Bringing Up Bates & Other Bates Family Doings

[RosyDaisy]

Just watched this week's episode. Two things:

Kelly and Gil showed are definitely still working on the ATI character qualities with the kids.

And I actually got a couple of parenting pointers from them. :whistle:

It is super easy to getting lulled by this family. That is why they are much better spokespeople for Gothard. The six youngest are adorable. The oldest are all natural and attractive. The middle kids are obnoxious tweens, which they should be. I have never been able to make it through an episode of the Duggar shows. Thankfully, they do chalk art and character qualities as a reminder of what they are really about.

Also Tori or Carlin aid that when they misbehaved, they got a "talking too", and the younger ones are getting away with misbehaving. That would be right around the time they began making appearances on the Duggars show.

[Snarkle]

I still say Michael has the best of all worlds for their restrictive lifestyle. She's off the market, so to speak, so she's not like a Jana waiting for her father to finally allow her to marry someone of his choosing, nor a Maxwell daughter waiting for...ever. Michael is in a courtship so she knows there's someone who wants her, they can both earn some money in the meantime, and although she really wants to have lots of babies, her quiver will be smaller than her parents'.

[Rachel333]

Also Tori or Carlin aid that when they misbehaved, they got a "talking too", and the younger ones are getting away with misbehaving. That would be right around the time they began making appearances on the Duggars show.

It does seem like that happens in most families. As the oldest in my family, my parents were definitely much stricter with me than they have been with the younger ones.

I have no doubt that the younger Bates and Duggars are still being indoctrinated into ATI, but I think they would be much less palatable if people could see how the oldest kids were treated when they were young and before their families were famous.

[calimojo]

I don't know a whole lot about the ATI principles of child rearing, but actually what I saw on last weeks show seemed fine with me. They practiced some scenarios and explained why the kids needed to behave. And I like that they stressed being thoughtful to those around them. I often think that this is something that the younger Duggars haven't been taught, nor has Jim Bob ( thinking of England). What I do find odd is that they make the older kids participate in the same learning sessions, but maybe they are just there to model appropriate behavior.

I used to to the same thing with my kids, in acting out how they were expected to behave at certain functions or places. We would talk about how their misbehavior would be disruptive to others, etc. We tried to make it fun, but also let them know there were consequences if they misbehaved. (time out, removal from the group, etc) On our part, we had to understand that children are not mini-adults so you can't subject them to the same situations and expect good behavior for hours on end. You have to plan on at least one or two disruptions in almost every situation, and you have to be creative with distraction and re-direction.

My impression with Kelly is that she sort of runs her home, with the younger set, somewhat like a day care. They have some daily lessons on behavior, taking turns, being polite, thoughtful etc. She is warmer that Michelle for certain, but she does maintain a more neutral tone with the little ones, which probably helps keep her sane. If you don't stay neutral when dealing with a bunch under 5 year olds you go a little crazy

[whoviana]

It does seem like that happens in most families. As the oldest in my family, my parents were definitely much stricter with me than they have been with the younger ones.

I have no doubt that the younger Bates and Duggars are still being indoctrinated into ATI, but I think they would be much less palatable if people could see how the oldest kids were treated when they were young and before their families were famous.

I don't know if it has anything to do with the age or not... I was definitely the whipping cow and the doormat while growing up and I never forgave it and I don't think I ever will. All rules should apply to every kid about equally. Some kids are used as punching bags for the whole family so that parents can take their anger out on someone and the younger kids can get away with everything. Just because many people practice it regardless of their religion, it is not, in any way, fair. After I moved out and whenever they thought they would get a hold of me, they kept bringing up excuses for the unfair and unequal upbringing of mine, I was given half assed explanation like, the oldest kids are expected to be mini adults all the time in case anything happens to the parents and they are responsible for the younger siblings' acts, wel F*** THAT, if the parents die, all the underage children will be placed somewhere, all of them, with other relatives or in state homes because that's why people pay taxes, no kids deserve to bear the burden of being a mini adult. They have no saying in how many kids their parents make and they rob them of their childhood because, "just in case". I can't fathom this. It's. Not. FAIR! Rant over.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It does seem like that happens in most families. As the oldest in my family, my parents were definitely much stricter with me than they have been with the younger ones.

I have no doubt that the younger Bates and Duggars are still being indoctrinated into ATI, but I think they would be much less palatable if people could see how the oldest kids were treated when they were young and before their families were famous.

As the oldest in a very liberal family, I'm going to say that this is probably an every family thing as well. As my mom likes to put it: you learn with each child, so your oldest children are going to be the most screwed up. =p

[whoviana]

It just seems unfair that the learning experience happens at a child's expense. I grew up in a family who couldn't agree on whether to brainwash us into one catholicism/baptism/greek catholicism, or atheism. By the time I left the house I was on perscription drugs and screwed up beyond recognition.

[calimojo]

I think your experience is probably more extreme than what is normal, and I am sorry as it sounds like a lot for you to have dealt with.

The truth is though, that adults continue to change and modify their views on things just as children do. So sometimes you have strict ideas before you have a kid, then have a kid or two and you modify and decide those things aren't as important as you once thought. But generally the basic values stay the same.

I am sure my oldest thinks we are less strict with the youngest, and we probably are, but we still expect him to be respectful to others, be responsible for his behavior, be loving towards friends and family, be generous in spirit, and be open minded and open hearted. These values were taught equally to both of the kids. Now did we let him stay up later? Sure. Did we let him off the hook from eating his vegetables more than we did the oldest? Probably. Did I baby him a bit more? Maybe. But the values were the same.

[Mama Mia]

I don't know if it has anything to do with the age or not... I was definitely the whipping cow and the doormat while growing up and I never forgave it and I don't think I ever will. All rules should apply to every kid about equally. Some kids are used as punching bags for the whole family so that parents can take their anger out on someone and the younger kids can get away with everything. Just because many people practice it regardless of their religion, it is not, in any way, fair. After I moved out and whenever they thought they would get a hold of me, they kept bringing up excuses for the unfair and unequal upbringing of mine, I was given half assed explanation like, the oldest kids are expected to be mini adults all the time in case anything happens to the parents and they are responsible for the younger siblings' acts, wel F*** THAT, if the parents die, all the underage children will be placed somewhere, all of them, with other relatives or in state homes because that's why people pay taxes, no kids deserve to bear the burden of being a mini adult. They have no saying in how many kids their parents make and they rob them of their childhood because, "just in case". I can't fathom this. It's. Not. FAIR! Rant over.

I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience growing up. It sounds really awful to have that much pressure put on you. Especially if your parents were abusive.

But I think your personal experience distorted your view on a circumstance that happens in the vast majority of families and isn't a huge deal.

Parents do tend to be more relaxed and less strict with younger children . The more kids, and/or the greater the spacing the more pronounced this is.

I think it's due to a number of factors -- with your first child you are more nervous about doing it " right" , you are more convinced that how your child behaves is a direct reflection of how well you are parenting, you don't have the experience to have realistic expectations. You also just flat out have more time and energy. A big factor with being less strict with younger kids is also you have realized that a ton of what kids do that is obnoxious is temporary anyway, and they'll outgrow it whether you respond or not.

I think it's really sad that your parents put so much pressure on you that you would want the system to deal with placing your minor siblings in care if something happened to them.

Obviously their actions towards you had the opposite effect of what they wanted. How counterproductive. Because I'm 100% sure that my oldest kids would have taken care of any younger kids if it was needed.

Also, maybe you could explain more about the religious parts? I don't really understand what you meant. Only if you're comfortable with it of course.

[whoviana]

I was somewhat upset and I do realize that the religious part was totally riffled when I read it again.

So my father was a hardcore atheist, my maternal family was catholic, my uncles and aunts were orthodox greek catholics and my paternal grandparents were hardcore baptists. They couldn't either agree on introducing all religions to us as part of some sort of family heritage that could have taught us tolerance towards people with different backgrounds in general; OR, they could have just kept to their own religions and totally leave it out of our upbringing. There was so much squabbling about it. And, as the oldest kid in the extended family, everyone was trying to take over my mind with their belief system or lack of it. I was the main target of it for over 15 years, they kept dragging me from church to church to church. The younger ones seldom had to visit the church or go through several different kind of indoctrinations in different churches, being left totally confused with the inconsistency. The smallest ones in the family weren't bothered to be sent to any church at all. Somehow, by the time I first started to see school psychiatrists, it had dawned upon the whole family that it's best to leave kids alone and just celebrate each others' holidays in piece. Eureka... It only cost me my sanity, but good for the rest of them.

Some sympathy, respect from my younger siblings that I never got, less abuse and other basic things that make you feel like you are appreciated and loved in the family, would have made my job as the "eldest" and the whipping cow much easier.

I know how it normally goes in those none-dysfunctional families, like with the pacifier. With the eldest baby, they tend to put it in boiling water. Then, with the second child, they just quickly rinse it with hot tap water. And from that on, when the upcoming baby spits their pacifier out, mommy just licks the dirt off and puts it back in the baby's mouth. I know and understand how people loosen up and how older kids have to help out around the house with the chores, and it's still natural to me. This situation was different and way more sinister.

Sorry about the rant, I'm down with some bug and I'm mildly irritated.

And thanks for trying to see things from my point of view.

[Mama Mia]

I'm really sorry your family made you the brunt of all the bad things Whoviana. That's really awful.

The religious part is interesting. Both mine and my husbands families had a big mix of religions too. And almost everyone in our families got married more than once. And we had a blended family - so we also had the alternate parents beliefs to throw into the mix.

So we had -just off the top of my head - between all these people ----agnostics, evangelical Atheists, Keep to themselves Atheists, Baptists, Buddhists , Catholics, Catholic+, an LGBT Friendly Catholic Church ( started by one relative) , Christian Scientists, Episcoplian, Jewish, Jehovah Witness, Methodists, various Mega-Chuches, various New-Age y , Unity Temple and Unitarians. And many of the close relatives went through several of these. And quite a few people who didn't go to church, but had very deep and detailed religious / spiritual convictions.

We never drug the kids to church. A few of them we took to church services sporadically. Some have never stepped foot in a church ( unless they went to a wedding or funeral) But what I think is interesting is that most of them are religious as adults. A couple of them very passionately. And the one who is Atheist is hard-core atheist.

[pega127]

He might, if he had the resources to do so...which I do not think he does.

There are a lot of things I don't like about JB, but he does seem to have decent financial sense and has made some wise investments. Though, to be fair, JB has had the TLC money to work with, so it isn't entirely a fair comparison.

However, the point is that currently, JB CAN offer his offspring houses and jobs, while Gil probably cannot.

Maybe, Gill can give Brandon more speaking parts on their new show!:-$

[Dandruff]

Maybe, Gill can give Brandon more speaking parts on their new show!:-$

I'll be surprised if Brandon doesn't get, or already have, a job with Gothard HQ. If so, perhaps housing will be provided.

[19 cats and counting]

I wonder if Michael and Brandon are already engaged, but they're holding it back until after the proposal airs on the show.

[freethemall]

Have you guys watched the extra "Name that Bates" series of videos on the UP channel? The one with Tori she asks her parents "Which kid is most likely to have 19 kids" and I guess Kelly writes "Michael" at first and then you can hear Tori say "no she's too old". Damn, that girl has some attitude! Same with Carlin, it does make me hopeful for them being at least a little bit more free thinking than the Duggars. I know I know, they're just as evil and ATI and blah blah but still! With Alyssa now wearing pants and sleeveless tops I think these kids are growing up with minds slightly more open.

(snip)

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Sometimes the older kids -in a mainstream environment- who have stricter rules end up much better off. I have a niece who was a surprise and is several years younger than her 2 siblings and she is a freaking brat. I spent tons of time with the older ones and had them over for sleepovers, etc. Can't stand much of the young one. It's not her fault at all, but she literally cannot be trusted for 2 seconds. My daughter stresses out whenever she is here because she doesn't want her stuff destroyed. Her parents just laugh at her, and they were never that way with the others, and I can't undo that for a few hours unfortunately.

[calimojo]

Have you guys watched the extra "Name that Bates" series of videos on the UP channel? The one with Tori she asks her parents "Which kid is most likely to have 19 kids" and I guess Kelly writes "Michael" at first and then you can hear Tori say "no she's too old". Damn, that girl has some attitude! Same with Carlin, it does make me hopeful for them being at least a little bit more free thinking than the Duggars. I know I know, they're just as evil and ATI and blah blah but still! With Alyssa now wearing pants and sleeveless tops I think these kids are growing up with minds slightly more open.

Also, this show and the videos online and are showing way more of Nathan than we've ever seen and I don't know, is anyone else getting somewhat of a flamboyant sense from him, or is just me? Is it just the doogie howser thing and the overly gelled hair?

I think Nathan would have benefited from Speech Therapy has he seems to have a lisp. He seems like a nice kid and I like that they are giving all the older kids anyway, a fair amount of screen time. The filming of the Duggar kids is so skewed towards just a few certain kids. I don't blame the Duggars for that, as it probably is a decision of the directors and producers. But so far, the older Bates children are all getting a fair shake at being on camera, if that is what they want.

I bet Tori was a handful growing up. I enjoy the spontaneity that she and Carlin seem to have, but I do also worry that they are both at an impressionable age right now, and lots of fame and media exposure might not be very good for them. What seems like a spunky personality could teeter on being obnoxious. And if she is going to be forced to choose a future spouse from the fundie pool, she will be viewed as a handful and require a strong hand to "tame her". She just seems like she would be more well suited to a relaxed and easy going guy, not from their church.

[Mama Mia]

Have you guys watched the extra "Name that Bates" series of videos on the UP channel? The one with Tori she asks her parents "Which kid is most likely to have 19 kids" and I guess Kelly writes "Michael" at first and then you can hear Tori say "no she's too old". Damn, that girl has some attitude! Same with Carlin, it does make me hopeful for them being at least a little bit more free thinking than the Duggars. I know I know, they're just as evil and ATI and blah blah but still! With Alyssa now wearing pants and sleeveless tops I think these kids are growing up with minds slightly more open.

Also, this show and the videos online and are showing way more of Nathan than we've ever seen and I don't know, is anyone else getting somewhat of a flamboyant sense from him, or is just me? Is it just the doogie howser thing and the overly gelled hair?

I agree she seems very spunky / bubbly/extroverted in general -- but in not quite sure how the comment about Michael being too old to have 19 kids shows attitude? I mean it's just a biological fact. Didn't hear it, so maybe it was her tone? Sorry, just confused :?

[moreorlessnu]

I bet Tori was a handful growing up. I enjoy the spontaneity that she and Carlin seem to have, but I do also worry that they are both at an impressionable age right now, and lots of fame and media exposure might not be very good for them. What seems like a spunky personality could teeter on being obnoxious. And if she is going to be forced to choose a future spouse from the fundie pool, she will be viewed as a handful and require a strong hand to "tame her". She just seems like she would be more well suited to a relaxed and easy going guy, not from their church.

I wonder if Tori is like that 24/7 because that would get old pretty quickly, especially when there are so many other personalities to deal with.

[snickerz]

According to Kelly the issue is that apparently Brandon spent all his money to put himself through school and now he has to build up some savings.

It sounds like Brandon is at least thinking ahead of the financial burden of marrying a QF woman who hopes to pump out a baby every 12 months like her mom. If I was him I would be...concerned :shock: ...and push the wedding out as long as I could!

[HereticHick]

The Bontrager Family Singers (who have been featured on 19KAC--the Duggars made a big deal about their inability to pronounce "Bontrager") performed in East Tenn recently and went out to eat with a passel of Bates: bontragersingers.blogspot.com/ (scroll down to the "Fellowship with Dear Friends" photo--its #5 or so)

[rosaline]

Have you all seen this video of Lawson and Katie quizzing Callie on American history?

Not having children, I can't tell if this is evidence of Callie being very smart or not. Those of you who've had children or been around them a lot, are five-year-olds normally this good at memorizing? I realized they could have specifically prepped her for these questions, but is even remembering all these questions remarkable or totally normal? I got excited thinking maybe Callie would turn out to be a bit of a genius and be able to reason her way to breaking free, but I would like a reality check if this isn't the case.

(Pure speculation: when she didn't remember one question off the top of her head, it kind of looked like her eyes were scanning something, which made me wonder if Callie has an eidetic memory.)

[nokidsmom]

It sounds like Brandon is at least thinking ahead of the financial burden of marrying a QF woman who hopes to pump out a baby every 12 months like her mom. If I was him I would be...concerned :shock: ...and push the wedding out as long as I could!

Also having put himself through school, while he may be broke right now, it does show he's hardworking. That's a positive in addition to thinking ahead.

[LittleOleMe]

Have you all seen this video of Lawson and Katie quizzing Callie on American history?

Not having children, I can't tell if this is evidence of Callie being very smart or not. Those of you who've had children or been around them a lot, are five-year-olds normally this good at memorizing? I realized they could have specifically prepped her for these questions, but is even remembering all these questions remarkable or totally normal? I got excited thinking maybe Callie would turn out to be a bit of a genius and be able to reason her way to breaking free, but I would like a reality check if this isn't the case.

(Pure speculation: when she didn't remember one question off the top of her head, it kind of looked like her eyes were scanning something, which made me wonder if Callie has an eidetic memory.)

I think it really depends on how much work and effort you put into teaching the child certain things. My four and six year old can look at a map of the world and name the continents and a few countries. They can name states from a US map. That's just something we've worked on a lot. That being said, I'm still pretty impressed with Callie's memorization. She may have been prepped ahead of time but she was still able to spit back the information. I think she legitimately knows this stuff.

On a side note, I'm rather disappointed that the Bateses are teaching their kids the whole "Christopher Columbus founded America" lie. I'm not surprised, though.

[Minnesota]

Is Nathan in college? I distantly remember something about him wanting to become a pastor. I'm too sure about this but don't pastors not make any money from the position? It's going to be hard to raise a quiver on even less than what Gil makes.