Caleb Williams

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

The poster you quoted (whom I have thankfully ignored so that I can choose whether to see her posts) obviously has her head so far up her ass that no amount of explanation or remonstrance will do any good. I admire your effort, but it's useless. She's either looking to stir shit or has taken a PhD in willful ignorance. Or both. 

"There are none so blind as those who refuse to see."

Apparently! I don't know what she's expecting - that we'll read her trash and go, "Ohhh, okay! The first fifty times you explained that a 15-year-old was totally at fault for seducing an adult man, we thought you were perpetuating rape culture and blaming the victim, but now that you've explained it fifty-one times we can totally see where you're coming from! Our bad"?

The ignore function is a beautiful thing.

[RosyDaisy]

I HAD bowed out of this. This is the last time I'm saying it. She was all for it. She was an active participant in the relationship. Whether you like/dislike the statement, that's the truth of it. Her parents didn't care. His parents knew, conversed with her parents and everything. At 18 and 19 respectively, when told to butt out by both the couple and both sets of their parents, the ex and I did just that. 
NOW I have a totally different opinion and would report that shit IN A HEARTBEAT.  DONE. OVER. 

Bitch, please! You are a rape apologist! If you feel differently now, you wouldn't have described this girl the way you did. That's all sorts of fucked up. It's people like you that nake victims not want to come forward.

[singsingsing]

Here's a similar hypothetical scenario. If a 15-year-old girl met a 22-year-old man online and offered to send him nudes, and he accepted, and then she said, "Oh, by the way, I'm 15" and he still accepted, and then he got busted and charged with possession of child pornography (or even luring a child), who do you think is at fault in the situation? The 15-year-old girl because she 'came onto him', or the 22-year-old man who knowingly accepted the advances of an underage girl? I'll give you a hint: the grown ass man in the situation is in BIG TROUBLE, and if you think he was the victim you're a piece of shit.

[Aine]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:47 AM, Buzzard said:

I will either clear things up with this post or make people want to puke.  I'm not sure how this will go, but this is the law in Illinois (disclaimer - I am not an illinois attorney):

Illinois does not have "rape."  They have "Criminal Sexual Assault."  The definition is in two parts, Criminal Sexual Assault and Aggravated Criminal Sexual Assault.  Agg is relevant here because thats how he's charged in the indictment, you must meet the factors in criminal sexual assault to sustain agg sexual assault:

Criminal Sexual Assault is:

 

The key difference between Agg Crim Sexual Assault and Crim Sexual Assault are the force factors.  The fact that they charged it this way tells us:

1 - The victim is someone he held "a position of trust, authority, or supervision" over or is a family member (family member is unlikely based on the word choice mirroring the statute) and

2 - consent is unlikely based on the charging of the aggravating charge.  One of the "aggravating circumstances" must be present or they would have charged just Crim sexual assault.

This charge, if convicted, WILL result in prison time.  Probation is not an option.

YES! I'm doing the thing that I swore not to do as I'm only 6 pages into a thread and want to comment before reading the other 11 pages but all these people saying that she maybe consented and now wants "revenge" due to a failed relationship? That would be statutory rape- statutory takes into account 'consent' even if the age gap or age of one party is too young to consent. This is not the charge here. As someone who has been sexually assaulted repeatedly by someone in power, while underage, and it would have fallen into the "aggravated" category, a grand jury would not be indicting for a simple "he said, she said" and they would have pled down already to statutory if that is what this truly was. 

You don't get indicted on multiple charges like this without reason, especially as a white Christian man. That does not mean he is guilty but I'll take the side of this young woman any day and will take no shame in being incorrect because of the sheer number of women who are assaulted daily and their case never makes it to a grand jury or a trial despite it being the truth. 

Whoever said that 8-10% of reports are untrue?! That is no less than any other form of felony crime. The difference is that burglary or felony assault or grand larceny or murder go to a grand jury and to trial far more readily than a sexual assault case and the burden of proof is often much higher in sexual assault cases because of attitudes just like yours. Attitudes like that are the reason women and men do not report. People don't generally hesitate to contact the cops after their house is burgaled because even though the same amount of people make that up, no one generally doubts them. The same is not true for traumatized victims of sexual assault- where 80-90% of perpetrators are known to the victim, making it even more difficult. 

[SilverBeach]

I just watched the third and fourth installment of "Surviving R. Kelly" on the Lifetime channel. It is so relevant to this discussion. I have long despised R. Kelly as a known child predator and sexual abuser. This documentary makes it clear that young girls can seem to be "all for it" and "willing participants" but are actually manipulated victims of criminals like R. Kelly. I almost lost my dinner, it's a hard watch. The final two episodes are tomorrow night. This expose is long overdue and I hope this reprehensible piece of shit finally gets the ostracism he deserves, since he has escaped prison so far. He has had many enablers and supporters that are complicit in his evil deeds (he did some real nasty shit). The only person who should be derided in Shadoewolf's situation is the ADULT MAN. I don't understand why she can't or won't see that whether the girl wanted it or not, the ADULT MAN should have shut it down, full stop. Going to look at kitty pictures now.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

30 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Apparently! I don't know what she's expecting - that we'll read her trash and go, "Ohhh, okay! The first fifty times you explained that a 15-year-old was totally at fault for seducing an adult man, we thought you were perpetuating rape culture and blaming the victim, but now that you've explained it fifty-one times we can totally see where you're coming from! Our bad"?

The ignore function is a beautiful thing.

No, sing3, you're misunderstanding.

It's fine, in fact necessary, to blame a rape victim if she came from a neglected home where her parents didn't care.

Protection and support are only for the virginal who embraced purity culture, and whose parents were concerned for their well being.

The rest are all asking for it.

I hope I cleared things up for you.

[AliceInFundyland]

The problem with the ignore function is that if you found yourself involved at one point it becomes virtually impossible to shut the poster or discussion off if it pops up again. So in order:

@Shadoewolf Active participant is still not a legal participant. You just have to say I was wrong. I would do it differently now is not the same thing. 

@VeryNikeSeamstress I accidentally clicked out of this thread and found a charming photo of your dogs in sweaters. That was fabulous. Thank you!

@singsingsing I appreciate your energy for repeating on this.

[Kailash]

I feel like Shadoewolf would report it now, but be disappointed when only the adult man got punished, because she still doesn’t understand consent. Maybe she believes a 15 year old is an adult regardless of what the law says? 

[Shadoewolf]

Considering I KNOW this girl, and have for the good part of 20 years, I can absolutely describe her and the situation as it was. But to shut everyone the fuck up, I'll text her about this tomorrow and post said conversation afterward. And btw, she has a degree in psych so she can adequately explain. And best watch who you call a bitch when its about to blow up in your face when you read her account. 

[Kailash]

Nothing she says can change the fact that she was a child and he was an adult. Nothing.

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Considering I KNOW this girl, and have for the good part of 20 years, I can absolutely describe her and the situation as it was. But to shut everyone the fuck up, I'll text her about this tomorrow and post said conversation afterward. And btw, she has a degree in psych so she can adequately explain. And best watch who you call a bitch when its about to blow up in your face when you read her account. 

No, you will not fucking do that. Are you out of your goddamn mind? Do NOT bring that shit here. You need to step back. Seriously. You are way, way, WAY out of line and you do not need to be digging yourself any deeper or making this any worse than it already is. What is wrong with you? 

[dawbs]

18 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

Considering I KNOW this girl, and have for the good part of 20 years, I can absolutely describe her and the situation as it was. But to shut everyone the fuck up, I'll text her about this tomorrow and post said conversation afterward. And btw, she has a degree in psych so she can adequately explain. And best watch who you call a bitch when its about to blow up in your face when you read her account. 

This does not seem like a kind thing to do to a 'friend' (whose kids are friends with your kids).
It sounds like wanting to be right enough that you'd be incredibly cruel to a friend.  

“It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you.”-Mark Twain

[dawbs]

since I'm caught up w/ this thread enough now, I'll say especially when this isn't someone who put their life out for public consumption and blogged about it.  This is someone who was used as an object lesson because of similarities between their life and a 'D-list fundie's rape charges.
 

[AliceInFundyland]

You don’t even respect her enough to call her a woman. Dear lord almighty. Please step away from the internet. You have completely lost perspective on this situation. Whatever/whoever she is to you... Whatever FJ is to you... it cannot possibly mean this much?

[Georgiana]

@Shadoewolf, before you post anything from this woman, I would like you to consider that this is a public forum. If she has a degree in any medical field and is considering pursuing a career in said medical field, comments defending this situation may have a very real impact on her career or her ability to pursue a license/career in the future. 

I would encourage you to leave this in her hands. If she chooses to come here to “explain the situation”, that’s fine. But before she does so, she should consider how this could impact her life to make such comments publicly. It should be her call, so entirely that she should set up her own account for it so she can bear all accountability. 

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@Shadoewolf I get what you are trying to say with all of this. The woman you know is perfectly OK with what happened to her as a 15 year old, she's still married to the man still and see's no harm no foul. However, the issue that you are missing is that her at 15 & and he at 22, what they did is considered statutory rape.  Even if she consented, even if she, as you said "knew what she was doing", it is still a crime.  Because she was not old enough to consent, and that is the point everyone is trying to get you to see. He should have said no but he didn't, and that is all on him, he was the adult, she was a child. A child who was not old enough to legally say yes to sex with a person his age.  Her being happy now is beside the point, her thinking it was fine is beside the point, the point is, what he did was a crime, a crime he willingly committed. Even IF she knew what she was doing, it was still a crime on his part, because when a 22 year old man has sex with a 15 year old girl it is considered statutory rape.  Do you get this? I think you are missing this point,

That all said, I don't care if she is happy now, or if she thinks what she did was fine, it wasn't. It sounds like she came from a fucked up family and found herself an out with this guy, but is she REALLY happy with her choices?  Would she allow her 15 year old child to be sexually active with a 22 year old? I'm guessing she wouldn't, because she knows it is wrong. 

Oh, and please don't ask her to relive all of that for our sake. We know what you are saying we get it, we just disagree with you, and for whatever reason you can't accept that we aren't finding some level of agreement in your argument. Just know that none of us will because we all seem to understand the 1 thing you are missing, that a crime was committed, and that crime cannot be blamed on the 15 year old, no matter how willing a participant she was. 

[Gobsmacked]

3 hours ago, dawbs said:

This does not seem like a kind thing to do to a 'friend' (whose kids are friends with your kids).
It sounds like wanting to be right enough that you'd be incredibly cruel to a friend.  

“It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you.”-Mark Twain

The Mark Twain quote sums up the way my sister and her useless oaf of a partner work together. Thankyou Dawbs. 

[JordynDarby5]

4 hours ago, Aine said:

YES! I'm doing the thing that I swore not to do as I'm only 6 pages into a thread and want to comment before reading the other 11 pages but all these people saying that she maybe consented and now wants "revenge" due to a failed relationship? That would be statutory rape- statutory takes into account 'consent' even if the age gap or age of one party is too young to consent. This is not the charge here. As someone who has been sexually assaulted repeatedly by someone in power, while underage, and it would have fallen into the "aggravated" category, a grand jury would not be indicting for a simple "he said, she said" and they would have pled down already to statutory if that is what this truly was. 

You don't get indicted on multiple charges like this without reason, especially as a white Christian man. That does not mean he is guilty but I'll take the side of this young woman any day and will take no shame in being incorrect because of the sheer number of women who are assaulted daily and their case never makes it to a grand jury or a trial despite it being the truth. 

Exactly, I admit I am always suspicious when its claim that someone under age consented to sex. Maybe she did but it doesn't make it right. Because she's underage and that's illegal. And if anyone real adult who happened to accidentally find themselves attracted that should end as soon as they hear the age. That's too young, its wrong and kids under eighteen don't always make the best judgment lack of experience and stuff. A real adult would and should back off for all those reasons. But the other part is that is what those accused say all the time. That he or she consented!  Its the argument brought up in the press or court usually when the accused can't explain away that they didn't have sex. Well, then its switches to it was totally consented. They are always claiming she wanted it or he wanted it no matter young they are. Claiming that he or she came onto him, flirted with him, etc. Its disgusting and bullshit. 

 

Quote

Whoever said that 8-10% of reports are untrue?! That is no less than any other form of felony crime. The difference is that burglary or felony assault or grand larceny or murder go to a grand jury and to trial far more readily than a sexual assault case and the burden of proof is often much higher in sexual assault cases because of attitudes just like yours. Attitudes like that are the reason women and men do not report. People don't generally hesitate to contact the cops after their house is burgaled because even though the same amount of people make that up, no one generally doubts them. The same is not true for traumatized victims of sexual assault- where 80-90% of perpetrators are known to the victim, making it even more difficult. 

This is pretty much the number one reason why victims don't come forward. Because that is exactly what happens. People with those attitudes are the exact reason so many men get away with molesting, assaulting and raping. From the moment a girl no matter what her age presses charges she gets treated like crap. She gets interrogated, she gets questioned about everything as everyone looks for "reasons" why its her fault. She wore a sexy outfit, she had too much to drink, what was she doing there anyway, she took it the wrong way, why didn't she fight him off? It only gets worse if it ever gets to trial. Which is a big if and if it does those are the exact reasons that juries find him not guilty. Victims see what happens to other victims. Look at poor Samantha Gailey and how she was treated because she dared to accuse a famous director of rape. Who cares that he that he raped a thirteen year old girl. Everyone flocked to his defense. Look at how Ford was recently treated. That is the norm in every state when ever a boy no matter his age is accused of molesting, assault or rape so many people practically trip over themselves to protect the poor boy from the girl. Who wants to go through that? Especially when in most cases he will never go to jail? The frat boy in Texas who got a small fine and slap on the wrist. Why does she never get believed? Why is the boy automatically believed or at most people don't think his life was ruined because of one mistake. Rape is not a mistake. Assault is not a mistake. Molesting is not a mistake. Congratulations to all of those people. You just help a boy get away with assault. You are the reasons why victims don't come forward. If it weren't then so many more would be in jail. Cosby, Weinstein and Nassar wouldn't have been allowed to abuse as long as they did. 

[Kittikatz]

I've been trying to avoid commenting because this whole thread has been triggering AF, but the latest comments by @Shadoewolf just have me done.

Bitch, what part of a 15 year old legally cannot consent to sex with an adult do you not understand?  Your brother was an adult. His brain was - presumably - fully developed. If what you say is true, your brother knew this girl was 15, and he fucked her anyway.  No, let's be real - he raped her. It doesn't matter that they later married, it is inconsequential that her family were all for this 'relationship', and it is irrelevant that they are still married. Your brother raped a little girl, and for you to have the gall not just to defend him, but to blame this girl and characterize her as conniving, is just beyond the pall. 

A big chunk of what's wrong with the world (IMO) is that we've lost the connection between power and responsibility. An adult always has more power than a child. It doesn't matter what that child says/does/plans/conives/instigates, it is the responsibility of the adult to act legally and appropriately towards that child. No excuses, no blaming and no bullshit. 

[Lisafer]

I think this thread is a good example of how and why sexual abuse gets covered up in certain families. Because there are people out there who not only blame the victim, but stand ready to re-victimize them for their own ego. We've just had a glimpse into a seriously fucked-up family dynamic.

[Fjrocks]

  OMG     @Shadoewolf  PLEASE, please don't do that!  This is not helpful to anyone.    All I can think is...

    This is not the place, it was a CRIME, that fact cannot be changed.   Are you trying to prove rape is sometimes okay because the victim decides it was?? 

    The situation with Caleb does not involves statutory rape, it involves AGGRAVATED sexual assault.  We have already gone over what factors would have had to been involved, violence, power manipulation, etc.   Trying to defend the adult man in this context is very upsetting.  Why would you choose THIS thread and THIS context to defend  the male?

    I haven't called you any names,  I am trying to get you to stop this run away bus.  You are a long term poster, please take a break and re-evaluate before you make this worse.

    

[singsingsing]

It's hard to believe that we're rehashing this AGAIN, but I just want to say thank you, again, to those who have been able to push back on this more eloquently and patiently than me. Rufus bless.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I would encourage you to leave this in her hands. If she chooses to come here to “explain the situation”, that’s fine. But before she does so, she should consider how this could impact her life to make such comments publicly. It should be her call, so entirely that she should set up her own account for it so she can bear all accountability. 

This. . @Shadoewolf If she wants to post she can join.  

You will not be posting a personal conversation with someone who didn't put this out there publicly.  Re-read the tou if you need to.

 

[Lisafer]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This.  If she wants to post she can join.

You will not be posting a personal conversation with someone who didn't put this out there publicly.

Re-read the tou if you need to.

Thank you. This is a time where I hope the admins have their fingers ready on the delete button to protect the innocent. ? 

[formergothardite]

11 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

She was all for it. She was an active participant in the relationship. Whether you like/dislike the statement, that's the truth of it. Her parents didn't care.

It doesn't really matter if she was all for it. She was a minor. He was an adult. The responsibility is on the adult to not take advantage of a child. 

This whole thing is reminding me of the Courtney Stodden situation. I was probably too harsh on her too, something I regret. She was a 16 year old child who was being exploited by both her mother and Doug Hutchison. People justified saying awful things about her because she looked older and "she wanted it". I remember seeing some clip of a reality TV show she was on when she was still a minor and the adults called her names and treated her like trash, and acted like it was okay because she didn't look like a teen. She has spoken about how she developed very young and people treated her differently than the other people her age. 

We need to stop justifying bad behavior of adults because the minor looks older or didn't resist.