, but could you explain to me why anyone in their right mind would actually give a lazy fuck what you think about being a father? You're not exactly knocking that out of the park lately.

[SoybeanQueen]

Different levels of sin is not generally used in Protestant churches. I can't speak for all of them, but I've been to several denominations, and the "all sin is equal" thing has been pretty consistent. In my experience, it simply means that Jesus' death covers any sin for those who believe in Him and confess. The confession part varies. Some believe they must go to another person to confess. I personally believe that confession is between the sinner and God, but I also think God understands the heart and can figure it out regardless of how you do it.

I think what trips up humans in general as far as the idea of sin is that we cannot wrap our minds around a white lie being the same as murder. When it comes to human consequences and justice, those things are clearly not the same. But if God works the way the Bible says, both the murderer and the lie-teller can be forgiven if they ask and believe, right? So in that manner, the sin is the same. The murderer will probably still go to jail or be executed or whatever the consequence is, but God's grace doesn't work the same way ours does, which is why it's special.

I'm not a theologian. My interpretation may or may not be acceptable when you get to the pearly gates. Use at your own risk.

[TheJewAmongUs]

Whether he knew about the hack or not, he impresses me as being arrogant enough to think he'd never be caught, hence the nodding along.

The one thing that has been consistent about him since the beginning is that he has always believed his own hype.

[Three and Done]

Eariler in this thread, the Seven Deadly Sins were mentioned.

I am now an agnostic, but I do recall from my period of intense biblical study and immersement in a conservative Baptist church that the Seven Deadly Sins were a construct of Pope Gregory of the Roman Catholic Church (and later expanded upon by Thomas Aquinas).

They are (in order, which I did research before posting LOL):

Pride

Greed

Lust

Envy

Gluttony

Wrath

Sloth

[Sundaymorning]

Fuck you, JB! If you and Michelle weren't such shitty parents, Josh probably wouldn't be so fucked in the head!

Exactly. But this just shows how incredibly fucked up in the head they really are. Instead of finally re-evaluating their child raising methods and values, they just keep pushing even harder in the wrong direction. They have a one-track mind where any attempts of critical thinking get perpetually erased by Gothards brainwashing.

[YoshiCat]

I really wonder what affect this is having on the offspring who still live in the house. I believe (but I could be wrong) that the Gothard/IBPL instruction is that if there's an incident of moral impurity, you clamp down even tighter on everyone else.

It makes sense in their context. If someone had a sexual something, then the parents clearly weren't doing enough to prevent it. I seriously wonder if Josiah was forced to break his courtship to prevent him from possibly having sexual thoughts about Marjorie. With everything spinning out of control and all sexual licentiousness in the air, they can't take the risk that they might front hug. :o

I know that supposedly the man can't break a courtship, but Jim Boob and Michelle are definitely of the "it's different when we do it" school of thought.

[Arete]

I was asking with regard only to the RC Church's official teachings and when things might have changed about Hell. It sounds as though some Catholics were recently taught that Hell was a a real place while others, like myself, were told Hell was merely a metaphor as far back as the 60's. I wasn't addressing any other churches or religions.

(As for myself, I think all religions are silly. Some just seem more dangerous than others.)

Got it. I hadn't picked up that some Catholics had been taught Hell is literal. I grew up in the Northeast around a lot of "social justice" Catholics, so I just assumed all Catholics were taught hell as metaphor.

[WorkingOnIt]

I'm sure there are as many different interpretations of what sin means as there are denominations... or, probably, as there are pastors in the entire Christian church. I grew up in a gentle Church of England/Anglican/Methodist setting where sin and hell were hardly mentioned. When I joined an American-style church as a teenager their spin on theology was completely unfamiliar to me.

The fact that as humans we *all* understand that some sins are worse than others, while (some) churches say otherwise, is just one of the many forms of cognitive dissonance one must deal with in order to keep the faith.

By saying all sins are equal in God's eyes, the congregation can shrug off adultery, or reassign a known child molester to another parish, etc. because God forgives those sins as easily as any other. And at the same time, they have justification for coming down hard on the tiniest infraction (usually designed to keep their women and children in line) and every "sensual" (thanks, Jim Bob) thought is equal to adultery.

[WorkingOnIt]

I really wonder what affect this is having on the offspring who still live in the house. I believe (but I could be wrong) that the Gothard/IBPL instruction is that if there's an incident of moral impurity, you clamp down even tighter on everyone else.

The Duggars haven't shown they believe there's even the slightest crack in their child-rearing philosophy after the various troubles with Josh - they blame worldly influences, which means the solution would indeed be to double down on the Gothardism. They've already done this with Josh - giving him the same failed treatment of hard work and prayer as last time. Those poor kids still at home are in for a rough time.

[LiberalChristian]

The Duggars haven't shown they believe there's even the slightest crack in their child-rearing philosophy after the various troubles with Josh - they blame worldly influences, which means the solution would indeed be to double down on the Gothardism. They've already done this with Josh - giving him the same failed treatment of hard work and prayer as last time. Those poor kids still at home are in for a rough time.

I agree. I feel badly for the kids and kidults who are living at the TTH. They are probably being lectured and made to spend hours in the prayer closet. The only plus is that maybe Boob and DQ will end up allocating more time to spend with them one-on-one, if only to ensure that they are not having "impure" thoughts or lusting after the mail carrier. :penguin-no:

It will be interesting to see if any of their shinny toys get taken away and if courtship will become even more strict. Maybe no more side hugs until engagement or a total hands off courtship! It's too bad that they don't realize that being so sex obsessed and ATI crazed, that they are pushing their children to want to experience worldly things but the two of them are straight coo coo!

[Tenyari]

Uh, excuse me, Jim Bob, but could you explain to me why anyone in their right mind would actually give a lazy fuck what you think about being a father? You're not exactly knocking that out of the park lately.

You took words right out of my mouth! I was just about to say virtually the same thing, like whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy would anyone listen to him when it's now even more obvious (and public) than ever that he is a horrible father/role model???

[albanuadh_1]

" Start protecting your family by removing books, magazines, television, or internet that have worldly or sensual content. Replace them with good things like wholesome music, biographies of great Christians, good old-fashioned family fun and games. Love God with your whole heart and look for opportunities to serve others as a family and tell others about our Saviour."

But isn't that what the Duggars always professed doing? Didn't work well for Josh, did it!

[SoybeanQueen]

By saying all sins are equal in God's eyes, the congregation can shrug off adultery, or reassign a known child molester to another parish, etc. because God forgives those sins as easily as any other. And at the same time, they have justification for coming down hard on the tiniest infraction (usually designed to keep their women and children in line) and every "sensual" (thanks, Jim Bob) thought is equal to adultery.

In the cult or cult-like groups, yes. I don't think you would find many people who feel that way in mainstream groups.

[Artemesia]

I agree. I feel badly for the kids and kidults who are living at the TTH. They are probably being lectured and made to spend hours in the prayer closet. The only plus is that maybe Boob and DQ will end up allocating more time to spend with them one-on-one, if only to ensure that they are not having "impure" thoughts or lusting after the mail carrier. :penguin-no:

It will be interesting to see if any of their shinny toys get taken away and if courtship will become even more strict. Maybe no more side hugs until engagement or a total hands off courtship! It's too bad that they don't realize that being so sex obsessed and ATI crazed, that they are pushing their children to want to experience worldly things but the two of them are straight coo coo!

Maybe all of the kidults will be forced into courtship now. And compared to JBs dictatorship it might seem like a good idea to them, even if they've previously dragged their feet. And fewer mouths to feed at TTH.

[SoybeanQueen]

You took words right out of my mouth! I was just about to say virtually the same thing, like whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy would anyone listen to him when it's now even more obvious (and public) than ever that he is a horrible father/role model???

I just can't even imagine how deluded he must be to think that he is qualified to dispense advice on this topic.

I'm really trying hard not to think about the kind of people who would actually consider his parenting tips as valid, because you know there are still plenty of leghumpers who think they're model parents. If it was anyone else, would they say, "Gosh, their eldest son molested several of their other kids, then he later cheated on his wife, they devoted more time on the show to talking about how the girls' knees shouldn't show than to anything of real substance, none of the kids have real jobs or decent education to speak of, and at least 25 percent of their perfect courtship examples have failed... This sounds like the ideal person to tell me how to be a good parent!"

[St.Clara]

So the "all sins are equal" idea is to remind us that it's not our fellow beings we should feel bad about wronging, but God. Have I got that right? Whether I molest a child or whether I lust over Idris Elba, who is not my spouse, either way I'm disrespecting God, and that's all that matters?

That´s exactly the point, at least according to what this former homeschooler has to say:

There was a time in my teenage years when I was really struggling with lust and masturbating. I was trying to stop wanting to masturbate, and the natural hormonal urges I was feeling — that was “lust,†that was the devil trying to tempt me. I had a couple of friends and we struggled with this together. One of the guys literally preyed on underage girls; that was his thing. That was his struggle. We would discuss our struggles as if they were equal, as if we were both struggling with this “lust.†My action that I couldn’t control was masturbating, but his action that he couldn’t control was preying on underage girls. That’s the kind of equivocation that it creates. These Christians have been saying this about Josh Duggar. There is no conception of different levels of a sin.

salon.com/2015/06/08/a_former_homeschooler_on_the_duggar_familys_horrifying_fundamentalist_education_it%E2%80%99s_literal_rape_culture/

This probably also serves to explain why, according to Jim-Bob, so many families struggle with this "issue". I see two possibilies: 1) the "issue" - in their world - includes teens masturbating (although in that case I´d be surprised to hear that there are not basically all families having "that problem"). 2) If teenagers who are trying to cope with their hormonal urges are basically given the choice of what sin they prefer (masturbation or preying on underage girls), it seems reasonable to suppose that relatively more teens will choose to prey on underage girls in comparison to the average population where it is made clear to everybody that even while masturbation may be somewhat frowned upon in some families, it is still far more acceptable than preying on underage girls which is seen as a crime by everybody - and which also strongly increases the risk of being reported, compared to the risk in a fundie environment where girls are being shamed basically for merely existing and even bystanders use to feel helpless:

I knew girls who had been sexually abused, but I didn’t know really that that’s what it was at the time. But I saw so many situations that when I looked back at them I was just like, “God, I can’t believe I didn’t do anything about them.†But at the same time I would have never known what to do. I would have not known how to help a girl get out of an abusive home.

[St.Clara]

So Jim Bob just loves to talk about other people's sins doesn't he? He still talks about Michelle's 'sins' of dating and mowing in a bikini and now stands up in church to talk about Josh's molestation sin. Not that Josh deserves for that to just be forgotten but you just wonder how often he guilts the kids by constantly bringing up their past faults.

Re: the bolded I tend to think that it turns him on to regularly recall that the woman he will have sex with tonight used to be such a dirty little slut. :mrgreen:

Frankly, I'd love to hear about some of Jim Bob's sins. Nobody's as squeaky clean as he's making himself out to be with his distraction tactic of focusing on everyone else's sins.

Agreed. I strongly suspect, he´s what they would call a "porn addict" himself. No hard proof for that, obviously, but I think there is a reason for why his wife and daughters monitor his cell phone and internet. Besides, I remember M once bragging about how great JB was because he used to humbly confess his sins before God and before his wife. (Could admittedly have been any sort of sin, it´s just that how she said it gave me the feeling that these were "special" sins...)

[TL;DR]

Re: the bolded I tend to think that it turns him on to regularly recall that the woman he will have sex with tonight used to be such a dirty little slut. :mrgreen:

A million times yes to this.

[justbecause]

You took words right out of my mouth! I was just about to say virtually the same thing, like whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy would anyone listen to him when it's now even more obvious (and public) than ever that he is a horrible father/role model???

The truly sad part is that everyone see's that but JB & Jchelle, they have drank their own kool-aid.

[Themiscyran]

Bruce Gerencser has post about the "Reformers' Unanimous" fake psychology, which I have not seen previously linked:

brucegerencser.net/2015/08/reformers-unanimous-is-this-where-josh-duggar-is-getting-treatment-for-his-sex-addiction/

He orginally wrote this in October 2013 and re-posted in light of Josh Duggar getting his treatment there. It's pretty interesting to me that RU is obviously trying to do the peer support approach of the "X Anonymous" 12 step programs, but without any of the emphasis on insight and reflection. He also has a list of the "medical" saff and advisros people formerly associated with RU who as of 2015 are no linger linked tot the webpage:

Dr. Morris Harper, Dr. George Crabb, Dr. Timothy Gaul, and Dr. Maureen Gaul. Crabb is located in Florida, the other three doctors are located in Pennsylvania. (as far as I could ascertain from a cursory web search)

RU also has an advisory board made up of nine men, including Illinois State Senator Dave Syverson. There are no women on the advisory board.

What a shock that there are no women on the advisory board! /snark.

He also has a breakdown of the fake-DSM they have written. I find it amazing that these groups sneer so much at psychology but then parrot the language. Needless to say their "diagnostic manual" sounds like an appalling attempt to medicalize fundamentalist notions of sin.

I think it is safe to say that if Josh Duggar really gets help from his "treatment" it really will be miraculous.