The Duggars' Megyn Kelly Lie-a-Thon Shit Show- Part 2

[Cancersurvivor1974]

Only a few seconds of (repeated) fondling?? The girls don't know it happened ? It doesn't matter? Minimizing abuse is sooo wrong and deeply disturbing. A knife stab or gunshot wound takes only a few SECONDS to inflict too, JB. But that doesn't make it stop bleeding or deaden the pain. I can't pretend I fully understand their situation, living every day with the molester, but the emotional effects on those girls are/will be huge.... I'm so disgusted. I suspect the facts we have heard is only the tip of the iceberg....What a mess.

[mamallama]

The thing that gets me is that however much you dismiss the initial incidents. It continued and escalated under J and M's watchful eyes. I don't think anyone would say that what happened to the five year old was okay and it didn't have to happen. That's the event that has to be weighed when deciding if Josh was really that bad.

[YoshiCat]

You know, I feel empathy for Josh as well. Yes, I did get the smug vibe from him earlier, he did seem to think that as the eldest, his sh*t didn't stink, but I feel this changed in the last couple of years. Basically, after he joined the FRC. I think that going to DC was a serious, serious wake up call for him. I thought it would be but I also thought it go either way, be a good thing for him like maybe getting some real education or it would send him into a spiral. It seems like it's sent him into a spiral. I was shocked when I saw the picture of him with his in-law family, he did not look good or healthy at all.

I think he went to DC thinking he was going to take it by storm and then found he was out of his depth. His homeschool education is nothing compared even to his FRC peers. Perhaps his role heightened feelings of being fake considering his past. Add to the mix a wife who seems happy to keep on having baby after baby, something that their marriage is based on so he feels he can't say "no". I wouldn't be surprised that he felt trapped and now he's a public pariah which is going to make it worse. His political aspirations are shot and he has no real world credentials to help him find a decent job.

He's been failed in so many ways, it's breathtaking.

And he was raised to think he was better than people outside of the cult, that had all the answers and knew what was best for everyone.

I spent the first 45 years of my life in the D.C. area and people there tend to be very smart, very ambitious and very well educated. He would very quickly realized just how little he knew and how undereducated he was. I just can't imagine the first time he went to a legislator's office and encountered a smart woman with a law or master's degree. It had to be a shock and I would think it would be really depressing. And he couldn't even get a real college degree and get caught up a little.

[SassyPants]

In terms of Josh realizing that he was greatly undereducated....

That's on his arrogant father too. JB convinced his kids that they did not need any real education and that they could compete...and the poor kids bought it.

Everything traces back to JB.

[southpaw33]

I still believe he didn't touch Jana because she likely was taking care of the youngest baby at the time and was not a sound sleeper (or had the sleeping with her).

[pinksparkles]

Personally, I think he was grooming the kids. He didnt get stopped after one. (If it really truly was only 1) and he became bolder. It was out in the "open" and not a bedroom. It was under the clothing while kids were awake.

And as far as a "few seconds" goes, it only takes a few seconds to get pregnant, too. Esp when dealing with a 14 or 15 year old boy/teen.

Sorry, not trying to be crass. Just telling it like it is.

[calimojo]

I think it is likely as well that Jana had a younger kid sleeping in her bed. I also don't believe that all the affected girls slept through it. I think they pretended to sleep through it. Memory is a weird thing, and when you are young and are repeatedly told a story, you easily incorporate that into memory. With these girls so young, and so controlled by their parents, it isn't hard to imagine the intense coaching that they went through over and over and eventually for them conscious memory became muddled. There are people who are victims of abuse who have their memories so overwritten by lies and denial that the truth doesn't come out until late adulthood.

And studies have shown time and again how unreliable memory really is, even in the best of circumstances let alone in their fucked up household.

Anyway, I asked this elsewhere but I think it got buried in a ton of other posts. Am I right that the police report said after Josh came back he was better, but then it happened again? I thought he had time of good behavior and then had at least one more incident after his return. If so, then all the talk by JB, M and the girls that he was a changed person after coming back is a lie.

[calimojo]

Personally, I think he was grooming the kids. He didnt get stopped after one. (If it really truly was only 1) and he became bolder. It was out in the "open" and not a bedroom. It was under the clothing while kids were awake.

And as far as a "few seconds" goes, it only takes a few seconds to get pregnant, too. Esp when dealing with a 14 or 15 year old boy/teen.

Sorry, not trying to be crass. Just telling it like it is.

I don't think he was grooming the kids. I think the escalation in the behavior was just from a growing lack of control. If he had continued ( and dear Lord, I hope he hasn't), then I would agree that eventually he might have started getting more and more manipulative with his victims, but I think Josh at 14 was having strong impulses that he was unable to control and his lack of control was getting worse. Coupled with the fact that he might have felt like he had been getting away with it, he likely became less careful. OR, as some people might say, he became more bold with it out of some sort of deep urge to be caught and stopped. There are many who think that serial killers who get more and more bold and sloppier with leaving behind evidence secretly want to be caught. I am not sure I really believe that, but who knows.

My heart is sad for 14 year old Josh. Not as sad as it is for his sisters and the babysitter, but I really do think that Josh was pretty messed by his parents religious fervor and ridiculous legalism. Josh as an adult is much harder to feel anything for because he knowingly engaged in prejudicial and hateful activities, and labeled entire groups of people as pedophiles and sexual deviants. The grown up Josh is not one I can feel much for. He could have chosen to quietly live his life, appearing on the show now and again, and run the car lot. He could have refused to be vocal on the political issues his parents fight for. He could have even taken his own life lessons, and gone out and preached tolerance and fought for victim's rights. But he didn't.

[pinksparkles]

I think one of the things that bothers me a lot is that both the girls and the parents said stuff along the lines of "the intent in his heart". And that makes me think it wasn't just curiousity like they keep saying. They said those words about intent and it came with negative meanings. Negative feelings behind it, NOT a curiousity feeling. At least that is how I took it.

And I believe whatever backlash he has from his adult life and speaking the way he does, HE made that choice. He isn't a kid. While I feel sad for the way he grew up, lots of people grow up sheltered or poor or isolated and they dont hurt others. I have conflicted feelings on that. He had to have known that was NOT appropriate. But in the interview, Mullet and Boob said conflicting things on that too.

[Toothfairy]

Just went overto twitter conservatives aren't buying this bs. Most watch the interview but not the show. They're sick of hearing about the Duggars and calling them all out. I also saw a conservative post about black lives matter and if black people really cared about black lives they wouldn't have an abortion. :angry-banghead: Conservatives Are ignorant and some are stupid but not that stupid. * Conservatives please don't take my comment to heart*

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I don't think he was grooming the kids. I think the escalation in the behavior was just from a growing lack of control. If he had continued ( and dear Lord, I hope he hasn't), then I would agree that eventually he might have started getting more and more manipulative with his victims, but I think Josh at 14 was having strong impulses that he was unable to control and his lack of control was getting worse. Coupled with the fact that he might have felt like he had been getting away with it, he likely became less careful. OR, as some people might say, he became more bold with it out of some sort of deep urge to be caught and stopped. There are many who think that serial killers who get more and more bold and sloppier with leaving behind evidence secretly want to be caught. I am not sure I really believe that, but who knows.

My heart is sad for 14 year old Josh. Not as sad as it is for his sisters and the babysitter, but I really do think that Josh was pretty messed by his parents religious fervor and ridiculous legalism. Josh as an adult is much harder to feel anything for because he knowingly engaged in prejudicial and hateful activities, and labeled entire groups of people as pedophiles and sexual deviants. The grown up Josh is not one I can feel much for. He could have chosen to quietly live his life, appearing on the show now and again, and run the car lot. He could have refused to be vocal on the political issues his parents fight for. He could have even taken his own life lessons, and gone out and preached tolerance and fought for victim's rights. But he didn't.

I agree that Josh appears to have started this right around the prime time most impulse control disorders and OCDs start. I believe he started out curious in a rigidly controlled environment where anything and everything even remotely related to feelings of a sexual nature is considered sin and after the first few times he couldn't control himself be asked for help.

His parents didn't get him any sort help and ALLOWED him to continue to escalate the problem. I believe he escalated probably for a combo of two reasons that are fairly common among ICD and OCD. He was seeking to gratify an ever greater impulse or desire or to contain an increasing complusion AND he was trying to do something, anything to make it stop. And sknce his parents didn't seem to see a problem with over the clothes he stepped it up.

Now the issue becomes psychologically and physiologically speaking did he create a worse problem in his own brain by escalating in an attempt to get notice? Where as I think had they treated him properly or even normally after the first time he cried for help he wouldn't be in danger of future incidents, he has by now, however, created a more difficult problem mentally for himself. One he may struggle with for the rest of his life. And.none of us really know and nothing JB, M or.the victims say can alleviate that very real potential.

That said, I do agree with you, as well, that Josh is now an adult and is held accountable for the way he lives and I can no longer feel sorry for that boy who was crying for help.

[Pandie5]

I think it is likely as well that Jana had a younger kid sleeping in her bed. I also don't believe that all the affected girls slept through it. I think they pretended to sleep through it. Memory is a weird thing, and when you are young and are repeatedly told a story, you easily incorporate that into memory. With these girls so young, and so controlled by their parents, it isn't hard to imagine the intense coaching that they went through over and over and eventually for them conscious memory became muddled. There are people who are victims of abuse who have their memories so overwritten by lies and denial that the truth doesn't come out until late adulthood.

And studies have shown time and again how unreliable memory really is, even in the best of circumstances let alone in their fucked up household.

Anyway, I asked this elsewhere but I think it got buried in a ton of other posts. Am I right that the police report said after Josh came back he was better, but then it happened again? I thought he had time of good behavior and then had at least one more incident after his return. If so, then all the talk by JB, M and the girls that he was a changed person after coming back is a lie.

I don't recall from the police reports. It is confusing since there are two reports. What struck me from the short amount of the interview I watched (had to fast forward through Jill & Jessa cuz it was nothing new. It could have ended with the previewed images...), was Jill said him leaving was definitely burned into their memory. 'Every time"? As if there was more than one time that Josh or maybe other kids was/were sent away. Was he sent away more than once? Sad that what the girls remember is the horror and sadness of breaking up the family. Basically they learned that bringing these things to light destroys the family, not helps them.

Edited to add quote from interview : they were "sad whenever he was sent away" – presumably for counseling, which police reports reveal was a three-month stay with a family friend in the home-remodeling business – "at the same time it was burned in our memory," says Jill. 

So others weren't sent away. But was Josh sent away more than once?

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I just wanted to touch on something I have read on this thread and a few others- people saying it isn't "normal" for a boy to touch or want to see his sister.

I beg to differ. It is actually very common for pubescent boys to be curious even about their sisters. I think we a have seen it in our own lives with our own brothers or friend's brothers. It is even a common trope on TV sitcoms.

Brothers will often go through a phase where they are curious about the female form and will accidentally walk in their sister changing or they elbow her breast. Afterall, before the internet your sister was your only easy chance to see a boob.

Now where I think Josh went off the rails of normal was he was slightly older than I would consider normal for this behaviour. This could be because of how he was raised with his sexuality forced down with no outlet. Or he could naturally be immature - afterall Jim Bob appears to be.

Josh also CONTINUED his behavior beyond the usual once or twice seeing your sister in her bra would suffice for a boy of 12 or there abouts.

HE ALSO was not showing interest in JUST pubescent girls. Jill and Jessa, it is possible, was just old enough to be considered "blossoming". This family also seems to sexuallize girls from an early age and he probably had no outside outlet for his frustrations like so many boys without pubescent sisters have in school mates. We also know there wasn't any looking at the bra section of the sears catalog, getting his hands on a nudie mag, or the internet.

Another thing Josh did that is well outside normal is his interests in prepubescent girls. This adolescent obsession with girl's bodies is about the developing body and the younger girls in no way should have been able to fulfil that.

BUT I harken back to my last post as well as what was said on here over the past few weeks. It is possible Josh was escalating as a cry for help, or be is truly emotionally stunted and was "curious" about girls like a five year old would be.

I am not excusing his behavior as I think JB and M by not getting him help straight off when he was literally crying for it, made this into a much more complicated psychological problem.than it may have started out as.

The reason for my post though is more to ask that folks not demonize adolescent boys because they might want to sneak a peek at their teenage sisters. Punish them for invading her privacy and all that but realize it is fairly normal even if it is his sister.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I don't recall from the police reports. It is confusing since there are two reports. What struck me from the short amount of the interview I watched (had to fast forward through Jill & Jessa cuz it was nothing new. It could have ended with the previewed images...), was Jill said him leaving was definitely burned into their memory. 'Every time"? As if there was more than one time that Josh or maybe other kids was/were sent away. Was he sent away more than once? Sad that what the girls remember is the horror and sadness of breaking up the family. Basically they learned that bringing these things to light destroys the family, not helps them.

I actually think the bigger child abuse here was.JB and M sending Josh away without telling the others exactly what he did wrong only saying "he was very bad". That had to scare them to death. Especially considering that in that family not eating your peas or not smiling all the time is a freaking sin. They probably were emotionally damaged thinking at any minute they would be sent off to their god knows where.

I was very disturbed to hear Michelle and Jessa explain how that went down.

[Pandie5]

I'm still stuck on how the parents claim Josh confessed each time. Differing from the police report. After reading articles on Gothard from SavingGrace I think the parents deliberately left the girls out as his accusers in their current version of history. Because the girls should have had to be part of the reconciliation process under Gothard rules if they told on him. First part of Gothard's wacknut process is to review what you did to possibly cause the offense. I.e. immodesty, defrauding, etc. Maybe the parents wanted to spare the girls that idiocy. Or maybe the changed story is to look good in Gothard eyes. They are telling the story of what they SHOULD have done according to teachings. If the girls didn't tell, they didn't need to be involved if Josh confesses, he looks like a hero and they keep girls out of the Gothard process of blaming the victim.

[gustava]

I don't recall from the police reports. It is confusing since there are two reports. What struck me from the short amount of the interview I watched (had to fast forward through Jill & Jessa cuz it was nothing new. It could have ended with the previewed images...), was Jill said him leaving was definitely burned into their memory. 'Every time"? As if there was more than one time that Josh or maybe other kids was/were sent away. Was he sent away more than once? Sad that what the girls remember is the horror and sadness of breaking up the family. Basically they learned that bringing these things to light destroys the family, not helps them.

Edited to add quote from interview : they were "sad whenever he was sent away" – presumably for counseling, which police reports reveal was a three-month stay with a family friend in the home-remodeling business – "at the same time it was burned in our memory," says Jill. 

So others weren't sent away. But was Josh sent away more than once?

Duggars tend to use whenever in place of when, which makes things confusing.

[notreality]

According to Alice he did have outlets because she says he was made to confess in church but continued to look at pornography on the internet. Maybe he was able to use the computer somewhere besides home because she makes it sound like he had some kind of ongoing porn habit.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

According to Alice he did have outlets because she says he was made to confess in church but continued to look at pornography on the internet. Maybe he was able to use the computer somewhere besides home because she makes it sound like he had some kind of ongoing porn habit.

I always thought that was a current on going porn habit circa when Alice made the actually post. So like 2010 and starting earlier from when be was working outside the home at 18.

Frankly it would have been great if had just been looking at porn all day everyday.

[notreality]

I always thought that was a current on going porn habit circa when Alice made the actually post. So like 2010 and starting earlier from when be was working outside the home at 18.

Frankly it would have been great if had just been looking at porn all day everyday.

True, I hadn't thought of that. Here's one post from 2007:

Robert, I think that I have been very honest with you. If you doubt all of this, call Jim Bob and ask him about it. First it was the pornography that he asked forgiveness for and later the rest came out..Not in church, but to some of the church members. Use your own judgement on this matter. I know what the truth is and that's all I'm gonna say about it. I'm sure you have the Duggar's phone number, if not it is listed in the book.

ETA: From the same thread May 2007:

Then the truth came out about his son. He is the one that told what happened. Josh got up in front of the church and ask for forgiveness and all that stuff, but he was secretly still up to no good. I really don't know how long it had been going on before it came out, but even after it did Josh pretented to be this sweet all American boy who loved his family. All the time he was going on Prono sites on the internet and watching all the filth that it has. The temptation was too much and he explored with his sisters.

[Lucy H]

I just wanted to touch on something I have read on this thread and a few others- people saying it isn't "normal" for a boy to touch or want to see his sister.

I beg to differ. It is actually very common for pubescent boys to be curious even about their sisters. I think we a have seen it in our own lives with our own brothers or friend's brothers. It is even a common trope on TV sitcoms.

Brothers will often go through a phase where they are curious about the female form and will accidentally walk in their sister changing or they elbow her breast. Afterall, before the internet your sister was your only easy chance to see a boob.

Now where I think Josh went off the rails of normal was he was slightly older than I would consider normal for this behaviour. This could be because of how he was raised with his sexuality forced down with no outlet. Or he could naturally be immature - afterall Jim Bob appears to be.

Josh also CONTINUED his behavior beyond the usual once or twice seeing your sister in her bra would suffice for a boy of 12 or there abouts.

HE ALSO was not showing interest in JUST pubescent girls. Jill and Jessa, it is possible, was just old enough to be considered "blossoming". This family also seems to sexuallize girls from an early age and he probably had no outside outlet for his frustrations like so many boys without pubescent sisters have in school mates. We also know there wasn't any looking at the bra section of the sears catalog, getting his hands on a nudie mag, or the internet.

Another thing Josh did that is well outside normal is his interests in prepubescent girls. This adolescent obsession with girl's bodies is about the developing body and the younger girls in no way should have been able to fulfil that.

BUT I harken back to my last post as well as what was said on here over the past few weeks. It is possible Josh was escalating as a cry for help, or be is truly emotionally stunted and was "curious" about girls like a five year old would be.

I am not excusing his behavior as I think JB and M by not getting him help straight off when he was literally crying for it, made this into a much more complicated psychological problem.than it may have started out as.

The reason for my post though is more to ask that folks not demonize adolescent boys because they might want to sneak a peek at their teenage sisters. Punish them for invading her privacy and all that but realize it is fairly normal even if it is his sister.

I agree with this but want to add that what is normal for most adolescent boys was forbidden to Josh. Most boys, even homeschooled boys, interact with girls and boys their own age. At twelve or thirteen many boys start to have relationships with girls that are more than friend/buddy. They can hold hands, dance, and maybe give a kiss to a girl.

Most boys have friends that share their big brother's Playboy or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit additions. They can go to the beach or pool and can look at a girl in a bikini without their sister shouting Nike. They meet girls even in church that aren't covered by frumpers.

Most boys are also told that sexual urges are normal and that touching themselves is a natural and healthy part of growing up. They aren't shamed and humiliated when their masturbation is discovered. They also don't sleep in the same room with a bunch of little brothers and have privacy for their exploration.

Most boys have healthy and natural ways to satisfy their curiosity but Josh did not. His developing sexually became such and twisty and he turned on his sister. I have empathy for the young teen Josh. None at all for the adult who bought into the crazy though.

[Pandie5]

Duggars tend to use whenever in place of when, which makes things confusing.

So in addition to not having real educations, they have crazy phrases like "defraud" that no one within the organization can accurately define, AND have their own useage of the English language? Oi. Ensuring they will never make it in the real world.

[Pandie5]

Forgive me if this was asked before. I fast forwarded and deleted the J&J interview. It seemed Megyn asked they if they feel like a victim of Josh's behavior several times in different ways. Specifically the victim of molestation, not victims of the media. Did they ever answer that question? I heard it at least 2 times and it was side stepped both times.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

True, I hadn't thought of that. Here's one post from 2007:

Robert, I think that I have been very honest with you. If you doubt all of this, call Jim Bob and ask him about it. First it was the pornography that he asked forgiveness for and later the rest came out..Not in church, but to some of the church members. Use your own judgement on this matter. I know what the truth is and that's all I'm gonna say about it. I'm sure you have the Duggar's phone number, if not it is listed in the book.

ETA: From the same thread May 2007:

Then the truth came out about his son. He is the one that told what happened. Josh got up in front of the church and ask for forgiveness and all that stuff, but he was secretly still up to no good. I really don't know how long it had been going on before it came out, but even after it did Josh pretented to be this sweet all American boy who loved his family. All the time he was going on Prono sites on the internet and watching all the filth that it has. The temptation was too much and he explored with his sisters.

My other post disappeared so let's try this again.

If we assume Alice is correct about this porm stuff too and the time line then we have to conclude this family isn't as locked down as most people think. Otherwise where and when did he have access to porn unless it was after he went to little rock.

Which just points to more Duggar hypocrisy and lies.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

Forgive me if this was asked before. I fast forwarded and deleted the J&J interview. It seemed Megyn asked they if they feel like a victim of Josh's behavior several times in different ways. Specifically the victim of molestation, not victims of the media. Did they ever answer that question? I heard it at least 2 times and it was side stepped both times.

They never answered anything. They had their talking points and stuck to them even when they made no sense to the question asked.

[notreality]

He was given a room at the new house for his hobby- I think it was videography? Maybe that required internet access. And it was a private room just for him... :shifty-kitty: