Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion - Lucky 13

[Jentacular]

Arkansas Democrat Gazette suing city of Springdale to get Duggar 911 call and judge's letters:

http://m.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/s ... zette-sui/

I didn't see this here, my apologies if I missed it. And link is public so I left it whole.

[refugee]

Arkansas Democrat Gazette suing city of Springdale to get Duggar 911 call and judge's letters:

http://m.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/s ... zette-sui/

I didn't see this here, my apologies if I missed it. And link is public so I left it whole.

Does this mean the Arkansas press are now turning against the Duggars? That they are losing control of the local media?

[apandaaries]

Thinking about the fundies who supported Josh the first time around and are now condemning him. We all know that fundie scandals are going to keep coming to light over the years, they just can't help themselves. So I'm wondering, how long can this lifestyle be sustained through the generations? Is this form of parenting ever successful in the long term, meaning do these parents raise children who raise *their* kids the same way (and manage to stay godly enough to avoid scandal)?

Or put another way (if the Gothard way is too new to assess), were any of the current crop of parents raising their kids this way themselves the children of super-fundies in the 60s and 70s?

From what I've seen (and anyone out there with more information, please feel free to jump in), super-fundie style wasn't much of a thing in the 60s or 70s. A lot of this nonsense appears to have been ramped up in the 80s (the Pearls and Nancy Campbell's Above Rubies were instrumental in that push, as were Gothard and many others). In the 90s, things seem to have become even more cult-like and fervent, at least rhetorically and with the restrictions on dress, schooling, secular interactions, etc.

The data's still not in, but it does not appear to be the kind of program which is sustainable in the long-term. The children/adults coming out of these homeschooled, isolated situations have few skills and less education. They're stunted intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally. Those who decide to leave (Daniel and Suze Keller, Cynthia Jeub, Alecia Pennington, etc) have even more challenges, starting with familial backlash and including trying to make it in a world where their credentials (School of the Dining Room Table certifications don't go far) are lacking.

The best comparison I see in the US is with the FLDS. However, historically, they have had a slightly improved appreciation for education (Warren Jeffs really trashed what was there, though) and a much greater emphasis on hard work and hard labor. While the women of the FLDS were spiritually abused and saddled with early marriages and tons of kids, they also seemed to work their a$$es off -- gardening, cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc. I attribute this to their pioneer-ish roots and the fact that many people in that religion have had familial involvement for generations. Many of the Quiverfull families seem to lack this incredibly strong work ethic -- not all, but a number of them seem a bit lazier than one would expect (*cough* Duggars *cough*). Don't get me wrong, though -- I've also read some accounts of rather lazy-sounding FLDS patriarchs who couldn't be arsed to finish their megahomes, built for child after child but always in a continuous state of construction. I've read reports of unfinished walls with electrical issues, too...definitely not trying to hold up the FLDS as a superior cult, but on the whole, they seem slightly more industrious.

The FLDS also allowed more of their children to pursue higher education. Every community needs a doctor and a dentist, and a lawyer never hurt, either, for pesky persecution issues. The FLDS used to seem to plan better for the future than the Quiverfull types. From what I can now tell, Warren Jeffs really destroyed much of his community with his horrible decisions and actions. People appear to be slowly awakening and slipping away from those communities.

TL;DR: Quiverfull doesn't seem to be sustainable in the long-term. This could be by design, as perhaps some are hoping the Rapture/Apocalypse/third temple will be upon us soon, and that God will strike down with great vengeance... I'm not in the upper echelons and don't know, but the evidence points me that direction.

I'm sure I messed up or left out important dates and names, so if anyone would like to fill in some blanks or make some corrections, please feel free!

[Cleopatra7]

From what I've seen (and anyone out there with more information, please feel free to jump in), super-fundie style wasn't much of a thing in the 60s or 70s. A lot of this nonsense appears to have been ramped up in the 80s (the Pearls and Nancy Campbell's Above Rubies were instrumental in that push, as were Gothard and many others). In the 90s, things seem to have become even more cult-like and fervent, at least rhetorically and with the restrictions on dress, schooling, secular interactions, etc.

The data's still not in, but it does not appear to be the kind of program which is sustainable in the long-term. The children/adults coming out of these homeschooled, isolated situations have few skills and less education. They're stunted intellectually, spiritually, and emotionally. Those who decide to leave (Daniel and Suze Keller, Cynthia Jeub, Alecia Pennington, etc) have even more challenges, starting with familial backlash and including trying to make it in a world where their credentials (School of the Dining Room Table certifications don't go far) are lacking.

The best comparison I see in the US is with the FLDS. However, historically, they have had a slightly improved appreciation for education (Warren Jeffs really trashed what was there, though) and a much greater emphasis on hard work and hard labor. While the women of the FLDS were spiritually abused and saddled with early marriages and tons of kids, they also seemed to work their a$$es off -- gardening, cooking, cleaning, child rearing, etc. I attribute this to their pioneer-ish roots and the fact that many people in that religion have had familial involvement for generations. Many of the Quiverfull families seem to lack this incredibly strong work ethic -- not all, but a number of them seem a bit lazier than one would expect (*cough* Duggars *cough*). Don't get me wrong, though -- I've also read some accounts of rather lazy-sounding FLDS patriarchs who couldn't be arsed to finish their megahomes, built for child after child but always in a continuous state of construction. I've read reports of unfinished walls with electrical issues, too...definitely not trying to hold up the FLDS as a superior cult, but on the whole, they seem slightly more industrious.

The FLDS also allowed more of their children to pursue higher education. Every community needs a doctor and a dentist, and a lawyer never hurt, either, for pesky persecution issues. The FLDS used to seem to plan better for the future than the Quiverfull types. From what I can now tell, Warren Jeffs really destroyed much of his community with his horrible decisions and actions. People appear to be slowly awakening and slipping away from those communities.

TL;DR: Quiverfull doesn't seem to be sustainable in the long-term. This could be by design, as perhaps some are hoping the Rapture/Apocalypse/third temple will be upon us soon, and that God will strike down with great vengeance... I'm not in the upper echelons and don't know, but the evidence points me that direction.

I'm sure I messed up or left out important dates and names, so if anyone would like to fill in some blanks or make some corrections, please feel free!

While there have been self-identified fundies for about a hundred years, the fundies of the past didn' try to separate themselves to the same degree that they do now. Protestant fundies believed in the public schools, because they pretty much controlled the content, especially in the South, and considered religious schooling by non-Protestants to be "un-American." Their motives may have been suspect in supporting public education, but that alone helped keep many fundie kids in the mainstream. The Bob Joneses were preaching separation, but it was mostly in terms of not dancing, not listening to jazz, not going to the movies, and the perpetual obsessions over women's clothing styles, which many non-fundies also did, albeit for different reasons.

Now fundies want absolute separation, not just from secular people and moderate Christians, but even from each other, which is why we see all these bunker-like families where so many of the adult "children" never leave. They encourage family businesses, but since many of them also believe in living in rural areas, it's hard to find customers to keep such enterprises afloat, especially if you plan on employing four+ sons. The extended family units and neighbors that would have helped women take care of large numbers of children are discouraged, and women are supposed to somehow do everything (raise a quiverfull, homeschool, have a home-based business, clean, cook) single-handedly, with only their older daughters, if any, to help. Men are supposed to be able to support a quiverfull of children with minimal education and minimal job skills. It's very telling that Gil Bates is praised for not having a conventional job on his IBLP profile. Even having a 9-5 job is frowned upon. If this is the kind of work ethic that is being imparted onto the current generation of fundies, I don't see how they can continue into the third of fourth generation.

The only reason that the FLDS stays afloat is because they know how to live off the land, live simply and communally (known as "the law of consecration"), and have no qualms about getting rid of men and boys who threaten the gerontocracy at the top. The most obvious problem with polygamous is if the most important men at the top have four or more wives (I think Warren Jeffs had up to sixty wives), then the lower status men will never have a wife. While there's no room for single people of any sex in the FLDS, women and girls can easily be assimilated into a plural wife family, while the unmarried man is just SOL, and will probably get kicked out. Since incest is also the order of the day in these polygamous communities, I wonder if the effects of generations of close relative inbreeding will be what finally causes these groups' demise.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Amandaaries, your summary looks good, the only thing I'd add is that many FLDS men prefer to deliberately leave their homes unfinished so that they don't have to pay taxes on them.

Cleo, I think you make an interesting point regarding inbreeding in the FLDS and other polygamous communities. The FLDS currently has the highest incidence of Fumarase Deficiency due to continued inbreeding, and it has only gotten worse in recent years,

[DarkAnts]

I watched an old episode of 17 kids and counting. It is the cheaper by the dugger episode. One of the girls said that the whole family liked to go shopping because they got out of the house.

Now, that may be the only way they get out.

[roddma]

Ha anyone noticed 19K FB shut down Posts to Page?

[MakeItSo]

I just had the chance to watch an episode of United Bates of America. I had only known of them form what I have seen on 19KaC. Compared to the Duggars the Bates seem so...normal. They really seem to have a good deep relationship with each of their children and while obviously the older kids are helping out a lot, there just seems to be more love in the home.

This could obviously be just from how the shows are edited, etc...but after so many Duggar episodes, they still come across as kind of cold. I don't see as much hugging and just...love. It's the only way I can describe it. I know different families show love differently but :shrug: I dunno.

I am sure I am not the first person to point this out but I thought I'd come here and share all the feels. :D

[Rescinded and Mended]

My very first Duggar episode was one of the travel episodes, and even before I knew anything about the Duggars, the thing that struck me was how detached Michelle seemed to be. She didn't touch any of her children during the entire episode, and even rebuffed a couple of the tiny ones to their sister-moms. But there was plenty of time to walk ahead of the kids and hold hands with Jim Bob. :roll:

Looking back, it also doesn't surprise me that it took years for me to learn to keep any of the Duggar kids straight. All the little ones looked like clones of each other in the early episodes, and even the older kids weren't much better.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I just had the chance to watch an episode of United Bates of America. I had only known of them form what I have seen on 19KaC. Compared to the Duggars the Bates seem so...normal. They really seem to have a good deep relationship with each of their children and while obviously the older kids are helping out a lot, there just seems to be more love in the home.

This could obviously be just from how the shows are edited, etc...but after so many Duggar episodes, they still come across as kind of cold. I don't see as much hugging and just...love. It's the only way I can describe it. I know different families show love differently but :shrug: I dunno.

I am sure I am not the first person to point this out but I thought I'd come here and share all the feels. :D

It's exactly because they present better that makes them more dangerous than the Duggars. Gil is on the board at IlBP knowing about Gothard's penchant for young women/teenage girls long before it went public, and allowed his girls to travel with him. They advocate Enzo's abusive child rearing methods. They think it's their business if their adult son kisses his fiancé before marriage. Not to mention old Nathan Bedford Forrest and Gil's choice to opt for grifting over keeping a decent job with benefits.

The kids had more exposure to the world because Gil and Kelly had no choice - the kids needed to work because they didn't have the Duggar money to keep them isolated. (Besides if Lawson didn't work who would they grift from in house?)

Their package is much more appealing for sure. Better looking kids, more individuality. Heck, even I had a pang of jealousy when I saw a pic of Kelly reading to a passel of littles all snuggled up against her.

The Duggars are like the scary old castle on a rainy night that Scooby and Shaggy approach with trepidation because they know there is something spooky inside. The Bateses are the gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretel so inviting, welcoming, and fun...until it's too late and you realize they are planning to cook you.

Edited for riffles, clarity, punctuation so as to pretend I don't type like drunken monkey.

[gustava]

:D

[calimojo]

Just curious, Did any of Michelle's family attend Jill or Jessa's wedding? We haven't seen a reference to her family in years. They went to that family reunion and in the early specials, I think one of her sisters came over to that little ranch house to visit.

But I find it odd that they wouldn't even acknowledge that there were some aunts or uncles from Michelle's side.

[MakeItSo]

It's exactly because they present better that makes them more dangerous than the Duggars. Gil is on the board at IlBP knowing about Gothard's penchant for young women/teenage girls long before it went public, and allowed his girls to travel with him. They advocate Enzo's abusive child rearing methods. They think it's their business if their adult son kisses his fiancé before marriage. Not to mention old Nathan Bedford Forrest and Gil's choice to opt for grifting over keeping a decent job with benefits.

The kids had more exposure to the world because Gil and Kelly had no choice - the kids needed to work because they didn't have the Duggar money to keep them isolated. (Besides if Lawson didn't work who would they grift from in house?)

Their package is much more appealing for sure. Better looking kids, more individuality. Heck, even I had a pang of jealousy when I saw a pic of Kelly reading to a passel of littles all snuggled up against her.

The Duggars are like the scary old castle on a rainy night that Scooby and Shaggy approach with trepidation because they know there is something spooky inside. The Bateses are the gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretel so inviting, welcoming, and fun...until it's too late and you realize they are planning to cook you.

Edited for riffles, clarity, punctuation so as to pretend I don't type like drunken monkey.

Thank you for this info! This is exactly what I meant (but could not articulate at like 2am :| :lol: ) when I speculated that it may be how the show is edited (and of course forgot to add and 'how they present themselves"). While it may be a better "package", I still like to believe that those Bates kids, if they decided to break free, would probably have it a little easier in the real (read: non-fundie) world because they seem more connected with it. But I agree with you that in the end if it's the same kind of KoolAid they're drinking that that is way more dangerous than the Duggars who are not even 1/2 as appealing to live with.

[MatthewDuggar]

What I know of the Bates is only via the 19 Kids episodes and the occasional report of a wedding or other incident on these boards or others. To me, they're just in another vein of crazy like the Duggars. Kelly to me comes off uber-fake sort of like Michelle but in a different way. She knows how to spin a situation to make it come off as speshul or unique. Gil seems dumber than I box of rocks, similar to JB, only better looking. Of the kids, Erin is the only one that stands out to me, if only for the Shirley Temple curls and the banging on the piano.

[hennypenny]

Does this mean the Arkansas press are now turning against the Duggars? That they are losing control of the local media?

The Democrat Gazette has never been a Duggar fan. Several of the reporters there knew when the Duggar's went to court about the molestations, but no one could report because there was a gag order. The Judge (Zimmerman) that presided over the case placed a gag order because it was Juvenile court. Zimmerman had previously placed a gag order against the Democrat Gazette before and the paper sued her (this is that article http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ar-supreme-c ... 71961.html). So the paper has never been fan of Zimmerman. Specifically there's a reporter that has gotten pretty brazen about his hate for duggars and zimmerman. His op-eds are really great about the Duggars :lol:. Zimmerman has a reputation for overreaching her power and pissing people off.

But on the brighter side, good luck today Fayetteville!! All those horrible anti-gay Duggars, FRC and Huckleberry, they can suck a big one. http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/ar ... -ordinance

[hennypenny]

Really and truly the Democrat Gazette is tired of Zimmerman's bullshit. :lol:

http://www.pressreader.com/usa/arkansas ... 5/TextView

[hennypenny]

Yessssss!! Duggars can SUCK it. Fayetteville is now the coolest place in Arkansas, love conquered.

FAYETTEVILLE – With the passage of the Uniform Civil Rights Protection Ordinance 5781, Fayetteville has affirmed its place as one of Arkansas’ most welcoming and business friendly communities. After the voters rejected a similar proposal late last year, many citizens of Fayetteville were unwilling to accept that defeat. Instead they reached out to members of the business and faith communities that had expressed concerns and worked with them to forge a fair consensus. Ordinance 5781 is the winning result.

[JMO]

I clicked the link for the newspaper and one of the headlines was that the judge struck down the motion to release the 911 call.

[zadie]

I'm reading The Importance Of Being Earnest and this line immediately made me think of the Duggars and other fundies.

"To speak frankly, I am not in favour of long engagements. They give people the opportunity of finding out each other's character before marriage, which I think is never advisable."

Hehehe

[Mothership]

Thank you for this info! This is exactly what I meant (but could not articulate at like 2am :| :lol: ) when I speculated that it may be how the show is edited (and of course forgot to add and 'how they present themselves"). While it may be a better "package", I still like to believe that those Bates kids, if they decided to break free, would probably have it a little easier in the real (read: non-fundie) world because they seem more connected with it. But I agree with you that in the end if it's the same kind of KoolAid they're drinking that that is way more dangerous than the Duggars who are not even 1/2 as appealing to live with.

I was thinking about this last night. I think that the friendly fundies and to a degree the fundie-lites are very dangerous. They remind me of David Duke-the "Nice" Klansman. He tried to make it acceptable to be a white supremacist by coming across as kinder/gentler. He was still a racist asshat. Gil Bates is still a misogynistic asshat.

[MakeItSo]

I was thinking about this last night. I think that the friendly fundies and to a degree the fundie-lites are very dangerous. They remind me of David Duke-the "Nice" Klansman. He tried to make it acceptable to be a white supremacist by coming across as kinder/gentler. He was still a racist asshat. Gil Bates is still a misogynistic asshat.

Agreed! It is just so noticeable how they all give each other REAL hugs, etc making them seem more "normal" and with that more easily acceptable. There is a reason cult leaders have had success in the past baiting new members. It's a lot easier getting people to sip the kool aid and have them chugging it pretty soon after if one is just charismatic enough. Still would like to think that if the Batesies chose to break free, they'd have a much easier time. I also noticed that IIRC both Bates parents went to college and hopefully will allow their children to go as well. Not that that is any guarantee that they'll end up more well-rounded...(sorry for derailing this thread)

[TheChibi]

Agreed! It is just so noticeable how they all give each other REAL hugs, etc making them seem more "normal" and with that more easily acceptable. There is a reason cult leaders have had success in the past baiting new members. It's a lot easier getting people to sip the kool aid and have them chugging it pretty soon after if one is just charismatic enough. Still would like to think that if the Batesies chose to break free, they'd have a much easier time. I also noticed that IIRC both Bates parents went to college and hopefully will allow their children to go as well. Not that that is any guarantee that they'll end up more well-rounded...(sorry for derailing this thread)

This is often refereed to as "milk before meat" by missionaries. It's scary effective too.

[candygirl200413]

So while looking at the pictures on the family facebook page I saw a group shot and Lawson Bates was at the wedding at all (looks like the only Bates that I see). He's right next to Jinger, and I was trying to see where his other arm was... just me being curious! :)

[Becket70]

I was just on the Talking Points Memo site and their cover story is about the Duggars and their ties to Gothard. Check it out.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

I was just thinking how quickly the Duggars went from their highest of highs to their lowest of lows (that we know of) in less than a year. In 2014, there were two engagements and two weddings. Jill became pregnant and so did Anna. They had their highest ratings with Jill's wedding episode on TLC, and the People covers started coming and sang their praises. Flash forward to May 2015, and the first scandal breaks. They try to do damage control and have the Fox News interview. That's a spectacular mess. Their show is pulled from TV and then ultimately cancelled. There's Josiah's broken courtship with Marjorie. Things begin to quiet down and then BOOM! The Joshley Madison scandal erupts and Josh is in rehab. Now, the Duggars are a brand nobody wants to work with. And, it seems like there might be inner squabbles between family members being played out on social media. Remember last winter when Jim Bob made some sort of statement about a petition to cancel the show, and he was basically gloating about being number 1 on TLC? Isn't there an old saying about pride goeth before a fall? Well, I say karma is a real bitch and she'll get you every time.