John Shrader in Zambia Pt 5: Witnessing, Weeping & Wondering

[Palimpsest]

I pray for Esther and the pregnancy (and I don't mean that in a trite way, I honestly, really do). I think a lot of what John does is misguided, but I do believe Esther is genuinely happy and content. I met them a couple times (do not know them well) during their deputation period.

I'd like to know more too.  If they visited the Fundie Church you were previously involved with (per your Jill R. post) did that church agree to sponsor them or did the congregation side-eye John?

I've always thought that John must be an enthusiastic and charismatic speaker.  I still hold the sponsoring churches responsible for their ignorance and naivety if they agree to fund and enable him.

Esther seems very easy going and placid.  I think it is only a matter of time though until the façade cracks because John's irresponsibility will endanger the children she loves.

[DarkAnts]

John was part of the original Team Zambia. His sending church is still supporting the Rea family and a teacher. The Rea family seems to have it together. They did research on the area, they purchased a used car, they got the work permits before they moved. They know that they will be without power for about 8 hours a day due to load sharing. 

 

I wonder how the Shrader family is coping without electricity. They have many expensive electric appliances including: fridge, ice maker, washer and dryer, printer. 

[Handmaiden of Dog]

And still no plane.....

[SeeSunshine]

So I have to ask, does John come off as a smug asshole in real life like he does online? I feel like he must be more likable irl if he gained support for his extended vacation to Zambia. I personally can't think of one thing John does that isn't selfish and misguided. John looks out for himself and no one else. 

He does come across like a genuine, warm person. He is very passionate about his perceived direction from the Lord. I am trying to word things appropriately, because I have been a long time lurker here, but I don't want y'all to think I'm speaking on behalf of him, because we do not know him well. I was really dismayed at the number of children in the pop up camper, but seeing kids squeezed into nooks and crannies can be par for the course in the fundie world. I have more than your average number of children, and I'm a single mom (divorced from their father), so I don't pass judgement unless I know for sure abuse is happening. I will tell you the children were amazing, personable, warm, and most were outgoing. Some of them seemed more introverted, but the children definitely left an overall positive impression. 

I'd like to know more too.  If they visited the Fundie Church you were previously involved with (per your Jill R. post) did that church agree to sponsor them or did the congregation side-eye John?

I've always thought that John must be an enthusiastic and charismatic speaker.  I still hold the sponsoring churches responsible for their ignorance and naivety if they agree to fund and enable him.

Esther seems very easy going and placid.  I think it is only a matter of time though until the façade cracks because John's irresponsibility will endanger the children she loves.

My former church does still support them. Most independent Baptist churches support a variety of missionaries, and the amount going to each individual missionary is not a massive amount. It takes a lot, in my opinion, for a church to back out of supporting a missionary. I don't know a lot of the details about why his sending church dropped him. I know there was a clash over theology and believing in works-based results, i.e. he wasn't presenting enough "fruit". 
 

[formergothardite]

Thank you for answering. I feel okay judging him for cramming his children into a small pop-up camper, taking pictures while speeding down the road in poor driving conditions and mounting a fan from the roof of his van so it swung directly in front of a small child. For all the "children are a blessing" that fundies spout, so many churches are okay with parents treating their kids like crap. I asked ShraderFriend this and never got a straight answer, maybe you would be willing to answer, but did your church or any church you know of question John on how he was providing his children with a proper education as they traveled and how he was providing and going to provide them  with proper medical care? Did no one google him and see the easy to find pictures where he put his kids and others in danger so he could get a cool looking photo to put on FB? I just remember our church researching missionaries before we threw money at them and this was before the days of internet searches. What is going on in churches today where a guy like John can get support? 

I have been pretty sure that he comes off as very passionate, as a former IFB though, I just can't understand why he gained so much support. The churches I grew up in would have never supported a guy with that many kids, wanting so much expensive stuff up front and with so little of an actual mission plan. David Rea has a hell of a lot better mission plan. It is baffling to me churches supported him.  

[SeeSunshine]

Thank you for answering. I feel okay judging him for cramming his children into a small pop-up camper, taking pictures while speeding down the road in poor driving conditions and mounting a fan from the roof of his van so it swung directly in front of a small child. For all the "children are a blessing" that fundies spout, so many churches are okay with parents treating their kids like crap. I asked ShraderFriend this and never got a straight answer, maybe you would be willing to answer, but did your church or any church you know of question John on how he was providing his children with a proper education as they traveled and how he was providing and going to provide them  with proper medical care? Did no one google him and see the easy to find pictures where he put his kids and others in danger so he could get a cool looking photo to put on FB? I just remember our church researching missionaries before we threw money at them and this was before the days of internet searches. What is going on in churches today where a guy like John can get support? 

I have been pretty sure that he comes off as very passionate, as a former IFB though, I just can't understand why he gained so much support. The churches I grew up in would have never supported a guy with that many kids, wanting so much expensive stuff up front and with so little of an actual mission plan. David Rea has a hell of a lot better mission plan. It is baffling to me churches supported him.  

Your questions are the exact questions I had. I do not believe that there was much research into John. I believe my former church took what he said at face value, was moved by his presentation and sermons, and prayed about the direction my former pastor wanted to go in. I was taken aback at the number of kids in the small pop up camper, and the fact of becoming pregnant on the road (I still get squicked out about that), so I googled, and that is how I found FJ. 

I think since IFB are not regulated much past what the pastor/deacons, that is why he is/was able to get so much support. People truly believe, and he truly believes, he is doing the work of God. 

I agree with you re: the children. I will say a lot of the families I was familiar with did not put education at a forefront, and dismissed education very summarily. My mother didn't, and I don't. My children are public-school educated, but we do still hold to what many may call fundamental beliefs. I do believe that Esther and John love their children. I do honestly believe that. From my time in IFB, I have found that the priority is the church body, proselytizing, and what they take to be living for the Lord. Much else falls by the way side. The lack of medical care, education, that is beyond my ability to understand. A big reason why I moved, and am no longer in that church. I couldn't reconcile my faith in God with how the people lived.  

I hope that answered some of the questions, but I am reticent to be the mouthpiece for an entire body of people.

[apple1]

 The churches I grew up in would have never supported a guy with that many kids, wanting so much expensive stuff up front and with so little of an actual mission plan.

As I have said on here before, I also was raised mostly (not entirely) IFB. I cannot imagine any of those IFB churches supporting Shrader. Far too many red flags, the most obvious being the large number of kids.

If most IFB churches have changed into Quiverfull promoters, it is news to me. Not the ones I know in my area. One family having 50 gazillion kids is still an anomaly. And would be viewed as a contraindication to going somewhere as a missionary on support from those churches.

[SeeSunshine]

As I have said on here before, I also was raised mostly (not entirely) IFB. I cannot imagine any of those IFB churches supporting Shrader. Far too many red flags, the most obvious being the large number of kids.

If most IFB churches have changed into Quiverfull promoters, it is news to me. Not the ones I know in my area. One family having 50 gazillion kids is still an anomaly. And would be viewed as a contraindication to going somewhere as a missionary on support from those churches.

Do you mind my asking whereabouts you are located? I am in the deep South, and most IFB churches do promote not limiting your family size. They don't call it quiverful, but the message is to let God have control over all aspects in your life, and your fertility is a major one.

[formergothardite]

I'm in NC and surrounded by IFB and most of them have average size families. The ones that don't are praised for trusting God, but they seem to be the exception. Of course I know tons of mega-families due to my background in ATI, but a lot of these families ended up starting home churches because they thought the IFB churches would corrupt their kids.  Growing up my family was the odd one for having more than a couple of kids. And then we were really, really odd for wanting to homeschool instead of sending them to the church school. 

And I have talked to my mom about this and she can't think of a single missionary the churches in our areas supported who had a ton of kids. This was the 70's and 80's.  It was mostly young couples with no children or older couples whose children were grown. It wasn't uncommon for missionaries who went on the mission field with no kids and started having children to come back to America and become a church pastor. The mission funds were meant to be used for missions and when you have that many children much of the funds would be used to support the family, so it just didn't(and still doesn't) make a ton of sense to send people with lots of children into the mission field. 

[Palimpsest]

<snip for space>

My former church does still support them. Most independent Baptist churches support a variety of missionaries, and the amount going to each individual missionary is not a massive amount. It takes a lot, in my opinion, for a church to back out of supporting a missionary. I don't know a lot of the details about why his sending church dropped him. I know there was a clash over theology and believing in works-based results, i.e. he wasn't presenting enough "fruit". 

That's interesting.  I seem to remember another person from an IFB church that was sponsoring him coming here and saying that John was dropped because he was too focused on works.  That was supported by his fervent claims that he did too believe in saved by Grace Alone in the declining action after he was dropped by his sending church.  I'm not saying you are wrong, just presenting a different take.

[apple1]

Do you mind my asking whereabouts you are located? I am in the deep South, and most IFB churches do promote not limiting your family size. They don't call it quiverful, but the message is to let God have control over all aspects in your life, and your fertility is a major one.

Ohio

[Palimpsest]

I'm in NC and surrounded by IFB and most of them have average size families. The ones that don't are praised for trusting God, but they seem to be the exception. Of course I know tons of mega-families due to my background in ATI, but a lot of these families ended up starting home churches because they thought the IFB churches would corrupt their kids.  Growing up my family was the odd one for having more than a couple of kids. And then we were really, really odd for wanting to homeschool instead of sending them to the church school. 

And I have talked to my mom about this and she can't think of a single missionary the churches in our areas supported who had a ton of kids. This was the 70's and 80's.  It was mostly young couples with no children or older couples whose children were grown. It wasn't uncommon for missionaries who went on the mission field with no kids and started having children to come back to America and become a church pastor. The mission funds were meant to be used for missions and when you have that many children much of the funds would be used to support the family, so it just didn't(and still doesn't) make a ton of sense to send people with lots of children into the mission field. 

Are we looking at a generational shift here?  Home school being better now than Church school and perhaps the perception today is that the more children God has given you, the more suitable you are for the mission field?

[Palimpsest]

I know I've said this before, but what really burns me about John is the church planting aspect.  It's not just his smugness and consumerism.  I know that evangelizing is hugely important to the IFB churches, but the absence of practical assistance drives me up the wall.  I've looked at a lot of IFB missionary to Zambia  blogs now, and Shrader and Rea seem to be the only ones with these printing and training nationals in the right-kind-of-Christianity missions.  All the others are running schools, clinics and orphanages.  That is another reason I'm annoyed with the IFB churches that sponsor John's mission pretentions.  It is so patronizing and condescending.  Neo-colonialism at it's worst. 

On another note, there is a Fundie over on the Dillard thread who is making me sit on my fingers for the sake of my blood pressure.  She's explaining that Church planters are wonderful because they "take care" of their small groups of converts even if they are not digging wells or providing material assistance and education.  She makes it sounds like animal rescue!

 

[formergothardite]

Are we looking at a generational shift here?  Home school being better now than Church school and perhaps the perception today is that the more children God has given you, the more suitable you are for the mission field?

I think that there probably has been a shift, but most IFB wouldn't admit it. My Grandma was the most little old IFB lady you could imagine, yet she worked and sent her kids to public school and so did all the other women in the church. Her church was built right by the mill she and most of the women in the community worked at.  The idea of having kid after kid, not working and not sending them to public school would be a crazy idea back then. When I was a child it seemed like every church had a school and you were kind of expected to send your kid to that instead of public school but most of the mothers worked. It doesn't seem like there are as many church schools anymore. I guess when homeschooling took off there just wasn't a need. 

I still can't get why people would give money to a guy like John Shrader. He just seems to bumble his way through life trying to get money for his latest obsession. I am pretty sure the IFB churches of my grandma's day and of my time wouldn't have supported him. I wonder how things have changed so much? What happened in these churches where they will finance a guy like John? Apparently at least some of the churches started questioning him, but only after they gave the money to get him to Zambia. There was  a million red flags that should have let them know that he wasn't a good candidate for the mission field. 

[SeeSunshine]

I'm in NC and surrounded by IFB and most of them have average size families. The ones that don't are praised for trusting God, but they seem to be the exception. Of course I know tons of mega-families due to my background in ATI, but a lot of these families ended up starting home churches because they thought the IFB churches would corrupt their kids.  Growing up my family was the odd one for having more than a couple of kids. And then we were really, really odd for wanting to homeschool instead of sending them to the church school. 

And I have talked to my mom about this and she can't think of a single missionary the churches in our areas supported who had a ton of kids. This was the 70's and 80's.  It was mostly young couples with no children or older couples whose children were grown. It wasn't uncommon for missionaries who went on the mission field with no kids and started having children to come back to America and become a church pastor. The mission funds were meant to be used for missions and when you have that many children much of the funds would be used to support the family, so it just didn't(and still doesn't) make a ton of sense to send people with lots of children into the mission field. 

I fully agree with you and your mom's sentiment. I don't think it's well-advised to send an entire family over there. I ultimately left the IFB church I was a part of due to conflict in my beliefs with how things were being lived out there. Not all families in my church did the quiverful thing either, some took BC or NFP, or their husbands got the snip.

That's interesting.  I seem to remember another person from an IFB church that was sponsoring him coming here and saying that John was dropped because he was too focused on works.  That was supported by his fervent claims that he did too believe in saved by Grace Alone in the declining action after he was dropped by his sending church.  I'm not saying you are wrong, just presenting a different take.

I think John may have leaned in one direction too far for his sending church, and then largely over corrected. John has always come across to my former church as believing in a Grace Alone form of salvation, which is what my church believes. 

And no worries about me being right/wrong, I have started thinking that maybe certain churches and people are told what they are needing / wanting to hear.

I know I've said this before, but what really burns me about John is the church planting aspect.  It's not just his smugness and consumerism.  I know that evangelizing is hugely important to the IFB churches, but the absence of practical assistance drives me up the wall.  I've looked at a lot of IFB missionary to Zambia  blogs now, and Shrader and Rea seem to be the only ones with these printing and training nationals in the right-kind-of-Christianity missions.  All the others are running schools, clinics and orphanages.  That is another reason I'm annoyed with the IFB churches that sponsor John's mission pretentions.  It is so patronizing and condescending.  Neo-colonialism at it's worst. 

On another note, there is a Fundie over on the Dillard thread who is making me sit on my fingers for the sake of my blood pressure.  She's explaining that Church planters are wonderful because they "take care" of their small groups of converts even if they are not digging wells or providing material assistance and education.  She makes it sounds like animal rescue!

 

I agree with a lot of what you've posted. I think that on top of spreading the gospel, missionaries should do what they can to improve where they are. The condescension is very real with mostly white IFB churches thinking they are helping to "save" other races. 
 

[Crocoduck]

Since the Rodrigues trainwreck has slowed down, I've decided to delve into Shrader-land. I started with this thread, but obviously I'm missing some back story. Please keep the rescue ferrets on high alert until I emerge!

[Gimme a Free RV]

Since the Rodrigues trainwreck has slowed down, I've decided to delve into Shrader-land. I started with this thread, but obviously I'm missing some back story. Please keep the rescue ferrets on high alert until I emerge!

You're in for quite a ride...and yes, it all really happened.

I think that on top of spreading the gospel, missionaries should do what they can to improve where they are. The condescension is very real with mostly white IFB churches thinking they are helping to "save" other races. 
 

This is what I perceive in John.  Condescension--not only toward the Zambians but toward people who disagree with him.  He doesn't admit fault.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

You're in for quite a ride...and yes, it all really happened.

Yes, when I went back last spring and read all of the FJ discussions, I was often convulsed with laughter (400lb paper cutter!!) and shared everything with my husband.  He is also horrified/amazed by the Shrader story.  We want someone to make a movie out of the whole thing-- it would come off as such a farce.  The only thing missing is a dramatic ending.  

[Ellimenopy]

Yes, when I went back last spring and read all of the FJ discussions, I was often convulsed with laughter (400lb paper cutter!!) and shared everything with my husband.  He is also horrified/amazed by the Shrader story.  We want someone to make a movie out of the whole thing-- it would come off as such a farce.  The only thing missing is a dramatic ending.  

Give it time. Maybe he'll hot wire the plane and crash it on safari. Or get eaten by a lion. 

[formergothardite]

I forgot about the 400 lb paper cutter! Has he ever mentioned it again or did it go into the void with the plane? 

Sometimes John makes the Poisonwood Bible missionary look sane. 

[Palimpsest]

This is what I perceive in John.  Condescension--not only toward the Zambians but toward people who disagree with him.  He doesn't admit fault.

Actually, people and criticism have got through his thick hide a few times.  He screams like a stuck pig, and then weeps and wails and self-flagellates all over the place to show that he is really a humble Godly man.  But he then flips back to his arrogant self within days.   Way back in 2013 I noticed that David Rea had slapped him down hard.  It was probably the first sign that all was not well in Team Zambia.  John has big and rather worrying mood swings. 

I don't think Rea is much better than John although he certainly planned better.  He is just as crass.

For those going down the rabbit hole, the mission trip to Burundi was a colossal failure.   Grandiose plans for meeting the President to footing it around and eating "converts" out of house and home.  It is beyond me how John sold that as a success story to the IFB churches.

I forgot about the 400 lb paper cutter! Has he ever mentioned it again or did it go into the void with the plane? 

Sometimes John makes the Poisonwood Bible missionary look sane. 

Where is that damn plane?

I think he has used the paper cutter for the sanctimonious toilet paper.  He has distributed a few tracts.

[salex]

I think that there probably has been a shift, but most IFB wouldn't admit it. My Grandma was the most little old IFB lady you could imagine, yet she worked and sent her kids to public school and so did all the other women in the church. Her church was built right by the mill she and most of the women in the community worked at.  The idea of having kid after kid, not working and not sending them to public school would be a crazy idea back then. When I was a child it seemed like every church had a school and you were kind of expected to send your kid to that instead of public school but most of the mothers worked. It doesn't seem like there are as many church schools anymore. I guess when homeschooling took off there just wasn't a need. 

I still can't get why people would give money to a guy like John Shrader. He just seems to bumble his way through life trying to get money for his latest obsession. I am pretty sure the IFB churches of my grandma's day and of my time wouldn't have supported him. I wonder how things have changed so much? What happened in these churches where they will finance a guy like John? Apparently at least some of the churches started questioning him, but only after they gave the money to get him to Zambia. There was  a million red flags that should have let them know that he wasn't a good candidate for the mission field. 

Not sure where you are from,  or exactly how old your grandmother/mother would have been, but in many parts of the USA (South and other areas) public schools were popular until desegregation, then lots and lots of whites sent their kids to one kind of private school or another, often religious schools as they were relatively easy to set up.  Homeschooling may have been an offshoot of that, that came later, (I will always think it, combined with quiverful/lots of kids was a reaction to second wave feminism.... women your grandmother's age may not have been viewed as dangerous feminists but when Southern baptists decided women should not be teaching at their seminaries any longer, etc, finding a way to keep the women occupied at home for many of the groups included having more kids and homeschooling... and that was cheaper than private religions schools. 

[browncoatslytherin]

I'm in NC and surrounded by IFB and most of them have average size families. The ones that don't are praised for trusting God, but they seem to be the exception. Of course I know tons of mega-families due to my background in ATI, but a lot of these families ended up starting home churches because they thought the IFB churches would corrupt their kids.  Growing up my family was the odd one for having more than a couple of kids. And then we were really, really odd for wanting to homeschool instead of sending them to the church school. 

And I have talked to my mom about this and she can't think of a single missionary the churches in our areas supported who had a ton of kids. This was the 70's and 80's.  It was mostly young couples with no children or older couples whose children were grown. It wasn't uncommon for missionaries who went on the mission field with no kids and started having children to come back to America and become a church pastor. The mission funds were meant to be used for missions and when you have that many children much of the funds would be used to support the family, so it just didn't(and still doesn't) make a ton of sense to send people with lots of children into the mission field. 

that's pretty interesting re: kids in the mission field. as i was growing up in ifb churches in the late 80's/90's, we did have some missionaries with kids. i think the max number was four or five, though, they weren't large families by any means.

the only exception was one family we knew who adhered to a quiverfull-style of life. their work was a little different, though, they basically went and started churches, helped them become established, pastored them for a little bit, then moved on. lather, rinse, repeat. the furtherest they ever moved was somewhere in southern ontario, they mostly stayed in the states. he was also the son of a long-time church member in good standing of the ifb church we attended in georgia, so that may have influenced his support as well.

[formergothardite]

So Rea has updated his Team Zambia page to share how life is going in Zambia. He has accomplished more in a couple of months than John has in a year. I bet John is fuming. Rea hasn't been plagued with the container problems that John had. His container arrived in perfect shape and in a couple weeks he will be able to start printing things nobody in Zambia really wants. He has accumulated a handful of converts and started a Bible study. His Chinese tires are giving him trouble, but other than that things are running smoothly in the Rea Mission Camp. 

So far in the Zambia Missionary Printing Wars Rea is winning. John can get back in the lead if he produces the plane and starts flying to the bush to save souls. Come on John! You can do it! We all want to know what happened to that plane. 

[Gobsmacked]

John will not be able to fly the plane in zambia ( if it exists) because he has no hours flown for over a year now. He will also have to register as a pilot with the Zambian air authorities. The plane will have to be air worthy!! ( he will need at least one plane engineer to look after the plane, refuel it etc and record checks done before and after each flight)

 

The bush airstrips are usually some miles from any villages so a driver will have to be at the airstrip to pick him up.

Planes are always met by somebody either from the air authorities or from the lodges which use the airstrips. His flight paths will have to be booked, registered and logged in properly with the nearest local air traffic controllers. As I mentioned on previous older threads Johns head was completely in the clouds( unlike the invisible plane) if he ever thought that he was going to be flying around Zambia!!!

'Out of Africa ' days are long gone. At least 80 years ago!!!