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Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion - Lucky 13


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If you're talking about the photo with Lawson, the Hartono guy and Jinger, he didn't delete it. It's still up on his Twitter account.

Ah okay. Good call. I thought it had been on his Instagram too, but I must have been wrong on that one. Either way, it does seem like maybe something is up with them.

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The fact two of the Bates guys randomly came down for Amy's wedding, and that Jinger is standing next to him makes me think that it actually might be a possibility. Jill's courtship was discovered when people saw a photo of her standing next to Derick. But you have to keep in mind that the Bateses have been tight with the Duggars for a long time and that Lawson and Trace were probably staying with them, so who really knows?

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Bad Wolf ? :D

I don't think anyone would be interested in hurting a real rehab in a real facility.

A stay in a fake facility with a skeezy leader by someone who isn't the least bit interested in either what they did or addressing any of their ongoing problems is another story. Not speaking for anyone else , but that's what it seems like

We don't know if he's there or if he is or isn't working on any problems he may or may not have. We do know that other people are there and they might be going through moments that are really hard for them and their loved ones. We need to be respectful and kind to the individuals and their families who could be harmed by things being done off site. No hand slapping here, just a reminder to be considerate. I feel really uncomfortable with the way some folks have chosen to conduct themselves.

For the record, IMHO there is definitely something a matter with Sir Smiggs. And that facility is a disgusting place that feeds off of people who need help. Sugar free gummy bears for them all!

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Did anyone else see the post Erin Bates put up the other day about an upcoming exciting announcement? It seems to have disappeared. (I'm 99% sure it was Erin.)

Derick posted this on Twitter...

Exciting things are happening in our family. Keep a watch for an announcement coming soon to dillardfamily.com

I'm not sure if Erin and Derick would consider a Jinger/Lawson courtship to be exciting news or not though.

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It was on Chad's blog... at the end of his latest entry:

We have a special announcement coming up that I am so thrilled to share with you all!....and I am so pumped about it, but I am bummed that I can't share now, but I will soon!...so stay tuned! =)
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It was on Chad's blog... at the end of his latest entry:

Thanks. It was also on Instagram at some point. That's the only place I follow any of the Bateses.

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I know, I honestly can't keep up with these people. So whenever someone says they think something disappeared, I go and check the other sources. I know people here were talking about it yesterday or the day before, too.

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Did anyone else see the post Erin Bates put up the other day about an upcoming exciting announcement? It seems to have disappeared. (I'm 99% sure it was Erin.)

Derick posted this on Twitter...

Exciting things are happening in our family. Keep a watch for an announcement coming soon to dillardfamily.com

I'm not sure if Erin and Derick would consider a Jinger/Lawson courtship to be exciting news or not though.

I seriously doubt that the siblings would be honored with revealing a courtship. If there was one I would imagine JB would want to be the one to share the exciting news. It would be interesting though. Can you all imagine that wedding party? There would be something like 15 bridesmaids and groomsmen. I don't think JInger photobombing a pic with Lawson who she's known forever and Jonathan? Hartono who's stayed with her family on multiple occasions is indicative of anything. I need more proof.

I really thought the Bates/Duggar courtship would be Tori/Joseph if there ever was one. I think the Dillard and Paine big news is about themselves and in the case of the Dillards probably nothing too exciting. They do have me wondering though. :)

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It's probably another blessing for Jill and Derick. She doesn't care that her body needs time to heal after the C-Section. She'll continue to put her life in danger to have as many blessing as possible. :angry-banghead:

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I read either on the Bates Family page or the Bringing up Bates page that the announcement is most likely that Erin is releasing a Christmas Album.

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I assumed it was something to do with Erin's musical career, too. Likewise, I assume Jill and Derick's is something to do with their missionary 'career'.

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I had a look at the birthdays recently and just thought about that josie would start regular school(not counting Kindy) if she was public schooled . I wonder who will teach them or if they start at 6 at all? it just makes me sad that it is the start of another insufficient schooling career.

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Apparently Jim Bob and one of the sons(I can't remember which one) is at epcot at disney tonight... I would think that the most magical

place on earth seems like an odd place for them to go?

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Apparently Jim Bob and one of the sons(I can't remember which one) is at epcot at disney tonight... I would think that the most magical

place on earth seems like an odd place for them to go?

All of them went to Disneyland in California on a very early special. J'Chelle was actually showing her home-skooling skills on one of the attractions: per-pen-di-cu-lar

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Well the Dullard's exciting news is clearly that Jill is now a certified midwife. It really scared me to think that someone without so much as a real high school diploma would be delivering children. She went through the "portfolio review" stream to get her accreditation rather than actually going to college. The midwife she apprenticed with to get her hours of experience had, at least at one point, lost her license so this gives me even less confidence. The sad part is the women she plans on "serving" won't even have the means to hold her responsible or to sue when not if something seriously goes wrong.

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Congrats then, accomplishing something semi-useful is not a mean feat for a Duggar girl.

(Go ahead, I dare you to prove me wrong, please grow up to be nurses and engineers and schoolbus drivers...!)

Who's next? I think some others are more certifiable than Jill :D

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Given the opportunity, Jill could certainly have studied to be an RN. She was not given that opportunity. So good for her for doing this. Given that some of the people she would serve where she is a missionary might have no one qualified to help them deliver, this could be useful. But I do not know at all what medical services they have where she is.

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Well the Dullard's exciting news is clearly that Jill is now a certified midwife. It really scared me to think that someone without so much as a real high school diploma would be delivering children. She went through the "portfolio review" stream to get her accreditation rather than actually going to college. The midwife she apprenticed with to get her hours of experience had, at least at one point, lost her license so this gives me even less confidence. The sad part is the women she plans on "serving" won't even have the means to hold her responsible or to sue when not if something seriously goes wrong.

Women without highschool degrees have been delivering children since the beginning of time. In some developing countries, many women still have their babies delivered by local lay midwives who probably didn't go to highschool either.

In emergency situations in the US, people without any real training have delivered babies. Police officers, taxi drivers, spouses, neighbors and even children may end up being the only person around to help a woman at the moment of childbirth. It is amazing how many of these emergencies turn out well--primarily because childbirth is a natural process. Medical training and advanced diagnostic and intervention skills are only needed in a statistically small number of cases.

All this is to say that to snark about how underprepared Jill is may be missing the point that she is, in fact, better prepared than (or at least equally prepared to) many other people who have delivered babies successfully in the past. A badly prepared midwife is still better than someone with no preparation at all, and a highschool education does not make you better at delivering babies than someone with practical knowledge and experience.

My mother was delivered in 1923 by a lay midwife with no more than a third or fourth grade education. The woman had delivered many babies in the community and came well recommended, but the family story is that when the midwife was washing the baby (my mom) my great-grandmother who had been assisting at the birth, noticed that the midwife had some kind of handicap to her right hand. Apparently, it didn't interfere with a successful delivery, and my mother and grandmother both did well.

Would I want someone like Jill to be the primary practitioner who delivers my hypothetical grandchildren? No. But if there were no one else, I would be grateful that at least she had some preparation.

In the environment where Jill will be, the odds are that she will be helping women who did not have the choice of better trained help.

Jill and her family are appallingly undereducated. I think that she would be deluding herself if she holds herself equal to a certified nurse midwife. But so long as she doesn't claim that she can do more than she can, she may actually be useful. (Now if we could just keep her from harassing pregnant women with talk of sin and hellfire...)

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In my family alone...if we had used uneducated "midwives" who don't know know a thing about prenatal care...there would have been at least 3 or 4 babies who have died and probably a couple mother's too. Actual problems arise more often than people think. Thank GOD for medical doctors and educated people in the field. If Jill had been my midwife...I probably would have had ecclampsia (same with one of my cousins...her baby was only about 2 pounds when born.) Another cousin needed a c-section when the baby got stuck. My sister needed an emergency c-section 5 weeks early because of no fluids.

If we had someone with Jill's "skills"...I don't think things would have ended so happily for us.

And think of all the people who get their 20 week anatomy scan and things like heart defects are found...things that need immediate attention at birth. If they were under Jill's care...those things wouldn't even be known because they don't even do the anatomy scan!

Jill is a CPM. That is NOT the same thing as a real midwife.

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My great-grandfather has five sisters in the cemetery aged 18-22 due to childbirth. My grandmother on other side had three brothers die between birth and three years old and she and her sisters were left motherless at young ages.

Studying genealogy is very eye-opening. Childbirth was very often a death sentence. Even in the early 20th century.

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My great-grandfather has five sisters in the cemetery aged 18-22 due to childbirth. My grandmother on other side had three brothers die between birth and three years old and she and her sisters were left motherless at young ages.

Studying genealogy is very eye-opening. Childbirth was very often a death sentence. Even in the early 20th century.

Yes. It is still more dangerous to give birth to a full-term baby than it is to have an first trimester abortion with trained doctor. (This is not a statement about abortion but about the dangers of childbirth.)

And I agree that many of us would not be here or would not have children if it weren't for modern medicine. Both my deliveries would have ended in tragedy if I hadn't been under expert medical care.

My point about Jill is that while she is not up to the standards of hospital-centered midwifery in th US, she has apparently acquired some minimal experience and knowledge so that she might be "better than nothing."

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I really think that the only difference in 'nothing' and 'better than nothing' is sheer luck.

Yeah, and the notion that Jill and her 'better than nothing' is good enough for the Central American women she proselytizes to rubs me the wrong way. Not that anyone here is saying that, it's just a thought that came to me.

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Yeah, and the notion that Jill and her 'better than nothing' is good enough for the Central American women she proselytizes to rubs me the wrong way. Not that anyone here is saying that, it's just a thought that came to me.

No, nobody has said that Jill is "good enough" for women in developing countries though not for us. :pull-hair: And no one should say so.

I value education greatly, and I think if at all possible, women in developing countries should have their babies delivered by fully trained medical professionals.

However, Jill is probably better than I would be (here as well as in a developing country) if someone suddenly went into labor and there were no nurse-midwife or obgyn around. I have a good deal more than a highschool education, but I have been present at only three childbirth's (two my own) and I wouldn't know how to judge cervical effacement, how to ease the baby's shoulders out of the birth canal, clear the baby's nostrils etc to help with the first breath, cut the cord, etc.

Presumably, with a normal birth, Jill would know all this and more. (I gather she made a bad judgment call during her own labor, but very few of us are rational and wise during labor.) So I will say that her training, however minimal, has probably prepared her to be a lot more help to a woman in labor than most of us who are not nurses, MDs or similar professionals.

Regarding developing countries, the sad truth is that they don't always have the resources we take for granted. A clean hospital bed and a trained medical practitioner to deliver a baby is not an option in many cases. I agree that it should be, but it isn't. Therefore it is my position that Jill may have something positive to contribute even if she is just minimally trained.

(FWIW, I have lived in developing countries, though always in the cities-- so I know the full problems faced in rural areas only by hearsay--but I have probably more personal experience of these countries than many of the people getting bent out of shape because Jill isn't a fully trained midwife.).

Anyway, the reason I am bothered by the way Jill's training is being belittled and condemned is that the tone of the discussion seems to be that because she is not trained to the highest standards, she is therefore useless. I believe that all education and training are valuable and that even undertrained and inexperienced as she is, Jill might come in useful, might have something to contribute. Just because she might not know how to deal with a unusual case doesn't mean she cannot deal with ordinary cases. Given that it is not a question of whether Jill or someone who is better trained should go on a mission, I don't see what it matters whether she is a "real" midwife or not.

Let me add that 29 years ago my cousin and her baby nearly died during a difficult delivery in a hospital in Mexico City. Her regular MD was off doing something else and she was left in the hands of three residents, none of which knew how to deal with an infant in the traverse position. My cousin was badly torn up internally and has needed multiple surgeries since. The baby had developmental delays resulting from minor brain damage during the birth. I don't know if something like that could happen today or whether it might happen in Central America. I just know there were 3 med school graduates who collectively messed up.

What worries me about Jill is not her limited "medical" training but her limited world view.

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