Ken explains why Lori's right and we're wrong

[littlemommy]

Yet another Lori post about women not working outside the home.

So it occurred to me that maybe once, years ago, Ken suggested the kids were old enough for Lori to return to work. Since that moment she has devoted her entire life to proving God doesn't want her to do that.

[feministxtian]

This is the paragraph that kills me..

"It's just TOO much to ask women with children to hold down a career, keep a strong marriage by being a help meet to her husband, train her children in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord, and keep a clean and tidy home. Be wise in the decisions you make, women. Our decisions have far-reaching consequences for our children and society."

Lori, it may have been "too much" for you, but there's millions of us who have done it and are doing it.

[browncoatslytherin]

Yet another Lori post about women not working outside the home.

So it occurred to me that maybe once, years ago, Ken suggested the kids were old enough for Lori to return to work. Since that moment she has devoted her entire life to proving God doesn't want her to do that.

it's because of her "ministry". her homemaking and "ministry" is far more important than working outside the home.

[browncoatslytherin]

This is the paragraph that kills me..

"It's just TOO much to ask women with children to hold down a career, keep a strong marriage by being a help meet to her husband, train her children in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord, and keep a clean and tidy home. Be wise in the decisions you make, women. Our decisions have far-reaching consequences for our children and society."

Lori, it may have been "too much" for you, but there's millions of us who have done it and are doing it.

lori's a delicate little flower who obviously just can't handle anything.

going to school and working certainly isn't the easiest thing to do, and i'm certainly glad i didn't end up doing it for long (i worked for my last two terms, which are ten weeks...i was taking four evening classes the next to last term and two evening classes the last term). and i certainly felt burnt out and exhausted after leaving the house at 7am, working a full day, then going immediately to school and then usually walking a mile back home and getting back at about 10 or 10:30 or so at night...lather, rinse, repeat. it's not fun. it's exhausting. and i didn't even have a family to take care of at that time. but other classmates did do that and were able to push through. it's doable, bottom line. lori just doesn't want to do anything that she doesn't want to do, period.

[lilwriter85]

I'm a bit surprised, Lori touched on the topic of home businesses or other things to add to the income.

Before you get all riled up, I am not saying we should go back to the time when women didn't haven't any economic opportunities. In my opinion, if a wife wants to add to her family's income or has some extra time, she should figure out a way to make some money from home where she could still manage the home and family, yet be her own boss and not some other man. She could care for a few extra children, run an etsy shop, cook for others, get into photography, or find something that uses her talents and that she enjoys. With the Internet, there are many ways a woman could find a way to bring in some extra cash. I know many women help their husbands with their business. Just make sure you keep your marriage and family as your top priority!

Now, there are many women, who are doing those things for a second family income. But Lori doesn't realize that even when you working from home or running a home based business, you are still not devoting all of your time to your husband, home, and kids. Running a side photography business would likely require you to be out of the house part of the time, unless you set up a studio in your home. But some customers will request outdoor pictures at locations they select and if you refuse to go out and photograph them, they will take their money elsewhere.

I find it interesting that Lori mentions "She could care for a few extra children" which means babysitting while their parents work. I'm surprised Lori would suggest something like that to SAHMs when she dislikes women working outside of the home.

[Firiel]

I'm a bit surprised, Lori touched on the topic of home businesses or other things to add to the income.

Now, there are many women, who are doing those things for a second family income. But Lori doesn't realize that even when you working from home or running a home based business, you are still not devoting all of your time to your husband, home, and kids. Running a side photography business would likely require you to be out of the house part of the time, unless you set up a studio in your home. But some customers will request outdoor pictures at locations they select and if you refuse to go out and photograph them, they will take their money elsewhere.

I find it interesting that Lori mentions "She could care for a few extra children" which means babysitting while their parents work. I'm surprised Lori would suggest something like that to SAHMs when she dislikes women working outside of the home.

It's probably because Cabinetman says its okay!

[jerkit]

Lori is so very stupid.

Her first sentence of this post:

With wives getting education and careers, do they really need a husband to provide for them?

Susan comments:

I don't see anything wrong with getting an education. I was valedictorian of ny graduating class but didn't go to college. My husband and I got married the summer after graduation and I went to work. When my husband graduated, I was pregnant and never worked again. We have been married 38 years and raised 3 wonderful children and I have no regrets about that. I do, however, wish I had gone to college. At the time it wasn't important to me.

Lori responds:

I am not sure what you are referring to, Susan, since I didn't say anything about women not getting educations.

Lori, Lori, Lori. :cray-cray:

[Firiel]

This is the paragraph that kills me..

"It's just TOO much to ask women with children to hold down a career, keep a strong marriage by being a help meet to her husband, train her children in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord, and keep a clean and tidy home. Be wise in the decisions you make, women. Our decisions have far-reaching consequences for our children and society."

Lori, it may have been "too much" for you, but there's millions of us who have done it and are doing it.

I actually think there is some truth to that, and I think that's what "The Second Stage" (which Lori claims is written by a feminist who realized that she got it all wrong) is actually pointing out.

Having a vast majority of the parenting and household duties, as well as working a full-time job, especially one that is prestigious, is a lot. And while it's perfectly possible for people to do it (single parents, for instance, don't have much of an option otherwise), it's a lot to expect someone to do, especially when there is a spouse in the picture. Books like "The Second Stage" address, in part, the fact that the additional options for women in the workplace led to many cases of "the double enslavement of women at work and at home" (Wikipedia phrasing). I see this a lot in my parents generation (my ex-in-laws are a great example) where both parties work full-time, but where the woman is expected to do all the cooking and household chores, as well as being the more involved parent.

Now, that isn't to say that feminism was wrong. What that is to say is that feminism is more than just allowing the woman work outside the home. It also calls for men to take up traditional household chores and do the things that were typically defined as "woman's work."

[Hisey]

I think Lori means caring for small children in her home. Like running a home daycare. Because then she'd be home. And home is where all women need to be, all the time.

Her daughter-in-law, Erin, runs a small floral business (as in, providing flowers for weddings). So I think that's why Lori has given the nod to small, home-based businesses.

[feministxtian]

I actually think there is some truth to that, and I think that's what "The Second Stage" (which Lori claims is written by a feminist who realized that she got it all wrong) is actually pointing out.

Having a vast majority of the parenting and household duties, as well as working a full-time job, especially one that is prestigious, is a lot. And while it's perfectly possible for people to do it (single parents, for instance, don't have much of an option otherwise), it's a lot to expect someone to do, especially when there is a spouse in the picture. Books like "The Second Stage" address, in part, the fact that the additional options for women in the workplace led to many cases of "the double enslavement of women at work and at home" (Wikipedia phrasing). I see this a lot in my parents generation (my ex-in-laws are a great example) where both parties work full-time, but where the woman is expected to do all the cooking and household chores, as well as being the more involved parent.

Now, that isn't to say that feminism was wrong. What that is to say is that feminism is more than just allowing the woman work outside the home. It also calls for men to take up traditional household chores and do the things that were typically defined as "woman's work."

Well, that's when you tell the old man AND the kids to get up off their asses and contribute. But, that's not being "submissive"...screw that shit. I worked, took care of a family and my mother, dealt with the STBX's bullshit, and managed to survive.

Yeah, it's a full plate, but then again, I'm not little delicate flower Lori who can't get her shit together enough to evacuate in case of fire w/o a man to tell me what to do...

[salex]

With wives getting education and careers, do they really need a husband to provide for them?

This is what I could never get Ken to understand about my life.

I don't "need" my husband to provide for me. I can and do earn enough to live on. My husband does not "need" me for either my income production or my cooking skills, or even for the frequent, enthusiastic sex.

We are and have been together for the last 35 years because we both "want" to be together.

Neither would starve or be penniless without one another. Whatever dependence we have on one another, it is not to the point of mere survival on the food and money to live level. I would say that my husband knowing he is loved for more than his paycheck and me knowing I'm not viewed, ever, as someone who might be sticking around just for the creature comforts makes the relationship wholly different than if he and I both thought I had no other options.

[lilwriter85]

With wives getting education and careers, do they really need a husband to provide for them?

Lori, there are probably been many answers to your question. Many women train or get educated for careers because they have interest and want those careers. Some careers aren't too high paying and their things factor in as well such as: cost of living in your area, job stability, family size, and additional life expenses. We already know that Lori will always hate the idea of women working outside the home. But she doesn't care that some couples both desire careers for better financial stability.

[feministxtian]

Lori, there are probably been many answers to your question. Many women train or get educated for careers because they have interest and want those careers. Some careers aren't too high paying and their things factor in as well such as: cost of living in your area, job stability, family size, and additional life expenses. We already know that Lori will always hate the idea of women working outside the home. But she doesn't care that some couples both desire careers for better financial stability.

Let's see...I LOVE what I do. I think it's great fun to be paid to essentially play a video game all day. I get to go see all kinds of really neat shit, travel a bit, and occasionally see the fruits of my labors profiled on the Discovery Channel. Yes, it also pays quite well, so NO I don't "need" a husband. I wanted one...but now not so sure I want him back. He's NEVER "provided" for me, I've always made more money.

There's an ENORMOUS difference between needing someone to put a roof over my head, food in my gut and clothes on my back and wanting to be with someone because they suit you. The former almost seems like indentured servitude, the latter, equality. I know which one I prefer.

[browncoatslytherin]

Let's see...I LOVE what I do. I think it's great fun to be paid to essentially play a video game all day. I get to go see all kinds of really neat shit, travel a bit, and occasionally see the fruits of my labors profiled on the Discovery Channel. Yes, it also pays quite well, so NO I don't "need" a husband. I wanted one...but now not so sure I want him back. He's NEVER "provided" for me, I've always made more money.

There's an ENORMOUS difference between needing someone to put a roof over my head, food in my gut and clothes on my back and wanting to be with someone because they suit you. The former almost seems like indentured servitude, the latter, equality. I know which one I prefer.

i like your job description, there! without giving too many details you'd be uncomfortable giving out here, can you tell me what you do? like, if there's a general job title, what schooling you took, how you got into it, etc.

[formergothardite]

To Lori, the only reason a woman would want a husband is for his money. What a sad life to live.

[lilwriter85]

To Lori, the only reason a woman would want a husband is for his money. What a sad life to live.

Yup. She is an idiot and many her beliefs are sad.

[BrownieMomma]

Lori kind of has a point.

After my Christian husband divorced me, I had less than zero desire to ever be married again. I saw no option for me other than to work and raise my children. He also abandoned our children, which is a factor in how things are today with me and my kids.

Since I had to work, might as well make as much money as possible. Might as well go back to school and finish that bachelor's degree. I did that, and now I have a career job and I'm so worn out on the inside there is no real enjoyment in my life other than stolen moments here and there.

I'm not good at anything anymore. I used to be a competent person and people could rely on me but now it's more like people do for me because they feel sorry for "the single mom.'

My house is straightened up, not clean. I've been studying for the CPA exam for a year now, miserably failed all attempts and by Feb will lose access to the $3k study course. Such an enormous waste of money and I feel sick at heart to think I'm never going to be able to accomplish my certification. I feel like I'm always running, trying to spend just a few more min with my teens.

Honestly, the only thing that keeps me going is the hope that my children will have far better adulthoods than childhoods.

My kids deserve so much better than growing up like this. I have a thin thread of care left, and it's all for them, really.

[feministxtian]

i like your job description, there! without giving too many details you'd be uncomfortable giving out here, can you tell me what you do? like, if there's a general job title, what schooling you took, how you got into it, etc.

I am a mechanical/piping designer. I spent 10 years designing Naval Nuclear piping systems for aircraft carriers and submarines. I have a 2 year AAS degree from a community college that had an excellent CADD/Engineering tech curriculum developed in conjunction with my former employer and a couple of other high-tech companies (including NASA). Some of my instructors were crusty old NASA engineers who had the most incredible stories to tell. Through them, I also got to meet many of my personal heroes including Christopher Kraft, Gene Kranz and Buzz Aldrin.

I now work for an Engineering and Construction company in Las Vegas NV. I'm the ONLY mech/piping designer in the place and I do a lot of 3D design (hence the video game aspect). I LOVE IT!!!!

[Firiel]

Lori kind of has a point.

After my Christian husband divorced me, I had less than zero desire to ever be married again. I saw no option for me other than to work and raise my children. He also abandoned our children, which is a factor in how things are today with me and my kids.

Since I had to work, might as well make as much money as possible. Might as well go back to school and finish that bachelor's degree. I did that, and now I have a career job and I'm so worn out on the inside there is no real enjoyment in my life other than stolen moments here and there.

I'm not good at anything anymore. I used to be a competent person and people could rely on me but now it's more like people do for me because they feel sorry for "the single mom.'

My house is straightened up, not clean. I've been studying for the CPA exam for a year now, miserably failed all attempts and by Feb will lose access to the $3k study course. Such an enormous waste of money and I feel sick at heart to think I'm never going to be able to accomplish my certification. I feel like I'm always running, trying to spend just a few more min with my teens.

Honestly, the only thing that keeps me going is the hope that my children will have far better adulthoods than childhoods.

My kids deserve so much better than growing up like this. I have a thin thread of care left, and it's all for them, really.

This is what I was talking about above.

Though I fall to the temptation of "look what I do compared to fundies" at times (I try not to, but alas!), the practice bothers me sometimes because (at times) it flirts with the line of making people who aren't super-human feel less-than.

Working full-time and going to school full-time and being a full-time parent are all hard things, and they are even harder to do together. Not everyone, even amongst generally healthy people, can healthily juggle the same amount of responsibilities. And they shouldn't have to. A person shouldn't have to run themselves ragged trying to DO IT ALL. If they choose to... great! And sometimes, like BrownieMomma and feministxian, life forces us to, despite what we want. But a lot of times, families NEED the double income, but it's the women who are still doing all the work taking care of the home, for no real reason other than the societal expectation that women do women's work. Someone saying, "That's too much for me" and being a stay-at-home mom or working but hiring a maid doesn't necessarily make them a delicate, incapable flower.* (It does make them privileged, and if they don't recognize that, it makes them an asshat.) It just means they are taking advantage of the options that feminism has given them. Same goes for men.

*Note that I'm not saying Lori ISN'T a delicate flower. :lol: I'm speaking just in general terms here. I totally think Lori is lazy.

[polecat]

I'm a bit surprised, Lori touched on the topic of home businesses or other things to add to the income.

Not even going to lie ... first thing I thought when I saw this was "WEB CAM GIRL!!!" I wonder if Lori has some new aspirations?

[browncoatslytherin]

I am a mechanical/piping designer. I spent 10 years designing Naval Nuclear piping systems for aircraft carriers and submarines. I have a 2 year AAS degree from a community college that had an excellent CADD/Engineering tech curriculum developed in conjunction with my former employer and a couple of other high-tech companies (including NASA). Some of my instructors were crusty old NASA engineers who had the most incredible stories to tell. Through them, I also got to meet many of my personal heroes including Christopher Kraft, Gene Kranz and Buzz Aldrin.

I now work for an Engineering and Construction company in Las Vegas NV. I'm the ONLY mech/piping designer in the place and I do a lot of 3D design (hence the video game aspect). I LOVE IT!!!!

that sounds really awesome. my dad was in engineering (when he wasn't pastoring) but he mainly did stuff relating to windows. he actually helped design some special windows at his last company. he didn't really use computers other than using the cadd program (which was confusing as hell when i played around with it lol) and though i know there are lots of different things engineers can do, it's always interesting to hear them. :)

[BrownieMomma]

I am 50 and I have generally found that among all ages of women that I know, they are still carrying the lion's share at home.

Maybe it is just a long process of social change. I would never in one million billion eleventy years want to turn the clock back to women trapped in marriages to abusive husbands because there was just no realistic option to leave and support the children.

As beat down as I feel, I would still rather be doing this than stuck in some horrible marriage. Witnessed that growing up, no thanks. My kids are doing better internally than I ever did, even though I grew up in an intact family that went to church every time the doors flew open.

I emphasize to my daughter to be wise about her heart and her sexuality, that children are a life-changing commitment, that sex makes babies, and don't have babies until she has the means to support herself plus any children she might have. I sure don't want her having to get education or trying to jumpstart a career plus have several little ones at home.

I try to teach my sons to be equitable around the house. They just don't care. 25 and 16. They do not care if the floor gets mopped ever. They do not care if wet towels get moldy. They just think very very differently from me, and my daughter thinks a lot like me, as far seeing what needs to be done and doing it.

My daughter could really fend for herself pretty well at age 14. She understands a lot about running a home, managing food. The boys? not so much.

There is a new duplex with both units renting. I joke to the kids that I'm going to rent them with boys in one and girls in the other. The boys immediately groan how theirs will be dirty and they'll never have food. We all know the girls side will be clean, nicely decorated, and probably smell yummy from the daughter cooking something.

It irritates me so much when I am at work, and some of the ladies have to rush home to cook dinner or their husbands will get mad or go hungry. Or they have to hurry and get the kids bc somehow all that stuff is just their job and they don't even seem to expect their husband will pick up kids, stop by the store, whip up some dinner or heck even go thru a drive through.

But maybe, just maybe, we are all evolving to a world where men and women are equally valued and equally content.

[salex]

What strikes me is how people are more understanding of hiring someone to mow and weed whack than to vacuum and clean the bathroom.

Do people always toss around the privilege card when people hire a neighbor kid or lawn service to mow? Not so much, which is why I've observed people are less reticent about discussing their lawn mowing service than the fact they have a housekeeper in every week or two.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I am 50 and I have generally found that among all ages of women that I know, they are still carrying the lion's share at home.

Maybe it is just a long process of social change. I would never in one million billion eleventy years want to turn the clock back to women trapped in marriages to abusive husbands because there was just no realistic option to leave and support the children.

As beat down as I feel, I would still rather be doing this than stuck in some horrible marriage. Witnessed that growing up, no thanks. My kids are doing better internally than I ever did, even though I grew up in an intact family that went to church every time the doors flew open.

I emphasize to my daughter to be wise about her heart and her sexuality, that children are a life-changing commitment, that sex makes babies, and don't have babies until she has the means to support herself plus any children she might have. I sure don't want her having to get education or trying to jumpstart a career plus have several little ones at home.

I try to teach my sons to be equitable around the house. They just don't care. 25 and 16. They do not care if the floor gets mopped ever. They do not care if wet towels get moldy. They just think very very differently from me, and my daughter thinks a lot like me, as far seeing what needs to be done and doing it.

My daughter could really fend for herself pretty well at age 14. She understands a lot about running a home, managing food. The boys? not so much.

There is a new duplex with both units renting. I joke to the kids that I'm going to rent them with boys in one and girls in the other. The boys immediately groan how theirs will be dirty and they'll never have food. We all know the girls side will be clean, nicely decorated, and probably smell yummy from the daughter cooking something.

It irritates me so much when I am at work, and some of the ladies have to rush home to cook dinner or their husbands will get mad or go hungry. Or they have to hurry and get the kids bc somehow all that stuff is just their job and they don't even seem to expect their husband will pick up kids, stop by the store, whip up some dinner or heck even go thru a drive through.

But maybe, just maybe, we are all evolving to a world where men and women are equally valued and equally content.

[Hugs] I read about all the stress that you're under with the CPA exam. PLEASE get your kids - including the boys - to pick up some of the slack, even if they suck at it. They'll learn. Make a chart, give some basic instructions, and then make it clear that everyone has a job to do. Your job is to put food on the table. They can cook it and clean up after.

[Rebelwife]

This is what I was talking about above.

Though I fall to the temptation of "look what I do compared to fundies" at times (I try not to, but alas!), the practice bothers me sometimes because (at times) it flirts with the line of making people who aren't super-human feel less-than.

Working full-time and going to school full-time and being a full-time parent are all hard things, and they are even harder to do together. Not everyone, even amongst generally healthy people, can healthily juggle the same amount of responsibilities. And they shouldn't have to. A person shouldn't have to run themselves ragged trying to DO IT ALL. If they choose to... great! And sometimes, like BrownieMomma and feministxian, life forces us to, despite what we want. But a lot of times, families NEED the double income, but it's the women who are still doing all the work taking care of the home, for no real reason other than the societal expectation that women do women's work. Someone saying, "That's too much for me" and being a stay-at-home mom or working but hiring a maid doesn't necessarily make them a delicate, incapable flower.* (It does make them privileged, and if they don't recognize that, it makes them an asshat.) It just means they are taking advantage of the options that feminism has given them. Same goes for men.

This is so true. I am a SAHM, and have been since my first daughter was born over 15 years ago. My kids are in middle school and high school now and I love the fact that I can still stay home. I also have mental health issues that mean I function better with lower stress - so not adding a full time job is better for our family dynamic in general. (I laugh because other than being a liberal feminist who attends a gay affirming Episcopalian church, the fundies would love me. Hubby goes to work and I stay home and take on most of the household and child rearing duties.)

The thing is, I recognize how incredibly PRIVILEGED I am to be able to make this choice. If something happened to my husband, could I go back to work and make it? Yes, I have a degree and job experience and have kept up to date in my field with lots of volunteer hours. I could do it but lots of other things would suffer, including my children to some degree. I just wish others could make the same choices if they needed too - that's one reason I am a huge proponent of paid parental leave.

*Edited to finish a thought.