Joshley Madison Part 6 - Sin, Confess, Repeat

[Themiscyran]

So the "all sins are equal" idea is to remind us that it's not our fellow beings we should feel bad about wronging, but God. Have I got that right? Whether I molest a child or whether I lust over Idris Elba, who is not my spouse, either way I'm disrespecting God, and that's all that matters?

The idea that sin is primarily about one's relationship with God isn't unique to fundies, or to people espousing the "all sins are equal"idea. I grew up in a conservative Anglican church (that's Church of England/Episcopalian--no longer identify with the conservative side at ALL) and attended Roman Catholic schools. Both places I learned that sin is something that separates one from God. Sin isn't so much a single action as a state of being. There are things that separate you more from God in a serious way (mortal sin) and those that separate you in smaller ways (venial). Most of the mortal sins are ones that also hurt your fellow humans a lot, although that's not 100%. Now, we also learned that all humans are sinners and sinful--but that actually wasn't presented in such a way as to make you feel terrible about yourself. More to acknowledge that all humans are somewhat separated from God. To fix the relationship with God, you needed to confess and repent.

Now, Anglicans have a general confession in their service but, as I said, I grew up in a very conservative high Church branch so we were also supposed to do private confession with a clergyman, like Roman Catholics do. Usually, as part of that confession, we'd be assigned a "penance," something to demonstrate our repentence. In my experience, if the sin involved hurting a fellow human being, the clergyman (and they were all men in my church!) would assign as part of the penance something to make it "right" or do better. but the other person wasn't under and pressure to forgive you, because (a) the forgiveness came from God and (b) your confessions of sin were basically private and not something the whole community knew about. Of course, this practice could also be totally abused if the clergyman were more interested in berating the confessing person or making them feel bad or whatever, rather than acknowledging the social aspects of the sin.

When I moved to Arkansas and started interacting with a lot of fundamentalists, it was very strange (to me) the emphasis on public confession and the community "forgiving" the person. I had a student who became pregnant out of wedlock and was required to "confess" to her whole church and then they "forgave" her. I found that really hard to understand, but for her and her community, any sin against God was also a rebuke to the entire church because they were living in a covenant together. She was able to push back somewhat, however, because her church at first did not require her boyfriend the "father" to confess anything. but hey, weren't there sins equal? The all-male leadership didn't like that too much but eventually bowed to pressure.

My point in all of this is that really, almost any doctrine or practice about sin can be twisted around so that the real hurts to other human beings are ignored, excused, or whatever. The pressure to publicly "forgive" someone can cover up the fact that the hurt is still there and its underlying causes aren't addressed. Saying all sins are equal can be a reason to minimize harm...or, it can actually be used to fight the hypocrisy of the way sexual issues are treated in churches. Private confessions can actually reduce the pressure for that "forgiveness" from victims...or they can be used to make the sinner feel terrible in an unaccountable way. Whether the teaching is "all sins or equal" or there's some kind of mortal/venial type distinction, a lot depends on the interpretation and whether there's already an underlying assumption of patriarchy and culture of abuse.

[JenniferJuniper]

as far as sins go,

In the Methodist Church I grew up in we were taught all sins are equal and once Christ enters your life,you must prayerfully acknowledge sins but it can be done in private.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, during a face-to-face confession (God, that was far worse than the confessional) when I was 10, a Catholic priest told me that all sins were not equal. Hurting another person was far worse than swearing, or swiping a cookie when mother's back was turned, or not sharing a toy. Hence the adjustment in the number of Hail Marys and Our Fathers one was required say.

[lizbeth]

That clip of Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh crying that's showing up on some articles is just a clip from a 19KAC episode, right? It's not actual footage of them dropping him off at ~rehab~ like the sites are trying to insinuate to get hits, yes?

[tlcarlaw]

Well, the only part of her post that I found interesting was the part about the Duggars in Church. First of all, I thought they didn't really go to a real church. So, if this post is telling the truth, then that must mean that she is fairly close to the Duggars and attends their Home church. I get the impression that the home church is a small group of people in general.

So to me, if this post is legit, this is info coming from someone in the inner circle.

Also telling to me, again if true, is that the church story is confirmation that Jimbob had no idea of the Ashley Madison/porn star scandal. I think he really believed the worst was behind them.

Now we all assume there are more skeletons to be found, but it is possible that from JB and M's perspectives, there are no more. I think most of the other info out there is probably stuff that Michelle and Jimbob would justify, and they would not have insight as to why others would consider it a bad thing. Just like they eagerly told the world that Michelle hands off the kids to a sibling after weaning or how she admitted that for the past several years, Jessa has been in charge of the Homeschooling. Normal people hear that and instantly realize how terrible that is. But I think Michelle genuinely doesn't have insight that those admissions reveal her poor parenting decisions.

Posting pictures of the little kids playing with guns laying on the ground next to them, again, normal people, including gun enthusiasts, see that and realize that is a bad idea, But the Duggars just don't seem to realize they are revealing more poor parenting.

The Duggars were at the Bates church. That was the day after Michael and Brandon's wedding. There are pictures somewhere of the entire Duggar family including Josh standing up at the front of the church service with Josh holding Marcus. This person must be a friend or family member of the Bates or Keilan family.

[JesusPony]

Jessa and her teenage groom offer their brilliant advice: "trust god"

thanks, thats real helpful Benessa

http://www.people.com/article/jessa-dug ... sh-scandal

Can these people say anything else about this? I realize that this is a complex issue that is hard to discuss, but that would make me want to avoid stupid comments all the more. Everything out of their mouth is God God God. Rehab is nothing but God. Avoid the situation through God. Feel better through God. No wonder Josh ended up so messed up. How can you live so narrowly.

Shut up, Benessa! Believe me, you're not interesting enough to have your own TV show.

Bin is allowed internet access to read the news, eh? I bet Jessa looks over his shoulder the whole time.

[ClaraOswin]

That clip of Michelle, Jim Bob, and Josh crying that's showing up on some articles is just a clip from a 19KAC episode, right? It's not actual footage of them dropping him off at ~rehab~ like the sites are trying to insinuate to get hits, yes?

Link?

[Artemesia]

Shut up, Benessa! Believe me, you're not interesting enough to have your own TV show.

Bin is allowed internet access to read the news, eh? I bet Jessa looks over his shoulder the whole time.

I would think the demon internet would present more opportunity to sin than a television. But I suppose his headship decided that it was OK.

[FJismyheadship]

Looks to me like it was created by a semi-literate, attention-seeking arsehole who is way too invested in the Duggars for their own good. :lol:

Could be. Guess we will never know who did it unless they post here and tell us they did it, will we?

[gemma]

On the opposite end of the spectrum, during a face-to-face confession (God, that was far worse than the confessional) when I was 10, a Catholic priest told me that all sins were not equal. Hurting another person was far worse than swearing, or swiping a cookie when mother's back was turned, or not sharing a toy. Hence the adjustment in the number of Hail Marys and Our Fathers one was required say.

You are jogging my memory now.....I can remember a face to face confession where, after I confessed my sins, the priest asked me which one I thought was the worst. I answered honestly, but I think my penance was still the same for each sin. I can't remember that for sure, but he definitely implied some sins are worse than others. I believe we discussed that one sin further.

[Odd1Out]

So Jim Bob just loves to talk about other people's sins doesn't he? He still talks about Michelle's 'sins' of dating and mowing in a bikini and now stands up in church to talk about Josh's molestation sin. Not that Josh deserves for that to just be forgotten but you just wonder how often he guilts the kids by constantly bringing up their past faults.

[FundieFarmer]

Frankly, I'd love to hear about some of Jim Bob's sins. Nobody's as squeaky clean as he's making himself out to be with his distraction tactic of focusing on everyone else's sins.

[OodOnTheLoo]

Shut up, Benessa! Believe me, you're not interesting enough to have your own TV show.

Bin is allowed internet access to read the news, eh? I bet Jessa looks over his shoulder the whole time.

News? You mean FreeJinger?

[MarsGirl]

Jessa is really annoying.

[ClaraOswin]

So Jim Bob just loves to talk about other people's sins doesn't he? He still talks about Michelle's 'sins' of dating and mowing in a bikini and now stands up in church to talk about Josh's molestation sin. Not that Josh deserves for that to just be forgotten but you just wonder how often he guilts the kids by constantly bringing up their past faults.

I'm pretty sure guilt and shame are big in their household. It's sick.

[busdrivingmom]

I am Catholic and we are taught all sin is bad but they are not equal. For example, stealing a cookie is a lesser sin than murdering someone. Yes we have to confess and do penance and ask the person we wronged for forgiveness. But there are things the Duggars percieve as sin, that really are not. We do not view dating, or wearing pants or not "keeping sweet" as sins . These people are so obsessed with appearing to be good Christians it makes me sick.

[gemma]

Frankly, I'd love to hear about some of Jim Bob's sins. Nobody's as squeaky clean as he's making himself out to be with his distraction tactic of focusing on everyone else's sins.

I'm trying to remember what I've read in the past. He thinks it was wrong to kiss his wife before marriage....I don't know if he thinks he's confessing to some kind of sin there. He considers their past birth control use a sin. He's acknowledged some wrongdoing in his books, chalked up to bad judgment. That's about it. Not that I expect him to fully divulge all he's done in his life, but they do an awful lot of preaching about others. I still don't think they realize that this is what has gotten them in some much trouble with the public. They keep saying they are persecuted, but they don't seem to realize that the reason Josh's admissions have been met with such a strong reaction partly has to do with this squeaky clean image they've always put forth.

[lizbeth]

Link?

rawstory.com/2015/08/furious-family-members-lash-at-josh-duggar-i-hope-he-gets-broken-in-rehab/

[lizzybee]

rawstory.com/2015/08/furious-family-members-lash-at-josh-duggar-i-hope-he-gets-broken-in-rehab/

I'm pretty sure that's from the episode when they moved to D.C. and everyone was crying before leaving them there.

[ClaraOswin]

Yep...definitely from the episode where they move to D.C.

[DeFrauder]

I started CCD classes as a first grader in the late 60's. No literal hell was ever taught.

Maybe a post Vatican II thing? I left the church as soon as I was old enough (although I know it can still claim me), but I can say all of the stuff they tried to teach me was pretty mild. (Aside from the anti-abortion stuff that was totally over-the-top after Roe v. Wade.) And I can't recall even having to read from a Bible.

The bible gets read during Mass. If you go to Mass once per week for the whole year (like a good Catholic should :-P), then apparently you cover the entire bible.

The RCC does not encourage "creative independent interpretation" (this is a phrase I just made up) of the bible like many Protestant denominations do. For example, they like to view the book of Revelation as an account of the fall of Rome--not as a prophesy about the end of the world that is going to happen any day now.

Instead, they prefer to leave biblical interpretation to committees made up of people with advanced degrees in biblical studies and theology. That is where the fundie idea that Catholics are not allowed to read the bible for themselves comes from. A rumor that is NOT TRUE btw. The Church often gives a bible to the newly confirmed members as a gift---I don't think they would do that if they didn't allow people to read it.

They just want people to read it in the context that a lot of work has been put into interpretation, already. But I guess Cletus with his grade 4 education is qualified to interpret the bible, too.

[withaj]

I'm pretty sure that's from the episode when they moved to D.C. and everyone was crying before leaving them there.

Yep, that's what I thought. Though god knows they'd be THRILLED if someone had approached them for new footage, regardless of their current circumstances.

[YoshiCat]

The Duggars were at the Bates church. That was the day after Michael and Brandon's wedding. There are pictures somewhere of the entire Duggar family including Josh standing up at the front of the church service with Josh holding Marcus. This person must be a friend or family member of the Bates or Keilan family.

And the blog post starts:

I went to church with the Duggars the Sunday before this latest scandal broke loose. At church, the pastor invited the whole Duggar family to come up, sing a song, and share their testimony.

I sat there and listened to Jim Bob as he praised his son, Josh. He went on about how he was and is a changed man. He went on about how Josh is a great godly man, who no longer struggles with this sin. And Josh stood there, nodding his head in agreement as he held one of his children.

So this was after the news about the Ashley Madison hack but before Josh was identified as an Ashley Madison customer. That leaves two possibilities: either he didn't know that Ashley Madison had been hacked or he knew about the hack but thought he couldn't be named.

So was Josh unaware of the Ashley Madison hack? I know they like to keep themselves isolated. Does this mean Josh doesn't read/watch the news at all? If was a big story even before any names were revealed.

Or did he know about the hack but think he couldn't be discovered because he used a fake name? Would he really not have any idea that a data hack would include credit card info?

I have to think he didn't know about the hack at all. If he did, he must have at least entertained the possibility that he could be outed. I would think he'd be following the story and know that users were going to be identified. He's not a good enough actor to sit calmly, nodding along, if he had any inkling of what could happen.

[doggie]

fool me once shame on you food me twice makes you christian I guess.

[Arete]

Jennifer Juniper,

No, it's not a post Vatican II thing. The Greek Orthodox have never believed in Hell as a literal place. Like Catholicism, they teach that Hell is the absence of the spirit of God. All sin is also not equal. You need to do a lot more worrying if you killed someone than if you called them a twat.

[gemma]

And the blog post starts:

So this was after the news about the Ashley Madison hack but before Josh was identified as an Ashley Madison customer. That leaves two possibilities: either he didn't know that Ashley Madison had been hacked or he knew about the hack but thought he couldn't be named.

So was Josh unaware of the Ashley Madison hack? I know they like to keep themselves isolated. Does this mean Josh doesn't read/watch the news at all? If was a big story even before any names were revealed.

Or did he know about the hack but think he couldn't be discovered because he used a fake name? Would he really not have any idea that a data hack would include credit card info?

I have to think he didn't know about the hack at all. If he did, he must have at least entertained the possibility that he could be outed. I would think he'd be following the story and know that users were going to be identified. He's not a good enough actor to sit calmly, nodding along, if he had any inkling of what could happen.

Whether he knew about the hack or not, he impresses me as being arrogant enough to think he'd never be caught, hence the nodding along.