Joshley Madison Part 6 - Sin, Confess, Repeat

[gemma]

Insert typical newbie/first post disclaimer here ^_^

Since Josh was sent to RU my personal fb exploded. Apparently one of my high school friends went there to get over her heroin addiction. Everyone was asking about it and it explained why she sounds brainwashed. I'm incredulous as to how this is going to help anyone since it seems to be one very, very long Bible Brainwashing Camp.

Wow! Can I ask if she got any actual medical or professional help there? Or was it all god and the bible?

[Themiscyran]

I've been reading what I can about Reformer's Unanimous and trying to figure out where on earth they get the support for their "80%" (or 82%) success rate. That's just an unbelievably high rate for addiction treatment or counseling. No luck on finding their methodology--I can;t even find if that's supposed to be for their residential treatment or for their faux-AA support groups. But I did find this:

jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=27770

It's from a Christian discussion board and involves a Pentecostal poster who is looking into starting a Reformers Unanimous group at his church because he is impressed with their program. He gets a pretty interesting answer from the group leader:

I talked at some length with two of the men who are in leadership with Reformers Unanimous this week. They have advised me that they do not allow pentecostal churches to use their name (in other words, can't call the program "Reformers Unanimous"). They do allow churches that do not align with them (and, when I say align I mean lock step) doctrinally to use their curriculum and all their accessories (which I have mixed thoughts about and will mention below) for awards, etc. You just can't use the name, which I honestly don't like in particular anyway but figured there's no accounting for taste so I kept that to myself.

My first inclination is to say to them, "Well, you know, I'm probably the most sympathetic-to-your-view-guy-in-a-pentecostal-church-you'd-find." But, I'm not ready to start apologizing for being where God has placed me in the Body, so I'm not going there. My second inclination is just hurt feelings --- and I'm not used to that. I have never experienced such an outright slap in the face, although it was done sweetly enough. But, it is hard to hear, "You're not good enough for us" in one breath and to hear, "but we'll take your money if you pay at the back door" the next.

So basically, RU is happy to sell their materials to any comers, but you can't call yourself an RU group unless you're a particular brand of fundamentalist Baptist? :?

Maybe I'm cynical, but this seems like an incredibly effective way to control their image and brand. :evil-eye:

Which makes me think that a good deal of their "success" rate is being able to carefully control who can officially say they've been through RU.

Again, I'm cynical. But if their program were so gosh-darn effective on its own merits, wouldn't they want as many people using it as possible?

[EmmyJay]

Wow! Can I ask if she got any actual medical or professional help there? Or was it all god and the bible?

I don't think she did. From what I gather the dangerous part (withdrawing from drugs) happened while she was in jail. Which is probably a good thing, since jails know how to deal with that.

[mango_fandango]

Slight derailment here, but I did not expect to find a copy of People magazine in my local branch of WHSmith (stationery shop that also sells sweets, papers, books etc- the kind of place you find at large train stations and airports etc). It had the picture of Jill and Jessa on the front. My initial thought was "oh no, not those two" but then later I mused on how many people would actually know who they are. Certainly not many in the US (comparatively speaking) and so far fewer in the UK. I can partly thank FJ for teaching me not just about fundies but about American culture in general. I'm always interested to find out more about the US so anything I can find I read. :)

Back to topic: as others have said, I have no idea what Anna and the M kids will be doing for money. If JoshyBoy is stuck in rehab for six months, how is he going to earn money? I've not read through these threads as they're long and grow fast- are Anna and co living at the TTH?

[DaisyD]

Several thoughts here. RU probably runs around finding some sin committed during "treatment" of those who relapse to say they didn't complete the program, thus giving them a higher average of success for people who did complete it.

I was mulling over the whole forgiveness vs. real consequences thing the other day while watching "Bones". Then Booth totally cleared the whole thing up when he put his had on a priest's shoulder and said "It's time to render unto Caesar". To bad the Duggars et al. only believe that which is convenient. Otherwise this would be a good way to explain to them how they've fucked up with Josh.

Edited for riffles

[Themiscyran]

Insert typical newbie/first post disclaimer here ^_^

Since Josh was sent to RU my personal fb exploded. Apparently one of my high school friends went there to get over her heroin addiction. Everyone was asking about it and it explained why she sounds brainwashed. I'm incredulous as to how this is going to help anyone since it seems to be one very, very long Bible Brainwashing Camp.

I'm sorry your friend went through that. :( Did it help at all? Doesn't sound like it.

Do you know if it was court-mandated? I hate to think of someone being ordered to go to Bible-washing Camp as a condition for reduced sentencing or whatever.

[justbecause]

I just posted this in the general discussion thread but thought it interesting enough to repost here since it's about adoption and Bessa's 20 kids (maybe).

Oh geez.

A site just posted about Bessa being at that women's conference yesterday and some of the questions they got from the audience and responded to and if the site is right, Bessa wouldn't mind having 20 kids and is currently taking a class so they can adopt children, hopefully some time next year.

I guess she's not planning an 'escape' from crazy town.

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/jessa-duggar-ben-seewald-speak-southern-womens-world-convention-babies-adoption/

I had such hopes for her running fast, guess not. Carrying on such traditions and then still wanting to adopt children. I don't get it.

[Themiscyran]

Several thoughts here. RUNNING probably runs around finding some sin committed during "treatment" of those who relapse to say they didn't complete the program, thus giving them a higher average of success for people who did complete it.

I was mulling over the whole forgiveness vs. real consequences thing the other day while watching "Bones". Then Booth totally cleared the whole thing up when he put his had on a priest's shoulder and said "It's time to render unto Caesar". To bad the Duggars et al. only believe that which is convenient. Otherwise this would be a good way to explain to them how they've fucked up with Josh.

A. That sounds about right, especially if they closely contorl who can say the actually went through RU (my post above) as opposed to used their materials. I still haven't found anyplace that they explain the methodology for their stats.

B. Yeah, there's a whoooooole lotta difference between getting "good with God" and "paying your debt to society." Of course, if the Duggars get their way we'll all be living in a theocracy where there IS no difference...terrifying thought! :pink-shock: :penguin-no:

[chaotic life]

Well thankfully, they can't adopt next year except MAYBE private adoption through an attorney that would cost a fortune. He isn't even old enough to adopt domestically and neither of them are old enough to sponsor an orphan visa to adopt internationally. They would need to wait a year after baby is born without being pregnant again and the shortest length of marriage requirement I've even seen is 3 years.

Doesn't mean they won't eventually collect children that way, but they won't be doing it next year.

[Lizzybet]

Got it. I hadn't picked up that some Catholics had been taught Hell is literal. I grew up in the Northeast around a lot of "social justice" Catholics, so I just assumed all Catholics were taught hell as metaphor.

I attended Catholic schools and was raised in the NY metro area. I think it depended, a LOT, upon the background of one's parents (also, neighborhood, ethnicity, how recently immigrated, education, etc.).

I remember, very clearly, a nun telling us the Bible should not be taken literally, and that the greatest pain for human beings was that of separation from God, especially that virtue was its own reward.

Wrongdoing was often referred to as 'the pain of sin'.

[VixenToast]

I just posted this in the general discussion thread but thought it interesting enough to repost here since it's about adoption and Bessa's 20 kids (maybe).

Oh geez.

A site just posted about Bessa being at that women's conference yesterday and some of the questions they got from the audience and responded to and if the site is right, Bessa wouldn't mind having 20 kids and is currently taking a class so they can adopt children, hopefully some time next year.

I guess she's not planning an 'escape' from crazy town.

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/j ... -adoption/

I had such hopes for her running fast, guess not. Carrying on such traditions and then still wanting to adopt children. I don't get it.

Why did you post it in this thread? There is a thread for Benessa Lol.

[EmmyJay]

I'm sorry your friend went through that. :( Did it help at all? Doesn't sound like it.

Do you know if it was court-mandated? I hate to think of someone being ordered to go to Bible-washing Camp as a condition for reduced sentencing or whatever.

I don't think it was mandated by the court. I think she just had to serve a jail sentence and then decided to go there for herself.

I can't see this place working out for Josh. I wish he could get real help instead. Granted it also seems to me like they replace your addiction with an addiction to God. I don't think being addicted to anything is healthy.

[MakeItSo]

two things (now that I'm caught up again with this thread)

1)I actually thought Blessa's dress and sandals looked really good on her. Like another poster said, she IS pregnant and so this was probably very comfortable for her to wear.

2) I just remembered all the "safeguards" they started in their home after the first time Smuggar did things he shouldn't have and how they basically expected all the other boys in the home to do the same thing...I wonder if now after the second scandal, the internet is completely off limits now to ALL the children (incl. adult children) still in the home...and whatever other "safeguards" they could think off to cage their kids in even more to prevent them from turning out like Smuggar.

I think overall treating all kids the same (segregated by jinder, of course) in general is problematic. they have to be treated/parented as individuals. What worked for my siblings may not have worked for me and vice versa. But I guess by kid 10, you're not running a family anymore but a busniess/factory.

but hey, what do I know? :shrug:

[gilora]

RU's "success" rate? I think they just made that shit up.

[Themiscyran]

RU's "success" rate? I think they just made that shit up.

Well, yeah, obviously I don't think it's legit. But I suspect they have some kind of bogus counting method or fundie "study." Maybe one of the crackerjack journos who read FJ could perform a useful service and investigate that little claim.

Because if they don't even have some kind of BS study to support their claim, then that should out in the open. Addiction treatment is really difficult for any method, and it's absurd and disgusting for them to be taking all kinds of $$$ based on "shit we just made up." :liar:

Most of their clients are not Josh Duggar; I'm sure most of the people they are exploiting are extremely vulnerable. They might be choosing better treatment options if more sunshine was let in on these bozos.

[MoonFace]

RU's "success" rate? I think they just made that shit up.

What is considered 'success"? That they never do it again? That they don't get caught?

[mebeforee]

This was being talked about a page or so ago, but JB and Michelle definitely 'saved themselves' for marriage. They've mentioned that when questioned about courtship in the past, and I'm guessing that's one of the main reasons they got married so young (Michelle wasn't even 18 yet at the time). They have, though, expressed a desire to have gone through a courtship modeled relationship and JB has said they went 'farther than they should' (probably making out and dry humping. you know, a normal teen relationship...) I'd say most of Michelle's regret is fueled by JB's clear disapproval of her having dated before him. Honestly, it would not surprise me in the least if JB did some stalking-type behaviors before they dated. Michelle has said she doesn't remember their first meeting, while JB clearly does, and talks about how when he saw her he was instantly smitten and thought she was the most beautiful blah blah blah, and finally asked her out when she was working at his mom's store. He also said he thought she only agreed because he was the boss's son. So maybe their whole relationship really started out as a creepy manipulation. It would explain where his children would've learned that manipulative behavior from, since Michelle displays about as much original thought as a Furby.

It doesn't surprise me that Jessa and Ben refused to answer questions about Josh, and I don't think they should have to. His actions are not theirs and they aren't obligated to defend him or condemn him for it. They shouldn't have even done it for the molestations, because they couldn't be sure they were speaking for everyone. But I'm guessing that the parents organized that to happen, while keeping Jinger and Joy (who might not have stayed so fully on-point as Jill and Jessa) from participating. Either way, they all must be aware how that backfired and I think it's smart that they chose not to discuss it, and I think it's crazy for people to expect Jessa or her husband to answer for Josh's bullshit. (I also don't see the issue with her dress. She looks good - very comfortable, and as beautiful as ever. Doesn't make her a person I want to support because I disagree with her on practically every issue she has ever addressed, but I don't see a problem with her clothing or appearance.)

Do we think we'll see JB and Michelle or Anna visit Josh once they're allowed to? We should keep an eye on the Duggar plane - it correctly predicted where Josh was going so hopefully we'll see any family visits that might happen, too. I don't see him dropping out of the program early or anything because I have a sense that this treatment was made a condition for him to return to the warm embrace of family, either from Anna or from his parents. He's totally dependent on them now because he's not going to be able to find employment in the kind of jobs he's had before - nobody in his community is going to buy a used car from him because he has made himself untrustworthy, and no political career will be possible because he's shattered his reputation. Maybe he could become an employee of the treatment center :?

[Themiscyran]

What is considered 'success"? That they never do it again? That they don't get caught?

Yeah, that's one of the things I want to know about their "method." Considering that it's clearly an evangelizing conversion drive rather than real treatment, and they're diagnosing sins rather than mental illnesses, what do they do? Count church attendance?

[happy atheist]

I just thought I'd pop in here and let everyone know that the post count title cheat sheet is up to date. I added explanations for the 25 new additions. Let me know if I missed any.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15682

[FundieFarmer]

Thanks, HA! This is awesome!

[refugee]

My ATI acquaintances are saying Josh and the Duggars have been singled out because out of the millions of names in the hack, only a few (I've heard of 3) celebrities have been named, and all of them conservatives.

After hearing this, I was curious and I went looking, and it looks as if they might be right, at least about the number of celebrity names released.

Does this mean Josh Duggar and those other couple of people are the most well-known figures in the database? Is that possible? Or is it possible that there's some sort of damage control and cover-up going on, and Duggar just had the bad luck to have his name released before the cover-up process started.

Don't mind me. I've just finished a glass of wine and am not 100% here, having no head for alcohol.

[PregnantPornStar]

Yeah, that's one of the things I want to know about their "method." Considering that it's clearly an evangelizing conversion drive rather than real treatment, and they're diagnosing sins rather than mental illnesses, what do they do? Count church attendance?

I am wondering the same thing? What method are they using and what kind of training do these people providing "treatment" have? I was looking over staff bios and it doesn't seem that any have degrees that would provide anything in the way of counseling.(I realize I am not the first to do this.) I keep thinking of a book I read years ago called Jesus Land. I always find faith based counseling treatment centers to be sketchy....

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I attended Catholic schools and was raised in the NY metro area. I think it depended, a LOT, upon the background of one's parents (also, neighborhood, ethnicity, how recently immigrated, education, etc.).

I remember, very clearly, a nun telling us the Bible should not be taken literally, and that the greatest pain for human beings was that of separation from God, especially that virtue was its own reward.

Wrongdoing was often referred to as 'the pain of sin'.

I'm one of those Catholics who was taught that hell is a literal place, and this was in the 80's. My childhood priest was very much a hellfire and damnation kind of priest, and so was my religion teacher. When I was 8, my religion teacher told me that unfortunately I'm illegitimate and my parents would go to hell because they were "living in sin." My dad's Catholic, my mom was Lutheran. When they got married in the early 70's, FIVE YEARS before I was born, a church wedding would've been very complicated, so they only had a civil one. But still, this bitter old woman found it appropriate to tell a very, VERY Catholic little girl her parents were going to hell. Sometimes I do wonder why I'm still in the church. :shifty-kitty:

[happy atheist]

My ATI acquaintances are saying Josh and the Duggars have been singled out because out of the millions of names in the hack, only a few (I've heard of 3) celebrities have been named, and all of them conservatives.

After hearing this, I was curious and I went looking, and it looks as if they might be right, at least about the number of celebrity names released.

Does this mean Josh Duggar and those other couple of people are the most well-known figures in the database? Is that possible? Or is it possible that there's some sort of damage control and cover-up going on, and Duggar just had the bad luck to have his name released before the cover-up process started.

Don't mind me. I've just finished a glass of wine and am not 100% here, having no head for alcohol.

There could be tons of famous people in there who were smart enough to cover their tracks better, ie use credit cards and addresses that can't be tied to their names.

[laundry]

My ATI acquaintances are saying Josh and the Duggars have been singled out because out of the millions of names in the hack, only a few (I've heard of 3) celebrities have been named, and all of them conservatives.

After hearing this, I was curious and I went looking, and it looks as if they might be right, at least about the number of celebrity names released.

Does this mean Josh Duggar and those other couple of people are the most well-known figures in the database? Is that possible? Or is it possible that there's some sort of damage control and cover-up going on, and Duggar just had the bad luck to have his name released before the cover-up process started.

Don't mind me. I've just finished a glass of wine and am not 100% here, having no head for alcohol.

I don't know what names are in that database, but I doubt Josh is the most well-known. To put it like this: he wouldn't have been singled out if he devoted his life to live in sin and used every opportunity to tell people how wrong it is to be married without having an affair, or God forbid be straight.

Edit: To clearify that I meant I think Josh would've been revealed anyway, whether there is a cover up of some sort or not. And I agree with that others probably have been more carefull with what information could be tied to them.