Duggar Property

[demgirl]

But, but, but, they're just poor as church mice small business people who love Jesus! They shop at thrift stores and make their own detergent! Everything they buy is used/low end crap! And golly gee, they don't know why all of these cameras keep showing up at their doorstep! And they just work hard and love Jesus, and if you do exactly the same thing you'll have a wonderful life!

ETA:

I lol'd at that typo so hard. It;s where Josh and Ann belong! :lol:

This is what I'm saying. For us, it's crazy because you can contrast that "down home, buy used and save the difference" facade with the reality of a savvy, business-oriented family that has the knowledge and assets to set up semi-complex estate planning and other legal devices. There's hypocrisy there, of course... but I'm not sure it's an easy sell to a tabloid. If you could prove there was a debt instrument, it would be a whole different ballgame. But if no debt instrument was recorded, there's no way to prove there was one, even if you think it the most likely explanation for building on the land before it was officially in their names.

[loratliff]

I just really want to know why the built and lived on land that that wasn't in their name all while acting like they owned it?

Can you link me to that document? I'm curious about your question too, and if I see the document (can't find it on this thread), maybe I can answer or take a stab at why.

[loratliff]

This is what I'm saying. For us, it's crazy because you can contrast that "down home, buy used and save the difference" facade with the reality of a savvy, business-oriented family that has the knowledge and assets to set up semi-complex estate planning and other legal devices. There's hypocrisy there, of course... but I'm not sure it's an easy sell to a tabloid. If you could prove there was a debt instrument, it would be a whole different ballgame. But if no debt instrument was recorded, there's no way to prove there was one, even if you think it the most likely explanation for building on the land before it was officially in their names.

But any decent accountant does that. They might be God fearin' fundies but it doesn't mean they're total idiots. As a journalist (albeit not a tabloid one), I don't see the story.

[formergothardite]

I was just going by what experiencedd said. I can't understand any of those legal documents. She will have to tell you which one shows that they didn't move the land into their name until 2009.

[Witsec7]

So the smoking gun would be proof of a loan through any of their trusts, entities, or LLCs, right?

Depends. American law has a limit of a $10k for a currency transaction report. Banks, LLCs, money service businesses etc. are required to report. Its called follow the money. Heck, when I buy a CD for $10K it gets reported. My bank fills out a piece of paper that says where the money came from and where the money went.

[Rueinthesky]

From what I can tell (some of the documents wouldn't open for me) we are just looking at tax records right? What we need is someone to actually go to the courthouse in Arkansas and look up to see if there was ever a Deed of Trust or Mortgage on record if I am following all this correctly.

[Visionoyahweh]

This is what I'm saying. For us, it's crazy because you can contrast that "down home, buy used and save the difference" facade with the reality of a savvy, business-oriented family that has the knowledge and assets to set up semi-complex estate planning and other legal devices. There's hypocrisy there, of course... but I'm not sure it's an easy sell to a tabloid. If you could prove there was a debt instrument, it would be a whole different ballgame. But if no debt instrument was recorded, there's no way to prove there was one, even if you think it the most likely explanation for building on the land before it was officially in their names.

Oh I do agree with you, I may end up being a non story to people who don't know about the Duggars.

If I understand everything correctly though - JB&M had to come up with several million dollars at some point, right? That's just shocking to me that they could put all that into their business, drop a quarter mill on a hopeless political campaign, buy a goddamned touring bus, yet the kids are eating top ramen and wearing used shoes.

[marmalade]

eta: "Sanitarium" isn't a typo. I've called him that since his stint in the Senate proved he was completely whackadoodle.

Yep. You're exactly right.

Also, you can't judge a property by its assessed value. You can protest the assessed value. My parent's house jumped in value quite significantly several years ago, but my dad didn't want to pay the increased property taxes since the house's market value wasn't as much as the appraised value. He protested it and got the assessed value down. That could explain the $7 million - $4.5 million change.

An interesting tidbit that needs to be looked in to is the claim that Boob purchased the land for ~$200-300k for the 20 acre parcel. He bragged about it in one of the specials, IIRC, as well as in the first book, adding that the seller was asking $1MM, but after a year and no sale, accepted Boob's deal. It now looks like that story is a complete fabrication. He can still be called out for that; it's nothing close to what appears to have actually taken place.

[Buzzard]

Absolutely nothing can be proven today, and likely this is something that will take a week or more. Courts and court clerks were closed for the holiday and they will have to get corporate records, minutes, officers, articles of incorporation etc for all of the various entities. This is not a simple matter and, in all honesty, the only ones that will be able to figure this out will be law enforcement with subpoena power. I seriously doubt that boob was dumb enought to leave the "smoking gun" paperwork as public record.

When the did the house building episode boob said that he purchased the land and that it was large enough for his kids to build and stay close. What most likely happened is that he purchased it in the name of a corp. Was there a mortgage? Maybe and most likely. They may have transfered the land around a few times to take tax write offs when the property lost value. I'd also be SHOCKED if it is actually worth 4.5 mil. I'm thinking thats the value of more than just the land.

What irks me is that they likely do claim religious exemptions, then do shit like political campaigns. Thats a no no. This will take the work of a serious investigative reporter. I'm not seeing that coming from a tabloid... no matter how hot they are...

[loratliff]

Oh I do agree with you, I may end up being a non story to people who don't know about the Duggars.

If I understand everything correctly though - JB&M had to come up with several million dollars at some point, right? That's just shocking to me that they could put all that into their business, drop a quarter mill on a hopeless political campaign, buy a goddamned touring bus, yet the kids are eating top ramen and wearing used shoes.

That's exactly why they could drop that money though. Just because you have a ton of money doesn't mean you spend it on frivolous things like taking care of your kids, you know. ;)

[tabitha2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again-Jim Bob may sell the the good ole boy aw, shucks image but he is more JR Ewing than Andy Tailor.

[loratliff]

Absolutely nothing can be proven today, and likely this is something that will take a week or more. Courts and court clerks were closed for the holiday and they will have to get corporate records, minutes, officers, articles of incorporation etc for all of the various entities. This is not a simple matter and, in all honesty, the only ones that will be able to figure this out will be law enforcement with subpoena power. I seriously doubt that boob was dumb enought to leave the "smoking gun" paperwork as public record.

Yeah, tax records are notoriously incorrect. I just spent several months working on a story about slumlords in the Bronx and found multiple discrepancies between deed and mortgage documents that the clerk gave me vs. tax records, so I don't trust them entirely.

What irks me is that they likely do claim religious exemptions, then do shit like political campaigns. Thats a no no. This will take the work of a serious investigative reporter. I'm not seeing that coming from a tabloid... no matter how hot they are...

This is absolutely likely happening. The mortgage, not so much.

[Witsec7]

From what I can tell (some of the documents wouldn't open for me) we are just looking at tax records right? What we need is someone to actually go to the courthouse in Arkansas and look up to see if there was ever a Deed of Trust or Mortgage on record if I am following all this correctly.

I was reading the deeds of record which are tied to the tax records and based on the parcel numbers specified.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... k&hl=en_US

[Wolfie]

For other people, this would not be a big deal. However, the Duggars fame is partially built off not having debt. Plus, debt is not always bad. For example, going into debt to buy an affordable safe car is better than paying cash for a junker if you have a child. It is best if you can save for the safer car but not everyone can. The Duggar mindset doesn't take into account situations where a small amount of debt may be advantageous for a family.

Or debt if you be paying less or the same on a mortgage as on your rent, or less for gas than the car loan, ect....

I have an ex boyfriend who for a while was posting about how bad debt was, ect... And that homeowning was "false." (this was posted about the time I bought my house) Then he got married. His wife wanted a house, they bought a house, with a loan. Then he was posting as if it was the first home he'd ever owned, which also was false- he'd owned half of a duplex with his sister.... and now they are Lord and Lady before their names on Facebook. Some people are just a little full of themselves and either lie to make themselves look better, or manage to lie to themselves.

[formergothardite]

So does anyone know where the document that shows the transfer to the Duggars didn't happen till 2009 is?

[Witsec7]

So does anyone know where the document that shows the transfer to the Duggars didn't happen till 2009 is?

I've got one in my email. But I'll try to post a link to the online record.

This is the sequence showing all the deeds. The most current deed is at the top. You click on a deed.

http://www.co.washington.ar.us/Property ... 9&TR=9&V=8

This is the exact deed.

http://www.co.washington.ar.us/Property ... N=01422962

[marmalade]

State of...UTAH? Date of transaction 9/11?

I think this for a completely different parcel of land. My husband and I invested in some cheap land out of state like that; I could see the trying to get a developer involved for tract housing, if the land isn't too far off a beaten path (although that's relative in Utah).

[emmiedahl]

I think the most likely scenario for a bank to own land that a private party is building on would be a mortgage. That's not proof or anything. But it is a typical situation, one that JB swears he didn't partake of.

The tax fraud with the car lot, the shell corporations passing around money, and the tax delinquency (albeit minor) are the smoking guns here.

[ceg045]

I've been poking around the circuit court records up through 1992 (for which you don't need a username) here and found this from 1991 regarding a mortgage dated 1984 and the "indebtedness originally having been owed by" Jim Bob and, interestingly, Deanna. This document is discharging the lien on the property, and JB must have been quite young at the time, but I thought the fact that said indebtedness existed in the first place was interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/784730 ... 1gsacun6yd

Hope this works...I have the .pdf downloaded to my computer if it doesn't. I'm clueless when it comes to property law, so if this is nothing, just ignore me. :)

[emmiedahl]

So he *did* have mortgages and debt at some point, which is counter to the story they put out there.

[tabitha2]

That's not really news;They have mentioned in the books and maybe elsewhere they were in debt years ago until they started following Sammons

[freealljs]

That's not really news;They have mentioned in the books and maybe elsewhere they were in debt years ago until they started following Sammons

I think the issue most of us have is that we know that they had debt early on in their marriage, but they were espousing the wonders of Sammons in 2009 when they owed money on their house.

[Witsec7]

Ok without the technical skills needed to take a screen shot this is the page of the parcel in question with the parcel number from the Arkansas property search. Perhaps later when I regain patience I'll attempt screen shots again. Right now its too frustrating.

I've deleted the tax history and replaced it with XXX and left the deed history.

Record 2 of 9 Last Updated 01/15/12

Parcel Number: 765-16272-001 Prev. Parcel Number: 765-16272-001 Type: AV

Location:

Owner Name: DUGGAR, JAMES R & MICHELLE AREVOCABLE LIVING TRUST

Mailing Address: 548 ARBOR ACRES AVE SPRINGDALE AR 72762-6219

Lot: Block: S-T-R: 24-16-31

Addition: 24-16-31 FAYETTEVILLE OUTLOTS

School District: FAYETTEVILLE SCH, FAY Tax District: 011

City: FAYETTEVILLE

Legal: PT NE SE 29.42 A.

Current Year A79 Credit Status: V

Last Appraised: 2010 Appraised Value Taxable Value

Land 4,250 850

Improvement 0 0

Total 4,250 850

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Deed History

Date Deed Ref. Grantee1 Grantee2 Deed Type Sale Amount Revenue Amount

9/27/2011 2011-27389 DUGGAR, JAMES R & MICHELLE A REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST WD 400,000 1320.00

DMJ 10/4/2011

9/9/2009 2009-30269 ANB VENTURE LLC CD 0

NLB 2009-30269 CD NO REV LINK INCLUDES 765-13701-001 & 765-16272-001

7/11/2007 - BELL COW INC SV 0

2/26/1993 94-11350 BELL COW INC QC 0 0.00

(SEE SURVEY ATTACHED TO OWNERSHIP LEDGER CARD) 94-11351 QCD FROM LARRY W. BELL & YVONNE. 94-11352 QCD FROM CHARLES E. HANKS & ELLEN K.

8/12/1992 92-42898 BELL, LARRY W TRUSTEE LARRY BELL TRUST QC 0 0.00

ALSO 815-24937-000, 760-01197-000. 94-47277 QCD BEHNER TO HANKS???

11/8/1991 1441-35 BELL, LARRY W & PRISCILLA,CO-TR BELL REVOCABLE TRUST WD 300,000 660.00

[persuas1ve]

Unfortunately, they mentioned in the first book that they did have a mortgage for their first house or something of that nature--it's been ages since I read it and then sold it to a used bookstore. Back before they hooked up with Jim Sammons etc.

As far as I know, the only way a bank allows you to build on land they own is via mortgage...

[Kitchen Princess]

That information is not talking about their home. It's a property in Fayetteville. Their home is not in Fayetteville; it's in Tontitown, but it is served by the Springdale post office so they have a Springdale address.

Their home is not even close to Fayetteville. There's no chance it could be in an annexed area or mistakenly in Tonitown but really it's in Fayetteville. Their home is in Tontitown. Otherwise JD could not run for city council there.

All the rest is probably true--the mortgage and all the rest, but it's not about the family home where they live now.