Duggar Property

[simplysweet]

This could even bounce back on Santorum somewhat... the hive vagina will have it's vengeance.

That would be WONDERFUL! :lol:

[loratliff]

I know everyone's excited and all, but can someone show me the document that shows the mortgage? I haven't seen anything that mentions a mortgage. Also, I would imagine that ANB/BellCow/whomever was holding the property in escrow. JB and JChelle paid them the full amount in a separate transaction (that wouldn't be available via public record) and then the deed was transferred for $1 just for legal purposes. (That's not that rare or uncommon, nor is it wrong. It's just a legal precaution.)

I guess I'm not seeing the debt that you all are outcrying?

[Justme]

Wow oh wow!! Just returned from my heathen paying job to find all this! I'll be watching TMZ tomorrow! Harvey & Max are "hotties"! :lol:

Joshie - hope you have on your black undies today! Daddy's going to have to do some serious damage control!!

Even if the story doesn't break nationally right now, word will get out via the web. We've ton's of lurkers!

To the investigative team :clap: :clap: :clap:

[demgirl]

I know everyone's excited and all, but can someone show me the document that shows the mortgage? I haven't seen anything that mentions a mortgage. Also, I would imagine that ANB/BellCow/whomever was holding the property in escrow. JB and JChelle paid them the full amount in a separate transaction (that wouldn't be available via public record) and then the deed was transferred for $1 just for legal purposes. (That's not that rare or uncommon, nor is it wrong. It's just a legal precaution.)

I guess I'm not seeing the debt that you all are outcrying?

Yeah, I haven't wanted to say anything, but this seems to me the most likely reading of the situation as well. All the corporations, etc. may not be in keeping with the down-home family image, but they're hardly scandalous. Unless I'm missing something. I haven't looked at the actual records themselves -- just read what others have mentioned.

[Witsec7]

I know everyone's excited and all, but can someone show me the document that shows the mortgage? I haven't seen anything that mentions a mortgage. Also, I would imagine that ANB/BellCow/whomever was holding the property in escrow. JB and JChelle paid them the full amount in a separate transaction (that wouldn't be available via public record) and then the deed was transferred for $1 just for legal purposes. (That's not that rare or uncommon, nor is it wrong. It's just a legal precaution.)

I guess I'm not seeing the debt that you all are outcrying?

The transfer of the deed on a $4.5 mil piece of property is totally irregular, esp. when you understand that the property was originally valued at $7mil. Money had to change hands. It is not reasonable for a person to consider this a normal business transaction. A reasonable person would know that the money had to change hands. Was it a charitable donation made from Jboobs church? Did the money come from the proceeds of Jimmie Lees estate? Who in their right mind transfers a piece of property that valuable for $1 without some security, i.e. a private note, to be recorded upon default perhaps? The deeds and documents indicate no esgrows or impounds. Anyone who has bought or sold a piece of property knows there are pounds of paper involved. My own property deeds show mortages and esgrows.

And how the hell can you build a house on a property you don't even own???

[Deleted03]

The transfer of the deed on a $4.5 mil piece of property is totally irregular, esp. when you understand that the property was originally valued at $7mil. Money had to change hands. It is not reasonable for a person to consider this a normal business transaction. A reasonable person would know that the money had to change hands. Was it a charitable donation made from Jboobs church? Did the money come from the proceeds of Jimmie Lees estate? Who in their right mind transfers a piece of property that valuable for $1 without some security, i.e. a private note, to be recorded upon default perhaps? The deeds and documents indicate no esgrows or impounds. Anyone who has bought or sold a piece of property knows there are pounds of paper involved. My own property deeds show mortages and esgrows.

And how the hell can you build a house on a property you don't even own???

and if you donate a multimillion property... can't you help the people building on your property to finish the house? or not live in 3 bedrooms rentals with 14 children?

[loratliff]

The transfer of the deed on a $4.5 mil piece of property is totally irregular, esp. when you understand that the property was originally valued at $7mil. Money had to change hands. It is not reasonable for a person to consider this a normal business transaction. A reasonable person would know that the money had to change hands. Was it a charitable donation made from Jboobs church? Did the money come from the proceeds of Jimmie Lees estate? Who in their right mind transfers a piece of property that valuable for $1 without some security, i.e. a private note, to be recorded upon default perhaps? The deeds and documents indicate no esgrows or impounds. Anyone who has bought or sold a piece of property knows there are pounds of paper involved. My own property deeds show mortages and esgrows.

And how the hell can you build a house on a property you don't even own???

Money *did* change hands, but that doesn't mean that *that* is public record. It would be recorded on their taxes, but you can't see that. In fact, the lack of record for the $4.5 million exchange seems to disprove exactly what you all are trying to prove. If there were, in fact, a mortgage you would see in the county's tax assessor's records. I haven't yet seen anyone post that.

[formergothardite]

But why would the money not change hands until well after they built a house and lived on the land?

[demgirl]

I agree, it's weird if they were building on property that they didn't own. Not sure about that one. I will say that not having mortgages or escrows recorded makes sense if they paid in cash, as they've always claimed. The corporation holding the land gets paid in cash, they transfer the property for 1$ in a recorded deed (very common) and for "other valuable consideration". Then they don't have to record the actual amount received but the contractual requirement of consideration is met. The difference in value could be one of "appraised value" versus "market value". I don't know that any of this is actually how it happened, but it seems possible. Maybe if I saw all the documentation I'd think differently?

[formergothardite]

It looks like the bank owned the land up until 2009, but they always made it seem like they owned it all before they started building. Would banks let people build on land they didn't own without paying anything down?

[loratliff]

I agree, it's weird if they were building on property that they didn't own. Not sure about that one. I will say that not having mortgages or escrows recorded makes sense if they paid in cash, as they've always claimed. The corporation holding the land gets paid in cash, they transfer the property for 1$ in a recorded deed (very common) and for "other valuable consideration". Then they don't have to record the actual amount received but the contractual requirement of consideration is met. The difference in value could be one of "appraised value" versus "market value". I don't know that any of this is actually how it happened, but it seems possible. Maybe if I saw all the documentation I'd think differently?

Yep. You're exactly right.

Also, you can't judge a property by its assessed value. You can protest the assessed value. My parent's house jumped in value quite significantly several years ago, but my dad didn't want to pay the increased property taxes since the house's market value wasn't as much as the appraised value. He protested it and got the assessed value down. That could explain the $7 million - $4.5 million change.

[loratliff]

It looks like the bank owned the land up until 2009, but they always made it seem like they owned it all before they started building. Would banks let people build on land they didn't own without paying anything down?

There's no proof that they hadn't paid anything. That's what I'm saying. If they did pay in cash, in full, that record would not be made public as it's not a mortgage.

[formergothardite]

But if they paid in full back in 2004 when they started building, why didn't it go into their name until 2009?

[Witsec7]

It looks like the bank owned the land up until 2009, but they always made it seem like they owned it all before they started building. Would banks let people build on land they didn't own without paying anything down?

Exactly. Thanks for reading the documents FG. Thats a logical question to ask. Construction started in 2004, I believe and they moved into the house in 2006. I'm guessing they were paying interest only on a private note/unrecorded trust deed. Then they either got a windfall from the Network or a combination windfall and money from Jimmie Lees estate. Jimmie Lee died in 2009.

demgirl: The 7 mil to 4.5 mil change doesn't have anything to do with taxes. It wasn't assessed even close to that value. The documents state they were FMVs on the property.

[loratliff]

But if they paid in full back in 2004 when they started building, why didn't it go into their name until 2009?

Dunno, but it's not proof of a mortgage or anything nefarious.

By the way, I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade. It would be great if all of this were true; I just haven't yet seen proof that it is.

[formergothardite]

Well, if they owned the land, it would be in their name, wouldn't it? If they didn't own it for whatever reasons. then they were lying by omission by acting like they did own it.

[Visionoyahweh]

By the way, I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade. It would be great if all of this were true; I just haven't yet seen proof that it is.

Even if there is no real scandal here and the story still breaks, JB will be forced to explain all of the various schemes to the public to clear his name. It still LOOKS bad and exposes what snakes they are when no one is looking.

[marmalade]

I think he might already know, but he never expected anyone to find out. Reality show producers are known to keep certain things hidden. I recall people on twop were suspecting that Sean was lurking there too. I bet he lurks on various sites.

I had a couple of FB chats with him, maybe 2 years ago. He confirmed he read TWOP but I didn't ask about FJ or DWOP, the other sites that are more critical than kind to the Duggars (and back then, DWOP had defenders who have now left the building).

If he didn't read here before, Smuggar or Amy probably tipped him off about this thread before the name change, earlier today. I'm hoping they were too busy praying away abortions for Sanitarium to hit up the site. But then again, Smugs has a smartphone and plenty of spare time to surf the internets as he hits up Mickey D's for the 10th time in a day.

[loratliff]

Even if there is no real scandal here and the story still breaks, JB will be forced to explain all of the various schemes to the public to clear his name. It still LOOKS bad and exposes what snakes they are when no one is looking.

What schemes, though? Any family with a lot of assets has multiple trusts, entities, LLCs, you name it.

[Witsec7]

Even if there is no real scandal here and the story still breaks, JB will be forced to explain all of the various schemes to the public to clear his name. It still LOOKS bad and exposes what snakes they are when no one is looking.

Gosh and those poor duggars, having to accept clothing donations while working so hard at hiding assests. Heck they're behaving like democrats for crissakes :lol:

[Visionoyahweh]

What schemes, though? Any family with a lot of assets has multiple trusts, entities, LLCs, you name it.

But, but, but, they're just poor as church mice small business people who love Jesus! They shop at thrift stores and make their own detergent! Everything they buy is used/low end crap! And golly gee, they don't know why all of these cameras keep showing up at their doorstep! And they just work hard and love Jesus, and if you do exactly the same thing you'll have a wonderful life!

ETA:

I'm hoping they were too busy praying away abortions for Sanitarium to hit up the site.

I lol'd at that typo so hard. It's where Josh and Ann belong! :lol:

[formergothardite]

I just really want to know why the built and lived on land that that wasn't in their name all while acting like they owned it?

[MerryHappy]

What schemes, though? Any family with a lot of assets has multiple trusts, entities, LLCs, you name it.

So the smoking gun would be proof of a loan through any of their trusts, entities, or LLCs, right?

[loratliff]

So the smoking gun would be proof of a loan through any of their trusts, entities, or LLCs, right?

Yep, but I haven't been able to find that; have you?

[MerryHappy]

I have not.

Granted, I have not been looking all that hard...mostly just tuning into this thread every so often.