Doug Phillips & Vision Forum & Lourdes - Part 2

[salex]

I have zero knowledge of their specifics, but for Nolan to remarry in the future, doesn't he have to say she had an affair, so that he is blameless and the sin of adultery that is inherent in future marriages is on her head?

So, regardless of if she did or didn't, doesn't their religious tradition insist on adultery? I have heard some radio preachers explain that if you divorced for non adultery reasons, you were to wait to move on to a new partner until you knew the other person had committed adultery after the divorce, then they carried the sin and you were free to remarry, so for all we know, she may have dated someone after they were seperated/ divorced and it is defined as adultery.

I will never understand the desire for people to drag their own personal lives across the stage of the internet.

[Maxwell]

I have zero knowledge of their specifics, but for Nolan to remarry in the future, doesn't he have to say she had an affair, so that he is blameless and the sin of adultery that is inherent in future marriages is on her head?

So, regardless of if she did or didn't, doesn't their religious tradition insist on adultery? I have heard some radio preachers explain that if you divorced for non adultery reasons, you were to wait to move on to a new partner until you knew the other person had committed adultery after the divorce, then they carried the sin and you were free to remarry, so for all we know, she may have dated someone after they were seperated/ divorced and it is defined as adultery.

I will never understand the desire for people to drag their own personal lives across the stage of the internet.

It's been my experience that there is some debate about divorce in the reformed circles. Yes, the view you stated does exist (tends to be a more Fundie Baptist view) but so does the view that sin is sin -- divorce is sin but so is lying and gluttony. It happens. Personally, I think most folks start at the "Divorce is Adultery" view, mellow as they age, and when life happen & things blow up (either in their personal relationship or that of one of their children) end up in the "Sin is Sin -- it happens" camp.

Also, I'm guessing (based on FB posts) that Nolan has left most of that thinking behind and now embraces a more liberal (though no less crazy) view of life.

[treemom]

Please understand, I am not defending Nolan's actions. Not at all. I do have to wonder though, what the response would be if the tables were turned. What if Nolan had filed for a divorce and Lourdes had posted similar videos? What if we later found out that Nolan had had an affair 6-7 months into the marriage and several months before filing, and keeping it a secret for almost a year? What if Lourdes had posted the "My spouse cheated on me!" diatribe? I can't help but think that the response wouldn't be substantially different, Nolan would be a scumbag and Lourdes would be a hurt individual who needs time to heal.

Again, I'm not trying to defend him but I do feel for the guy. If what he said is true... that sucks! He married a girl that he'd been in love with for some time... they were coming out of a horrible situation... they appeared to at least have each other to lean on... then SHE files for divorce (apparently telling him that it was because of his lack of drive and self medicating on video games) but he later finds out that she was stepping out on him prior to filing. That REALLY sucks! I understand his hurt -- he's been kicked in the nuts multiple times by people he has loved and trusted, he's lost his mentor and his girl, his relations with his family are strained. My guess is that his foray into Taro cards and Astrology are a desperate attempt to make some sense out of his crumbling world -- and why not? They certainly aren't any less logical or less stable than what he grew up with.

OK, I'm done venting now. Sorry.

I pretty much hate infidelity exposures like this. I hate it when it happens to public figures, but it's a bit harder to argue my points.

I cringe when I see it covered on TV or the handful of times a social network acquaintance outed her cheating spouse.

[treemom]

I'm torn. Yes, it's a shitty thing for Nolan to do... but doesn't Lourdes hold some responciblity for this? Nolan made it public but Lordes was the one doing the deed. Who's hurting the lawsuit here? If I were in DPIAT/R shoes, you better believe I'd be searching for any dirt I could to show that my accusor was at least partly to blame... and this would be just the thing to do it. To me, Lourdes has torpedo her own case. Nolan ain't helping but I would be shocked if DPIAT/R's lawyer(s) didn't already know about this.

I think it's fucking bullshit that infidelity should hurt a lawsuit. The fact that Nolan specifically mentions the lawsuit makes him intentionally hurting her case.

Women who have been sexually abused can in fact have consensual sex with anyone they want. Yes, it is a moral issue to promise that you won't and then have sex with another, without permission from your spouse, but it just shouldn't matter.

It's fucked up. And it makes me mad. And it makes me mad Nolan thinks the answer to betrayal is to through doubt on whether or not Doug abused Lourdes. Because here is the thing...even if it was consensual, Doug had a significant amount of power over Lourdes, including being her religious advisor, that makes it susceptible to tort law.

[Howl]

It's been my experience that there is some debate about divorce in the reformed circles. Yes, the view you stated does exist (tends to be a more Fundie Baptist view) but so does the view that sin is sin -- divorce is sin but so is lying and gluttony. It happens. Personally, I think most folks start at the "Divorce is Adultery" view, mellow as they age, and when life happen & things blow up (either in their personal relationship or that of one of their children) end up in the "Sin is Sin -- it happens" camp.

Also, I'm guessing (based on FB posts) that Nolan has left most of that thinking behind and now embraces a more liberal (though no less crazy) view of life.

If you want to get into the fundamentalist view of divorce/remarriage/sin in the camp (adultery), the Fredericksburg Christian Assembly unpacks it all for you in excruciating detail in their 16-page position paper (!) on this very topic. If you want the summary, scroll down to page 15 and start there.

storage.cloversites.com/fredericksburgchristianfellowship/documents/Divorce%20%20Remarriage.pdf

1. Marriage is a "one-flesh" relationship of divine establishment and extraordinary

significance in the eyes of God (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Mark 10:8),

2. Only God, not man, can end this one-flesh relationship (Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9

—this is why remarriage is called adultery by Jesus: he assumes that the first

marriage is still binding, Matthew 5:32; Luke 16:18; Mark 10:11),

3. God ends the one-flesh relationship of marriage only through the death of one of

the spouses (Romans 7:1-3; 1 Corinthians 7:39),

4. The grace and power of God are promised and sufficient to enable a trusting,

divorced Christian to be single all this earthly life if necessary (Matthew 19:10-12,26;

1 Corinthians 10:13),

5. Temporal frustrations and disadvantages are much to be preferred over the

disobedience of remarriage, and will yield deep and lasting joy both in this life and

the life to come (Matthew 5:29-30).

This will lead, of course, to at least some people to decide to help god out by murdering the spouse. If, however, you have already remarried, you are good to go!

1. Should acknowledge that the choice to remarry and the act of entering a second

marriage was sin, and confess it as such and seek forgiveness............

6. Should understand that past sin, having been scripturally dealt with, does not

hinder from growth in godliness, or in the use of one’s spiritual gifts for the general

ministry to the body of Christ.

So, I think it is crystal clear

option 1. -- get divorced and never have sex again or

option 2. -- remarry, pretend you didn't read the 16-page position paper, repent in front of god and everybody and have a nice life.

The Frederickburg Christian Assembly is a sister church to the Doug Phillips' Boerne Christian Assembly and was previously (currently?) attended by Lisa and James Pennington.

[RosyDaisy]

In the Church of Christ if you are divorced, you can only remarry if your spouse committed adultery. They cite this verse:

"And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." Matthew 19:9 ESV

There are others, but this is the main one. It's just cherry picking IMO.

[DomWackTroll]

It's been my experience that there is some debate about divorce in the reformed circles. Yes, the view you stated does exist (tends to be a more Fundie Baptist view) but so does the view that sin is sin -- divorce is sin but so is lying and gluttony. It happens. Personally, I think most folks start at the "Divorce is Adultery" view, mellow as they age, and when life happen & things blow up (either in their personal relationship or that of one of their children) end up in the "Sin is Sin -- it happens" camp.

Also, I'm guessing (based on FB posts) that Nolan has left most of that thinking behind and now embraces a more liberal (though no less crazy) view of life.

Yeah, Nolan is posting all kinds of liberal political opinions and that he believes in astrology-- stuff no VF-er would ever post.

We can also see by looking at Facebook that Nolan and Lourdes were interacting there in a civilized manner as recently as September 4th…

facebook.com/nolan.manteufel/posts/901492546564916

...and one has to wonder why, if Nolan was so devastated by Lourdes’ infidelity way back in March of 2015, he continued to engage her the way he did on Facebook.

[formergothardite]

I'm confused. Did he know about the affair when he was making the really emotionally manipulative video saying that he did things that prevented Lourdes from being the best version of herself? Did they separate before she filed for divorce in March?

[GenerationCedarchip]

In the Church of Christ if you are divorced, you can only remarry if your spouse committed adultery. They cite this verse:

There are others, but this is the main one. It's just cherry picking IMO.

In reformed Presby denominations, both adultery and desertion by a non-believer spouse are allowable grounds for divorce and remarriage. In some churches, physical and/or sexual abuse are also allowable grounds.

I believe the reformed Baptists are similar in theology, but not 100% sure.

[GiggleOfGirls]

In reformed Presby denominations, both adultery and desertion by a non-believer spouse are allowable grounds for divorce and remarriage. In some churches, physical and/or sexual abuse are also allowable grounds.

I believe the reformed Baptists are similar in theology, but not 100% sure.

I was raised Reformed Baptist (fundy-lite though) and the bolded was my understanding of what was allowable.

[uber frau]

In the (non Baptist) Reformed denomination I grew up in, desertion was grounds for divorce but not for remarriage. Technically, adultery was but the very few times it happened ppl made things very unpleasant. It wasn't worth the social fallout.

[socalrules]

Nothing Nolan posts changes what happened in the past between Doug and Lourdes. However, What Lourdes does now does raise issues as to what her behavior was before, whether rightly or wrongly. If Doug claims everything was consensual, she says it isn't but is found to be doing a lot of things now with other people, it may raise the issue of a pattern of behavior. You do have to be very carefully how you live your life when going through a lawsuit of this type. You have to remember that although people at FJ may believe Lourdes is the ultimate victim, it may understandably be a hard sell to a jury. We know the background of Doug, Vision Forum and Fundies in general. It will likely be new to the jury and difficult to convince them that Lourdes, as an adult, did not want the advances of Doug but was brainwashed to accept any type of abuse from him. That is going to be tough to sell, which is why I think there will ultimately be a settlement, rather than a trial. Both sides are going to have problems before a jury.

I also maintain that Lourdes needs to stay completely off social media until this is all over. Let Nolan be crazy because the more he posts, the more he appears to have an agenda and he becomes less credible. She also needs to cut all contact with him.

[treemom]

It's bullshit that the only women who can be perceived as victims are ones who dress in a way someone says is ok, appear to be wholesome, immediately come forward and only women who meet a moral standard around sexuality. It's shitty. It shouldn't matter.

[formergothardite]

You might be right, Maxwell; it could be true. We just don't know. Nolan was raised to be paranoid, and he is, so I just think we have to take that into account when he throws accusations around.

Nolan right now clearly wants to hurt Lourdes as much as possible and it doesn't seem like he is thinking or acting in a rational way, so I'm not taking his word as being the gospel truth.

[Palimpsest]

Nolan right now clearly wants to hurt Lourdes as much as possible and it doesn't seem like he is thinking or acting in a rational way, so I'm not taking his word as being the gospel truth.

It could be true that Lourdes had an overlapping relationship. These things happen.

Nolan also might genuinely believe Lourdes had another relationship before the divorce, but be wrong. Only Lourdes (and the other party, if there is one) knows for sure. Sometimes it is much easier to think that you have been cruelly dumped for someone else, than it is to accept that your relationship has failed on its own. Lay all the blame on others rather than consider the part you may have played.

But, ITA with Nolan's wanting to hurt Lourdes and how this makes no sense after those painful video confessions. He should stay quiet on social media for his own sake too.

As Socalrules said above, Lourdes really should cut off all contact with Nolan immediately for many reasons.

[CloakNDagger]

If you want to get into the fundamentalist view of divorce/remarriage/sin in the camp (adultery), the Fredericksburg Christian Assembly unpacks it all for you in excruciating detail in their 16-page position.

The Frederickburg Christian Assembly is a sister church to the Doug Phillips' Boerne Christian Assembly and was previously (currently?) attended by Lisa and James Pennington.

So to be clear, a number of the founding members at FCA were from BCA and FCA pastor Bob Welch was a co-elder with Doug and from all appearances the transition was amicable. Welch is also fairly well known as a speaker in ATI circles. He is also the father of Richard Welch who was married to Dr. Leinninger's daughter Kelly and there seems to be some major scandal about that divorce situation. It is odd because that kind of thing would often cause an elder to step down in these circles.

[formergothardite]

It could be true that Lourdes had an overlapping relationship. These things happen.

Nolan also might genuinely believe Lourdes had another relationship before the divorce, but be wrong. Only Lourdes (and the other party, if there is one) knows for sure. Sometimes it is much easier to think that you have been cruelly dumped for someone else, than it is to accept that your relationship has failed on its own. Lay all the blame on others rather than consider the part you may have played.

But, ITA with Nolan's wanting to hurt Lourdes and how this makes no sense after those painful video confessions. He should stay quiet on social media for his own sake too.

As Socalrules said above, Lourdes really should cut off all contact with Nolan immediately for many reasons.

I was thinking this too. I was also wondering if they separated and perhaps she started dating during that point. None of us know, but he doesn't seem like the most reliable source of information.

He needs help, real help, so that he can move on with his life.

[DomWackTroll]

Someone on the cheater's site is accusing Nolan of contacting Doug's lawyers and offering himself as a character witness for Doug. Nolan does not deny it.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Someone on the cheater's site is accusing Nolan of contacting Doug's lawyers and offering himself as a character witness for Doug. Nolan does not deny it.

That is just....messed up. Given some of what Nolan has said about VF and Doug, it hints at psychological issues that go far beyond him and Lourdes. I really hope that he does get help from a source other than Jen.

[Jasmar]

Oh good, another abusive man-boy. :angry-banghead:

[RosyDaisy]

This jackass gets no sympathy from me. NONE AT ALL! Fuck these fundie SOBs!

[Coco]

It's bullshit that the only women who can be perceived as victims are ones who dress in a way someone says is ok, appear to be wholesome, immediately come forward and only women who meet a moral standard around sexuality. It's shitty. It shouldn't matter.

exactly. Because even in a relationship of equals, which DPIAT and Lourdes was not, it is a conscious choice for the man to act. And the patriarchal mighty men are just spiritual weaklings if they pass the blame.

[formergothardite]

After seeing his reaction in this situation and reading back to his reaction to MerryHappy stating that she was uncomfortable with him bragging on FB about schooling Lourdes in sex and how it seemed like he was just stroking his own ego, I think MerryHappy had a pretty good grasp on what sort of guy Nolan is.

[CrazyMumma]

reading the dialogue between "Stop the Cult Leaders' and Nolan... is crazy!! Having a re-read of what he wrote he is primarily accusing her of having an emotional affair... which he claims became sexual in early 2015... but then also admits that she left him in early 2015... he's stupid if he thinks that non VF cult members have an issue with having a bf when you're separated/divorcing... and it does seem like he's joining in with Doug Phillips out of revenge on Lourdes... what a .....!!!!!!!! I can't believe he is such a loser.

[formergothardite]

Nolan isn't appearing even slightly emotionally stable on that liars and cheaters blog. He comes off as an angry, bitter man who can't tolerate the idea that a woman left him.

Maybe I love Lourdes even more than her parents, brother and Brian? If God loved Jesus, why did he punish Him on the cross? What is love?

So basically he is hurting her because he loves her. She needs to be punished for leaving him because he loves her the most. That isn't a red flag at all. :roll: He needs help, lots and lots of help.