Joshley Madison Part 6 - Sin, Confess, Repeat

[DeFrauder]

I cannot believe that that is actually legal. (And I am not doubting you when you say it is; I am just saying tht's fucked up. Why should the public subsidize bullshit fake Jesus camps?)

As for the second part of your post: Nope, that wasn't me. No confusion about that on my part.

Remember George W Bush and his "Faith-based" initiatives? That was all about giving tax dollars to Jesus camps to take care of social problems. It is a method of privatizing social services, which has been on the agenda since Reagan.

[roddma]

I think sin and forgiveness is a slippery slope in religion. It makes it all too easy to just sweep things under the rug and for perpetrators to repeat the acts. As I explain to Duggar humpers, while wrongs may be forgiven you still have to deal with consequences of action.

And I truly believe a person must be willing to change and not just admit wrongs when they get caught and expect instant forgiveness. Josh only admitted wrong when he got caught.

Im not sure what to think about this 'Open Letter to Anna". Everyone wants what's best for Anna and the kids, but Anna isn't given choices.Some parts of this article just rubbed me the wrong way.I saw no reason to break link.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpres ... na-duggar/

[VTSleeper]

The North Love Church posts videos of the Friday Night RU meetings. Presumably Josh would have attended this meeting.

[Kayel]

I think sin and forgiveness is a slippery slope in religion. It makes it all too easy to just sweep things under the rug and for perpetrators to repeat the acts. As I explain to Duggar humpers, while wrongs may be forgiven you still have to deal with consequences of action.

And I truly believe a person must be willing to change and not just admit wrongs when they get caught and expect instant forgiveness. Josh only admitted wrong when he got caught.

Im not sure what to think about this 'Open Letter to Anna". Everyone wants what's best for Anna and the kids, but Anna isn't given choices.Some parts of this article just rubbed me the wrong way.I saw no reason to break link.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpres ... na-duggar/

This. I see three major problems with sin and forgiveness in a religious sense (talking about what we see with the Duggars).

1. The church over state law issue. The eternal consequences might for a religious person (I am not, so this is no generalization. A lot of my loved ones are religious and well capable of doing the separation.) outweigh anything else. I see that, but the immediate consequences need to be considered as well. There is a reason why we have them. You would think their blanket training would burn it into their poor brains that there are worldly consequences... :cry:

2. Forcing forgiveness. There is no "I don't forgive you". Not even for god it appears. (Most annoying thing to me: Everybody seem to know when god forgives. It is not for them to decide...) So, you know before and while sinning, that it'll all go away in just a little bit.

3. No way of knowing if someone has changed. If you judge people by their religious talking and not by their actions you will never know if they changed. For these people it appears to me that the most important thing is the heart (with all its non-anatomic pieces). You cannot know if he had a "change of heart". But then again, it's about believing not knowing...

___

On a personal note: I have to clarify that I grew up what people would call somewhat fundi, but my parents never enforces believes onto us. That is probably why all my older brothers and I left the church at age 14 (by law allowed to decide your religion in Germany). Yet, the brain-washing bits remain and whenever I talk about believe and god I feel like it shows that there are believes I don't stand for burned into my brain. So, sorry for any arising inconsistencies.

Edit to clarify that I do not mean to generalize here.

[DrunkOnBreasts]

It will be interesting to see if the church continues to post the meetings. If so, I can't wait to hear Josh "repent".

[Whoosh]

The North Love Church posts videos of the Friday Night RU meetings. Presumably Josh would have attended this meeting.

I think it is interesting and cool that you found this and yet...

Maybe it is just my own brainwashing and as I have said I am not a huge fan of the 12 step programs, but one of the A's stands for ANONYMOUS. I totally get that this program has nothing to do with the 12 step recovery programs, but filming a recovery meeting (particularly a residential recovery meeting) just seems beyond creepy and invasive to me.

I am pretty excited to watch it :?

[Special friend]

I agree that labeling this as "addiction" gives Josh an out to....well, to get out and away, while misguided Anna has to suffer the consequences. Twisted.

However, the "fundie theology" comment is not quite accurate. Sin not being weighed as "greater" or "lesser" is not fundie theology. It is the belief of Christians in *general*, that God does not look upon one sin as greater or less than another. ALL sin grieves the heart of God, and the way of reconciliation is always the same, -through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and His complete work on the cross. We were not born IN sin but with a sin nature, and it's not that there isn't "a way out", but rather that there is no human effort great enough to reconcile us to God (we cannot *earn* our way to heaven), thus He provided the sinless, blameless sacrifice in His Son, Jesus.

I'm sure the comment was intended to be informative and contributory, but as a mainstream Christian, I think it's very important we don't confuse mainstream tenets of the Christian faith with warped fundamentalist legalistic takes on Christianity.

This might be true for your denomination, but it is definitely not true for "Christians in general". And honestly, I do think that this particular belief *could* have very harmful consequences. I have seen it happen in real life.

There are definitely differences in sin (in my denomination) and while people from my denomination would agree that all sin grieves the heart of God, they would also state very clearly that God DOES look upon one sin as greater or less than another. If that were not the case, God would not consider / feel with the person sinned against, IMO. But he clearly does.

For the person who was sinned against, it is a huge difference if he was told a lie or if he was murdered, for example. For God to view both of these as equally "bad" would mean that he does not care about what happened to his child who was sinned against. I just don´t think that is true of God at all. (Whether that child is Bhuddist, Muslim, atheist, or fundie, every human is his child - He cares equally about every single person, IMO.)

[sockinshoe]

See, this is where I get confused, if we are all equal because we all sin, then why are they so holier than thou? shouldn't they be more humble towards the public instead of damning everyone who doesn't believe as they do? They expect us to just forgive and forget what Josh did because God, but when it comes to gay marriage and everything else, unbelievers are a lost cause. Whatever happened to "Forgive them, for they know not what they do"?

To your first question, I think the Duggars/fundies believe that only they have realised how sin/redemption works. They're better than us because they " understand" the rules. They also seem to believe that unless we live like they do, we haven't truly accepted Jesus into our hearts, and thus are doomed to eternal hellfire.

[sockinshoe]

I don't know if the teaching has changed in the forty years since I left the RCC, but we were definitely taught that there were greater and lesser sins - mortal and venial. Murder would be a mortal sin, deception a venial sin.If you died in a state of mortal sin, it was very bad........

I left the rcc about a year ago. Nothing has changed. Dying in a state of (mortal) sin would send you to hell.

[LurkerOverThePond]

I believe she was a self-admitted curmudgeonly "old" woman.

Yeah. If my memory serves me right her name was "experienced". She was a cool lady. Miss her and her frequent references to smoking pot and having fun ;)

[SinConfessRepeat]

Wow. It's really strange to see a thread title with my user name. I know they came from the same source but it's still really odd.

[VTSleeper]

I think it is interesting and cool that you found this and yet...

Maybe it is just my own brainwashing and as I have said I am not a huge fan of the 12 step programs, but one of the A's stands for ANONYMOUS. I totally get that this program has nothing to do with the 12 step recovery programs, but filming a recovery meeting (particularly a residential recovery meeting) just seems beyond creepy and invasive to me.

I am pretty excited to watch it :?

As best as I can tell, RU is definitely NOT anonymous. I watched some of the live stream of last night's meeting, and it's clear to me that they want each participant to "testify" as much as possible to whomever they meet, including co-workers when they are placed in jobs at secular organizations. In other words, they want lots of free marketing.

[VTSleeper]

The video of the meeting that took place two Friday's ago had lots of close ups during the time when participants gave "testimony" to God.

Last night's meeting had no close ups at all.

Coincidence?

[helenprev]

I may be technically challenged but the most recent videoed meeting I can find is from 7 days ago - where is the one from last night? Have they pulled it or am I just dense? :embarrassed:

[VTSleeper]

I may be technically challenged but the most recent videoed meeting I can find is from 7 days ago - where is the one from last night? Have they pulled it or am I just dense? :embarrassed:

I watched the live feed. It probably hasn't been posted yet.

[Artemesia]

In fundie theology, all sins are ultimately equal in God's eyes because *any* sin means no heaven and we're born in sin, so there's no escape (hence Jesus had to die to pay for our sins). All sins have the same treatment (ask God for forgiveness) and outcome (he forgives).

So tiny sins (showing your ankles) are magnified, and big sins (adultery) are minimized - or at the very least, the fundie comeback is we shouldn't judge because we're all sinners.

My thoughts are that as all this tripe is being hammered into Josh at the treatment centre, where does Anna fit in? If I horribly hurt someone I loved in a moment of weakness, my only concern would be how I made them feel and how to fix it. Instead, Josh's priority is to cut himself off from Anna and pray. Labeling it an addiction is just a way to avoid having to truly *feel* the consequences of what he's done.

I find it telling that the initial statement blamed the devil and then this was removed. The Duggars have always had to tread a fine line when it comes to satisfying their fundie fans who would nod their heads sagely at the devil reference, and appealing to the general public who indirectly fund(ed) their lifestyle and would roll their eyes at "the devil made me do it!" excuses.

Yes, it seems to me that this lack of a hierarchy of sin leads to an escalation in wrong behavior. I think Josh was so traumatized at the reaction when he was caught with porn during the "sin in the camp" incident that when he resumed looking at porn as an adult he felt like a total sinner and he didn't realize that progressing to cheating on his wife was much worse behavior.

[helenprev]

I watched the live feed. It probably hasn't been posted yet.

Aha! Thanks :D

[Artemesia]

I think it is interesting and cool that you found this and yet...

Maybe it is just my own brainwashing and as I have said I am not a huge fan of the 12 step programs, but one of the A's stands for ANONYMOUS. I totally get that this program has nothing to do with the 12 step recovery programs, but filming a recovery meeting (particularly a residential recovery meeting) just seems beyond creepy and invasive to me.

I am pretty excited to watch it :?

And certainly a HIPAA violation.

[Rachel333]

I watched the Bill Maher episode. I liked hearing him call out Josh Duggar, but was I the only one kind of bothered by where he took it? He said it's great that society now accepts gay and transgender people (he even showed a picture of Caitlyn Jenner and referenced her genitals), "but what about the other 95% of us?" Maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but I don't think the problem is that people aren't accepting enough of straight sexuality. In Josh's case, sure, it would have been better if he hadn't been forced from the beginning into a narrow definition of acceptable sexuality, but why compare it to gay and transgender people like they're the ones who have the advantage here? In the Duggar world being gay or trans (which isn't even about sexuality, it's about gender) would definitely be worse than what Josh did, and even in the secular world I think it would have been a bigger story if Josh had been engaging in homosexual affairs. No one would really care about what he did anyway if he hadn't been so vocal before about his "pro-family" values. Most would find it wrong that he cheated, but otherwise it would have been pretty unexceptional.

Plus, ignoring Josh, I think most gay and trans people (especially the trans people in the US being murdered for being trans) would disagree that being gay or trans is more accepted than having some nonstandard heterosexual preferences.

[Sundaymorning]

Regarding the "all sins are equal" theory: not all fundies agree with that. PP, who is about as fundie as you can get, is strongly against it for example. He once preached a whole sermon about it. And even he realizes that stealing a pen at the office is not the same as murdering someone.

He also has some scriptures to back his claims up.

(if you can stand his screeching: youtube.com/watch?v=r6iyytbrMKc)

[FJismyheadship]

S3cr3tl1f3.blogspot.com

Thoughts? Real, fake, belongs to some other random guy who cheats on his spousal unit and has freakishly controlling parents?

Theres only five or six posts spanning from December 2012 to Jan. 2013

[MiddleAgedLady]

S3cr3tl1f3.blogspot.com

Thoughts? Real, fake, belongs to some other random guy who cheats on his spousal unit and has freakishly controlling parents?

Theres only five or six posts spanning from December 2012 to Jan. 2013

Interesting! Trying to check the back side of the blog to see if their is anymore information....

[CrackerbackJocks]

Sin not being weighed as "greater" or "lesser" is not fundie theology. It is the belief of Christians in *general*, that God does not look upon one sin as greater or less than another. ALL sin grieves the heart of God, and the way of reconciliation is always the same, -through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and His complete work on the cross.

What's chapping a lot of hides (including mine) is the Duggars' conflation of sin and crime. At the time of Josh's molestation they unbiblically refused to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's" by treating a matter which required state involvement as sin alone.

The author of the short, outstanding piece at the link makes clear the distinction.

teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/

[Jana814]

I'm DVRing the Bill Mahr episode from yesterday. Can someone tell about when he does this ( beginning middle or end if the show).

[FJismyheadship]

Interesting! Trying to check the back side of the blog to see if their is anymore information....

What's the backside?