Caleb Williams

[Lurky]

 @Shadoewolf, are you *really* planning to show your sister in law this thread, where you say such nasty things about her 15 year old self, her parents, her husband and his family?  Just to prove us all wrong??  Please, take a step back and re-think that, because you have portrayed her *horribly* here and called your brother in law her victim etc etc. 

Or are you planning to text her select Qs out of context, and then come back with her "gotcha" answers, without showing us the questions?  You can't win there:  either we're all going to (rightfully) think you gave her a biased paraphrase, or it'll be seen as one of those "Funnily enough my best friend is a Russian ballerina, and I asked her, and she said..." situations. 

I get that you are having a difficult time right now, and feel that you are being treated unfairly on the board, but please don't drag your sister in law into this IRL, especially if she doesn't know what you really think about her younger self - that would just be cruel. 

[Satan'sFortress]

@Shadoewolf  You say that now, as a full adult, you see that the relationship was wrong, but you do still keep blaming the 15 year old girl in this situation, despite the hard cold fact that at 15, she couldn't legally consent no matter what.  I am genuinely curious if you think there is another, better cutoff age at which you would unequivocally accept the idea of statutory rape--that at age 14, or 12, or 10---the girl could not be "blamed" in any way. 

Hope that makes sense.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Lurky said:

r it'll be seen as one of those "Funnily enough my best friend is a Russian ballerina, and I asked her, and she said..." situations. 

This made me laugh! When all else fails create a Russian ballerina friend! 

I read a book, I can't remember the name right now, but it was about how hard it is for any of us to admit we made the wrong choice or wrong decision. Once we have made a decision we will go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we made the right choice. Even if we will admit that the situation would be wrong for others, we tend to maintain that it would be okay for us. I think this is relevant here because it seems @Shadoewolf can see that an adult preying on a child is wrong, but since she decided years ago that the 15 year old was to blame she appears to struggle to accept that the adult man wasn't the victim in this situation.

 And I wouldn't be surprised if the former 15 year old girl would firmly refuse to admit that what happened was wrong. She is now invested in this relationship and it would be very hard for her to distance herself enough to admit that her husband of many years preyed on her when she was a minor. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

not about sex, but I lost someone I loved last year to a drug overdose.

when we were teenagers he enthusiastically and actively sought drugs.  He “consented” with utmost eagerness to pay adults to buy booze and sell him drugs.

was that okay for them to do?  He was “asking for it.”  Literally.  He was totally into it and it was his idea.

to the end he never saw any of his dealers or the adults who provided him booze as complicit in anything.  

If a teenager asked me to buy them booze guess what I’d say?  Because I’m the adult and not going to help a kid make poor decisions.

take sex out of it and the parrellel is there.  

If this 15 year old had wanted vodka or meth  from her BIL rather than sex would it still be her fault he provided it?  Or should he, as the adult, given a hard NO and abstained from involvement.

teenagers make bad choices - adults aren’t supposed to help them in that.

[SilverBeach]

12 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

And btw, she has a degree in psych

That doesn't mean shit.

[nausicaa]

12 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Considering I KNOW this girl, and have for the good part of 20 years, I can absolutely describe her and the situation as it was. But to shut everyone the fuck up, I'll text her about this tomorrow and post said conversation afterward. And btw, she has a degree in psych so she can adequately explain. And best watch who you call a bitch when its about to blow up in your face when you read her account. 

What are you trying to accomplish by continuing this?

[nausicaa]

54 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

teenagers make bad choices - adults aren’t supposed to help them in that.

Yeah it's so weird to me that some people treat kids in regards to their choices about sex differently than they do their choices in other areas.

If I asked a twelve year old to get his dad's loaded handguns to play cops and robbers with me and during the game he accidentally shot himself, people wouldn't be saying "Well, he was a willing participant." They would acknowledge that he was a kid who struggled with thinking through the consequences of actions and got too caught up in the moment.

And people would, rightfully, want my head on a fucking stick for being so irresponsible and taking advantage of him and not being the adult in the situation. Same if I talked a teenager into signing over their entire college savings to me in return for some cool limited edition sneakers. 

There are reasons why kids can't legally consent to financial deals, gambling, taking mind-altering substances, and engaging in serious physical risk. And those are the exact same reasons behind why they can't legally consent to sexual relations.

[Carm_88]

My minor is psychology, it means sweet shit all. Psychologists aren't supposed to psychoanalyze themselves or those close to them. Why? Because they are too close to the people to give a clear view. So @Shadoewolf even if your SIL or former SIL wanted to give a perspective on her own case, it wouldn't be valid. She's too close to look at it clearly. The fact that you are going to drag her through the mud to prove your own point is absolutely disgusting. 

15 year olds cannot consent. It does not matter if she wanted it or was an active participant, it's fucking illegal. Why? Because perverts take advantage of teens who think that they are old enough to play with adults. Adults should know better. 

[Aine]

On 12/19/2018 at 6:59 AM, SapphireSlytherin said:

I disagree. I know many 14-year-olds who have been fingered by older guys. 

MY unpopular opinion:  this girl was "all in" for the relationship for a couple of years, got dumped, never got over him (may still love him - and Im not putting love in quotes because to a 14/15/16-year-old, it really is love), but due to the #metoo movement may have developed a different perspective. 

I was in a 'relationship' at 15 with a 24 year old. I had been sexually abused by adult men most of my life. I really didn't have much in common with boys my own age as I was already largely self-sufficient due to life circumstances. I did love that guy. He treated me better than the men who had raped me. He could be gentle and he made me feel safe. But that relationship was also volatile and there was mutual domestic violence- I was a traumatized adolescent with hormones raging and a huge amount of anger towards the world and he could be controlling and punitive. He came from a messed up background and childhood too and I truly do not believe that he saw our age gap as abusive and I certainly didn't at the time. It has taken me many years to accept that it was abuse. There was so much I didn't understand back then and the power differential existed and put me in situations I should never have been put into. 

The #metoo movement didn't wake me up to that or give me a different perspective. Becoming an adult and maturing myself and then having a good and healthy relationship made me begin to realize that. Working with teenage girls the same age as I was then made me realize that. The development of my frontal lobe that allowed me to make better decisions as I matured made me realize that. Just because I didn't realize it at the time does not negate that it was abuse and illegal (and there were multiple kinds of abuse in that relationship) and that he should have known and done better. I still feel uncomfortable calling it 'abuse' a lot of the time. But it also took me years to realize that being taught to perform fellatio on a grown man at the age of 5 was abuse, even if I thought he loved me and I loved him and I liked him praising me and buying me things for it.

Just because someone doesn't know it is abuse at the time, due to their age and developmental stage, and because the older person who does know it is a crime manipulates and grooms them, does not in any way shape or form mean it is okay and that the perpetrator doesn't deserve to be punished and shamed for their actions even if it is years down the track.

I'm not saying any of the above is true in this case against Caleb Williams, but just pointing out that even if it was the circumstance that the above poster outlined- it still is a crime and illegal and it is not 'vengeful' for it to be reported and the perpetrator punished. 

22 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

My minor is psychology, it means sweet shit all. Psychologists aren't supposed to psychoanalyze themselves or those close to them. Why? Because they are too close to the people to give a clear view. So @Shadoewolf even if your SIL or former SIL wanted to give a perspective on her own case, it wouldn't be valid. She's too close to look at it clearly. The fact that you are going to drag her through the mud to prove your own point is absolutely disgusting. 

15 year olds cannot consent. It does not matter if she wanted it or was an active participant, it's fucking illegal. Why? Because perverts take advantage of teens who think that they are old enough to play with adults. Adults should know better. 

I am a psychologist and sure, maybe your work makes you realize some things about yourself or those close to you but my profession mostly means shit all when it comes to understanding myself. It's pretty hard to challenge your own maladaptive beliefs about yourself when they're your beliefs. Same with being an objective professional with those you know and love- it's impossible. That is why it is in our Code of Ethics to avoid dual relationships with patients. It never ends well and you will not do an effective job. 

[Georgiana]

Remember too that our brains and bodies are the product of millions of years of evolutionary engineering geared towards a single goal: survival. The human brain can do some incredible things when it needs to do them to survive. That’s why we get things like trauma bonding and Stockholm syndrome: it’s the brain doing what it needs to to survive.

Admitting you were raped or abused is a big deal, even years down the line. It’s soul crushing in a way that I struggle to put into words. It’s like the bottom falls out of your life and you just sit there like “Fuck. Now what?” I avoided it for years. I ran from it for years. And it’s INSANELY hard to begin to confront buried trauma while that person is still in your life in a close way.  It took a lot of time and being in a safe space before I was willing to say the words, even just in my head: I was raped. 

And movements like metoo can help bring those out because when you hear other women with similar experiences say they were raped, it makes it harder to run from the truth and easier to admit that you too had that experience. 

What I’m saying is that I reported being “ok” with my rape for years until suddenly I wasn’t. This is not uncommon, either.  I would have said it wasn’t rape. I would have defended the situation. All because I wasn’t ready yet to confront the truth of what happened and the fact that I had been victimized. But it was rape the whole time. It was always rape. And the fact that I defended it and took years to call it that doesn’t change what it was. 

[RosyDaisy]

It's hard to believe that we're rehashing this AGAIN, but I just want to say thank you, again, to those who have been able to push back on this more eloquently and patiently than me. Rufus bless.

This shit doesn't need eloquence and patience. It needs to be pushed back hard with no holds barred. Thank you for doing just that@singsingsing.

[Aine]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

And movements like metoo can help bring those out because when you hear other women with similar experiences say they were raped, it makes it harder to run from the truth and easier to admit that you too had that experience. 

What I’m saying is that I reported being “ok” with my rape for years until suddenly I wasn’t. This is not uncommon, either.  I would have said it wasn’t rape. I would have defended the situation. All because I wasn’t ready yet to confront the truth of what happened and the fact that I had been victimized. But it was rape the whole time. It was always rape. And the fact that I defended it and took years to call it that doesn’t change what it was. 

I relate to this a lot with some of my experiences. For example, that boyfriend of my mother's when I was 5? He was the best boyfriend she ever had when I was living with her and I still stand by that even knowing he was a predator now. He didn't hit me. He didn't deprive me of food. He actually spent time with me and played age-appropriate games with me and he taught me how to bowl properly in cricket and how to fix my batting stance. He was not a good guy but realizing years later, after so many horrific experiences with men that came after him, that he too abused me? That was difficult for me. Realizing that my boyfriend that I had loved and who was really my "first love" raped and abused me due to his age and many other things? I still struggle not to defend the good in him. It's so entrenched in my life narrative.

I think all of these things highlight another reason that it is so difficult for people to report their sexual abuse. The abuse is usually one facet of your relationship with that person. There is dark and light in most people. Yes, society too often points out "what a good guy" a perpetrator is and how "they just can't see him doing that" but for many victims, they also often think that for a good amount of time. They do this awful thing/things to you but that's not usually how they interact with you 24/7. That's a very difficult thing to reconcile no matter your age when the perpetrator is someone you know but especially as a child and an adolescent. 

[VelociRapture]

Popping back in here very briefly for two things:

@Shadoewolf, I really hope you step back and listen to the people responding to you here. You were wrong not to report the abuse back then and you’re dead wrong for continuing to insist that your former SIL is to blame for what happened and that it’s no big deal because they’re married now. I’m sorry you’re having a tough time right now and I’m sorry if you feel ganged up on in this thread - but what your former BIL did was and is a big fucking deal. He raped a minor and he alone is responsible for what happened. It doesn’t matter how you try to justify or twist it. He. Raped. A. Minor. 

Please, step away from this thread and really think about what people here are trying to tell you. 

Secondly, I want to thank those of you who have opened up about your personal experiences. I am very lucky to have never been a victim myself and I can never know what it is like to go through a situation like any of the ones described here, so thank you for helping to educate me (and others) about what it’s like and how difficult it can be to reconcile your abuse with your abuser. I wish all of you who have been harmed peace and healing. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

Secondly, I want to thank those of you who have opened up about your personal experiences. I am very lucky to have never been a victim myself and I can never know what it is like to go through a situation like any of the ones described here, so thank you for helping to educate me (and others) about what it’s like and how difficult it can be to reconcile your abuse with your abuser. I wish all of you who have been harmed peace and healing. 

I was in the process of saying the same when this posted, albeit no where near as well.

I'm in awe at the strength and grace of those who shared.  I am so sorry those things happened to you and I wish you much peace.

 

[Escadora]

21 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Considering I KNOW this girl, and have for the good part of 20 years, I can absolutely describe her and the situation as it was. But to shut everyone the fuck up, I'll text her about this tomorrow and post said conversation afterward. And btw, she has a degree in psych so she can adequately explain. And best watch who you call a bitch when its about to blow up in your face when you read her account. 

Given that any post you attempt to make about any conversation you have with her will be removed quickly, I hope, this is largely unnecessary for me to say, but it blows my mind that you think that anything you prompt her to say about the situation would be taken as anything other than an account in which a young girl was raped and then groomed to think that was okay, marry the man who took advantage of her uneducated, unable to consent, teenage self, and then be a part of a family who seems to think that the only person who did anything wrong in that situation was her herself.

Your relative took advantage of a teenager. HE raped her, HE then groomed her from then on until she married him, HE went on to pursue a family with her. It's really not all that difficult to understand that whilst she may not see herself as having been raped and groomed, that that's exactly what happened. 

My uncle, knew a girl who was in my class at school, and she's a few months younger than I am. They became facebook friends when we were 14, but he'd known her since she was about 9. She was fun, smiley, the flirty type, a good friend and social butterfly. Nobody batted an eyelash at her making flirty comments at a 26 year old man because that was just 'her personality' (i can't speak for what her parents were up to, I don't know to what extent they approved of anything tbh), and she was very chatty and 'flirty' with most everybody (women included). It baffles me, now, that his replies that made no attempt to distance himself from her weren't picked up on or were ignored. The second she turned 16 (the legal age for consent in England), they became a couple. She had a baby at 17 (she'd finally had second thoughts, and gone back home to her mother to pursue an abortion, but he stopped that from happening), another at 19, and they married when she was 20. Now, they seem happy. He adores her, and she seems very content to be a SAHM and is actively pursuing another pregnancy. 

I love my cousins, don't get me wrong. They are beautiful children and the world would be a worse place without them, but my uncle should not have stopped her from getting the abortion she wanted and prevented her at having a chance at a life without my shit for brains uncle grooming her into becoming his perfect little wifey. For fuck's sake she wanted to fix navy ships for a living and explore the world, and now her facebook is filled with #relatable posts about her 5 year old still sucking his thumb, and how she can't believe her kids are in school already. I know she says she's happy, and it's not up to me to decide that she's not, but even though we weren't super close at school, and I can barely bring myself to call her family (which, yes, is shitty of me, but it still just feels so wrong), let alone my aunt, I still think she was let down by the adults in her life, as well as the adults in my own family, who let my uncle do this to her. 

It is possible to be disgusted with our family members when they do shitty, nasty, awful, abusive things whilst still loving the children that come about as a result of such things. It's far easier to blame her than it is to accept that you could have done more to stop what was happening, and I understand to a certain extent your defensiveness but as much as it wasn't your fault what happened to her, it even more was not hers. That you let your relative off the hook for the things he did whilst vilifying his victim and assigning her a greater agency as a teenager than as an adult (that girl, indeed), is far more telling of your values than anything that actually happened, and unless you are either her or him, you cannot possibly be able to explain what went on, or say for sure exactly what happened. 

For as long as we blame victims for crimes committed against their bodies and agencies, we will have abusers left unchecked, unaccountable, and unpunished. Please, @Shadoewolf, do you not think it's at all possible that you're wrong?

 

 

[Beermeet]

22 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I just watched the third and fourth installment of "Surviving R. Kelly" on the Lifetime channel. It is so relevant to this discussion. I have long despised R. Kelly as a known child predator and sexual abuser. This documentary makes it clear that young girls can seem to be "all for it" and "willing participants" but are actually manipulated victims of criminals like R. Kelly. I almost lost my dinner, it's a hard watch. The final two episodes are tomorrow night. This expose is long overdue and I hope this reprehensible piece of shit finally gets the ostracism he deserves, since he has escaped prison so far. He has had many enablers and supporters that are complicit in his evil deeds (he did some real nasty shit). The only person who should be derided in Shadoewolf's situation is the ADULT MAN. I don't understand why she can't or won't see that whether the girl wanted it or not, the ADULT MAN should have shut it down, full stop. Going to look at kitty pictures now.

I cannot stand R. Kelley. It's been known for decades. Like, even you and I know kinda known.  I've been reading about the stories for years and now series leaks.  I'm not sure I will watch.  I've had to stop reading.  It's dark nasty shit.  Poor Aaliyah. Poor all of his victims. They were very young and hopeful of a career.  Not capable of sticking up for themselves and no one to stop him.  Sick illiterate bastard is still not in jail.  Jail is for people like him and his enablers.  Not drug abusers and people with too many tickets.  Yet another problem with the rape culture and the USA's for profit jails.  

[Sky with diamonds]

I'm going to say this and then step away, to watch Simply Nailogical videos ( I think she is awesome )

Thanks to everyone who is showing compassion, understanding and sense in this thread. You ladies are awesome. Thank you. ?

[Aine]

1 hour ago, Beermeet said:

I cannot stand R. Kelley. It's been known for decades. Like, even you and I know kinda known.  I've been reading about the stories for years and now series leaks.  I'm not sure I will watch.  I've had to stop reading.  It's dark nasty shit.  Poor Aaliyah. Poor all of his victims. They were very young and hopeful of a career.  Not capable of sticking up for themselves and no one to stop him.  Sick illiterate bastard is still not in jail.  Jail is for people like him and his enablers.  Not drug abusers and people with too many tickets.  Yet another problem with the rape culture and the USA's for profit jails.  

I have no desire to watch the Lifetime thing on him as I've read a number of investigative journalism pieces on him and his "harem" (i.e. group of abused women with Stockholm syndrome that have every aspect of their life controlled by him). The stories of the women's families are also harrowing. The family members who even encouraged the relationship early on thinking that their musically talented daughters might really have a chance to be mentored by him and get a foot in the door of the business and things...I can't imagine carrying that guilt and regret around. That he isn't in prison when this has been not just an industry secret but public knowledge for so many years astounds me. I have seen it get much more press attention the past 5 years or so and that makes me hopeful that maybe it could sink his career eventually and that maybe the authorities will finally step in at some point  

I say "not just an industry secret" because I have good friends and acquaintances from Australia who have made a livable career in Hollywood at various levels of success, one very well known in particular, and they and their friends in LA and NYC who have I have spent time with were abundantly clear that the warnings and rumors and tales of people like Weinstein down to some smaller players exposed during the #MeToo exposés were common knowledge by the time they started within the industry. It blows my mind that R Kelly hasn't been completely blacklisted and investigated despite the attention he has received for so long.

To give some context: A scholarship to private boarding school that was also a day school in Australia opened up an ability to kind of have two lives once I hit high school- 7-12 grade in Australia- that was a stark contrast to my early years and opened doors to not just a wonderful education, and a routine that I craved and needed to feel stable but also to knowing people I'd have never have crossed paths with in a million years without that "in". I feel constantly torn between two worlds in that respect at times, particularly now following a career path in academia while classmates fall into all sorts of executive jobs and amazing lifestyles and still have family money supporting them but I did make lifelong friends and acquaintances who do take me as I am and my hardships with understanding.

[Escadora]

I'm sorry. Despite my essay post up there I feel like I'm not quite done getting my thoughts out, so I'm going to have another go. 

We wouldn't have a term for it if it wasn't a widespread thing, right, the bystander effect? This notion that "someone else will do something"  or  "that's not my problem"  or  "keep my head down, just walk on by" kind of attitude. I also understand people not intervening because of anxiety or other conditions that prevent them for doing so (including just plain and simple fear). I, myself, have stood by and let terrible things happen whilst knowing I should do something, feeling terrible that I'm not doing something, and then berating myself for years afterwards for not doing something. 

I don't think that, at 14, it was within my realm of capability nor responsibility to stop my uncle from grooming the girl I knew at school, especially as I didn't see it for what it was until she was already pregnant. I also don't think that it was my fault that he did that to her. We weren't close. We barely knew each other besides sharing a few classes in senior school, where there were over 300 people in our year. That doesn't stop me from feeling ashamed when I see them at family gatherings not just because I didn't think to or know how to do something but because my family, the people I love and trusted would keep me safe as a teenager (who, I'm fairly sure would have done something had they saw a mid-20s guy sniffing around me when I was 14) seemed to think it was fine that their brother, their son, their friend was flirting with a teenage girl. It wasn't a secret. It wasn't hidden. But it was ignored, it was tolerated, and by the time someone sought to offer this young girl a way out of this trap my uncle had caught her in, he was already in her head enough to be able to convince her that having his baby would be the start of a whole new wonderful life for them. My own parents, on so many occasions, called her a slut, a whore, and so many other disgusting names that no woman deserves to ever be called, es-fucking-pecially one who was groomed in the way she was.  

It was beyond awkward, and horrifying now that I've had years to process it, to be called 'kiddo' by a man who I knew full well had gotten someone younger than me pregnant. Actually, that sounds too nice, someone who GROOMED and RAPED a girl I knew at school (who he had known since she was NINE). It makes me feel all kinds of icky, and I'm so far away from being a player of importance in that story it's not even funny.

I can just about find the flexibility to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to realise that as she is an adult, a mother of two school-age children no less, she is probably acting of her own volition, agency, and desires to stay married to my uncle. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that she truly loves him and the life they have. I don't know for certain how she feels about any of it, and with the way things have settled I won't risk the chance of doing more harm than good by talking to her about it because I respect that as an adult she probably has considered that she could leave, and has chosen to stay. 

I do understand Shadoewolf's opinions. Had my parents been more convincing than my gut feelings I'd probably have been content to label my uncle as being fair and rational and right, and his wife (which I hate to refer to her as because she's her own person but I can't call her my aunt and obviously I won't say her name) any one of those gross names they used. It's easy, tempting, and rewarding to defend family because it saves both reputation and peace. Over time, it can even seem as though nothing wrong happened at all. This rampant victim-blaming, easily, could also be a tactic to suppress any latent guilt Shadoewolf may not realise she has about the situation (absolutely not trying to push anything on to you or put words in your mouth, @Shadoewolf, I'm just speculating and trying to see the other side). To that extent, one where I assume the best of you, of course it hurts to be met here, on a board where we can all get along for years until a topic like this comes up, with disgust and derision. I struggle enough to be disagreed with on a topic as insignificant as headbows, for heaven's sake, it must be difficult to have a strongly held belief like this so violently called into question and slammed.

I'm approaching this, like Shadoewolf, as a person who has a relative that did something completely disgusting and reprehensible. I'm lucky and thankful to not have been groomed, assaulted, or raped by an adult when I was a child. My heart goes out to all of you who have, and I do look sideways at those on this board who seem to think that grooming behaviours are fine, or who believe that a teenager or - rather - a child could 'ask for it' and know the full extent of exactly what it is that they're 'asking for'. 

All this to say that I hope the MeToo movement continues to expose abusers for the horrible things that they've done, and that their victims can find what peace is out there for them. I hope the movement will empower those otherwise coddled by the bystander effect to both push back against the abusers when they see them doing these things, and to protect those victims (both potential and current). Beyond anything else I hope that it introduces new standards for behaviour, and that - if decency and morality fail - that at very least the fear of getting caught will be enough of a threat to deter potential abusers from violating people.

When my uncle's 70 and my former classmate is 58, it's not going to seem like all that big a gap. But he was already an adult when he met her for the first time, and she hadn't even yet turned 10. I don't know how else to illustrate that this kind of relationship is wrong, no matter how much time passes, no matter how happy they may be, no matter how many children they have. No matter how flirty she was with him on facebook, no matter how scantily clad her 14 year old self may possibly have been, no matter if she had been the first to initiate physical contact, no matter how often she wanted attention, no matter how any of it played out because I don't thankfully know all the details and I'll never ask and I'll never come back to this particular facet of my family after this thread ever again because it makes me sick. 

Never mind what she did. She was a child. She did nothing wrong. It's not her fault.

@Shadoewolf, it wasn't your SIL's fault either. I hope she knows that.

[AliceInFundyland]

@Escadora Thank you very much for your story. I appreciate everyone’s input. I think your posts are extremely relevant. I realize it was hard for you to share. I hope @Shadoewolf is still listening. We take time with certain posters and I want very much to think that they hear things. The past month on FJ has been interesting in that regard. 

[Aine]

@Escadora - you were also a child. Times, they've changed. And it is true that especially when we're young, we're often far more malleable to the culture around us and and how our caregivers and family behaves. To be honest, knowing police and their often inconsistent attitude towards statutory rape depending on the area and who is reporting and pushing for charges, even if you had reported, they likely wouldn't have followed up from a 14-year-old's report. It's sad but true in many jurisdictions.

I am guilty of not calling the police when my younger cousin on my mother's messed up side of the family (who was also orphaned at about 5 or 6 due to both her parents overdosing on heroin within a year of one another) started dating and then fell pregnant to a guy around 27ish when she was 15. He was and is an awful human- a criminal in far more ways than just having a relationship with a young and vulnerable teen- and I did do everything I could to convince her of that while supporting her in what ended up being single motherhood from mid-way through pregnancy...and then getting pregnant to him again during a short rekindling of the relationship 2 years later because she wanted her daughter to have the family she never did...and him leaving again and stealing all her stuff. But I didn't even think of calling the police except when I called them to report domestic violence. I didn't want him to make her push me away and then have no support around. I was very young too. She was raised by her maternal grandmother who loved her and her sister a lot but was a hard and cold woman who always grieved the loss of her only child (their mother) and blamed their father for introducing her daughter to drugs. My uncle certainly didn't help but by all accounts, he was not solely to blame at all. I think her grief and anger got taken out on the girls a fair bit, see-sawing between over-protectiveness and being totally checked out. 

It was wrong but I honestly didn't even think of calling the cops when I was a messed up teen myself. I'd do things differently now. Just like the teens we're talking about here, we were that too and not the best decision makers.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

19 hours ago, Lisafer said:

Thank you. This is a time where I hope the admins have their fingers ready on the delete button to protect the innocent. ? 

We should all remember that as awesome as our admins and helpmeets are, they can't be on every thread. If any of us see a post that is a concern, it's easy to report the post so that it can be addressed quickly. Just tap the flag icon at the top right:

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A window pops up:

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You can explain why the post concerns you:

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or if you hit "report" by mistake, just tap the "x":

Tap "submit report" and a message is send to someone with the power to evaluate and change things if applicable. 

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Not to get too preachy, but it's just a little version of "if you see something, say something". 

The FJ we have is a result of all of us caring about what is said here. People have made some eloquent and incredibly moving posts on this thread, that have really brought up some emotions for me, and many other people. Thank you to everyone who shared a story and to everyone who stood up for what is right. Just, thank you.

[Lisafer]

I'd like to point out, in case anyone finds themselves in a situation where they need to report the sexual abuse of a minor, that Child Protective Services might be a better choice than the police. Depending on the individual circumstances, of course, but Child Services deals with these things every day, and I believe in most locations you can report anonymously if needed.

[Walking Cat Bed]

On 1/4/2019 at 9:25 PM, Aine said:

Whoever said that 8-10% of reports are untrue?! That is no less than any other form of felony crime. The difference is that burglary or felony assault or grand larceny or murder go to a grand jury and to trial far more readily than a sexual assault case and the burden of proof is often much higher in sexual assault cases because of attitudes just like yours. Attitudes like that are the reason women and men do not report. People don't generally hesitate to contact the cops after their house is burgaled because even though the same amount of people make that up, no one generally doubts them. The same is not true for traumatized victims of sexual assault- where 80-90% of perpetrators are known to the victim, making it even more difficult. 

And if I understand the numbers correctly, 7-9% of those "untrue" reports are inaccurate, not false. Not remembering every detail or remembering things slightly off, or conflating ongoing abuse with a specific incident, or just being overwhelmed and traumatized. Which happens with other crimes -- if someone pulls a gun, the victim probably isn't going to remember which hand is holding that gun or know specifics about that gun (besides handgun vs rifle). They're going to try to keep that gun from being pointed in their face.

Also, personal anecdote time. In high school, I started attending a church youth group. One of the younger adult volunteers (I think he was 22 or 23) appeared to be the man of my dreams -- I was head-over-heels smitten. He knew this, a few other adults knew this -- and he made sure one of the adult women was my ride if I needed one, made sure I was with other students if we were talking, and never touched me. Ever. Because he knew that he was the adult and had the power in the situation, and I was a naive and swoony 15-year-old. And a few years later, when I was home from college or military things, we had no chemistry. We were friends and that was it. 

Because, as the adult in the situation, he knew that his reaction to my feelings was on him. Even if he had some kind of attraction (I still don't know), he recognized that he had the power -- and he used that power to maintain boundaries. 

[HarryPotterFan]

I had a Spanish teacher in high school who was in his mid-twenties who girls swooned over. He was a very attractive man with a sexy accent. He could have easily taken advantage of this but he didn’t. There were rumors he hooked up with someone my brothers’ year after she graduated. I have no idea if those rumors are true or not, but he didn’t touch his students. His work visa expired and he had to go back to Spain at the end of my junior or senior year. A classmate repeatedly offered to marry him so he could stay. He avoided her like the plague.