MERGE: Mark Driscoll in the news again/Mars Hill Hits Fan

[ThisOlGirl]

Here's Jezebel's take on Mark Driscoll.

http://jezebel.com/hipster-pastor-mark- ... 447325/all

Damn, his face is just so punchable. And you just know he has a drawer full of Ed Hardy t-shirts, a sure sign of douche-dom.

Ha! Yes to the Ed Hardy shirts. And whatever the preferred cologne is among the douchebags of today, you can be the has a gallon of it (back in my younger days it was Drakkar Noir).

[DomWackTroll]

Maybe Mark should try kicking it oldskool douchebag in a Members Only jacket. I mean, you know how those Seattle hipsters love vintage.

[neuroticcat]

I really think it must be quite awful for his kids. I mean it sucks to hope that he's an absent father, but I do. I hope that he's traveling/speaking/LEADING so much that he doesn't have that much influence over his kids.

I also wonder how much Grace actually hears about what's going on. I expect that Mark censors everything she hears about the church to "protect" and "cherish" his wife. And the Christian subculture is so weird about pastor's wives. It's not like she could say: that's Mark's thing - no, she has to fill some sort of godly lead-other-women role.

I also think that it makes sense that she espouses a bunch of submission, sex whenever he wants it, stuff (if I remember correctly, she has said that if you aren't having sex weekly there is a problem in your marriage), because if she believed differently her marriage and life would be intolerable. I see it as she has two options: drink the koolaid and jump on the legalism bandwagon whole-heartedly or stop and leave the marriage.

[Savoring Samsara]

Ha! Yes to the Ed Hardy shirts. And whatever the preferred cologne is among the douchebags of today, you can be the has a gallon of it (back in my younger days it was Drakkar Noir).

That would be Axe Body Spray.

[Rachel333]

I was very surprised to see this just now. Good for them, and I think the letter was worded well. I've said this before, but I really believe he is the worst influence on American Evangelicalism today.

I think Driscoll's biggest problem is power. He likes telling everyone how to live their lives, and I think it sounds like he has much more power than he should over his congregation and he abuses it very badly. From some of the stories I've read from people who left, his church uses straight-up cult tactics.

I've never really thought there would be one event that brought him down. I think there is some iffy financial stuff in his past, but I don't really think he's actually embezzling. I think he is obsessed with sex and telling everyone how to do it correctly, but I just really don't think he would cheat (though I could be wrong!). Honestly, though, I think it's creepy and inappropriate enough that he has his "gift of discernment" where God will apparently give him visions of church members sinning.

Really it's just the sum of everything he does and espouses that should have gotten him removed from his position long ago.

[RachelB]

Ha! Yes to the Ed Hardy shirts. And whatever the preferred cologne is among the douchebags of today, you can be the has a gallon of it (back in my younger days it was Drakkar Noir).

And then it was Acqua di Gio, which I would like except for associating it with douchebags.

[ViolaSebastian]

And then it was Acqua di Gio, which I would like except for associating it with douchebags.

Oh maan, I never knew Aqua di Gio was associated with douchebags per se, but I have an ex-boyfriend that wore that and, sure enough, he was a douchebag.

[Tiger Lily]

I was very surprised to see this just now. Good for them, and I think the letter was worded well. I've said this before, but I really believe he is the worst influence on American Evangelicalism today.

I think Driscoll's biggest problem is power. He likes telling everyone how to live their lives, and I think it sounds like he has much more power than he should over his congregation and he abuses it very badly. From some of the stories I've read from people who left, his church uses straight-up cult tactics.

I've never really thought there would be one event that brought him down. I think there is some iffy financial stuff in his past, but I don't really think he's actually embezzling. I think he is obsessed with sex and telling everyone how to do it correctly, but I just really don't think he would cheat (though I could be wrong!). Honestly, though, I think it's creepy and inappropriate enough that he has his "gift of discernment" where God will apparently give him visions of church members sinning.

Really it's just the sum of everything he does and espouses that should have gotten him removed from his position long ago.

Nah, he just uses this "gift" as an excuse to keep everyone on a short leash. He enjoys the power.

[halcionne]

Oh maan, I never knew Aqua di Gio was associated with douchebags per se, but I have an ex-boyfriend that wore that and, sure enough, he was a douchebag.

Aw man I like both of these. :embarrassed: It explains a lot, though. What does it say about me that I still wear Calvin Klein Obsession?

[RachelB]

Aw man I like both of these. :embarrassed: It explains a lot, though. What does it say about me that I still wear Calvin Klein Obsession?

Probably not much. (I have a pre-critical fondness for Aspen for Men, FWIW.) In fact I would probably like Aqua di Gio were it not for the aforementioned douchebags-- I admire it aesthetically but just have bad associations with it. Drakkar, OTOH, is just not my thing. Too easily overapplied. But lots of people like it. /perfume nerd

[Phoenix]

Ironically Driscoll has now been booted from the Acts29 board after infamously turning out the original founder a number of years ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/0 ... lp00000592

[Howl]

I don't see anything changing at Mars Hill (i.e., Driscoll resigning or "taking a season away from the church for repentance and reflection" wink, wink). If membership dropped off a cliff and the pews are empty, if he were to be found guilty in a criminal lawsuit or culpable in a civil suit, caught in a massive sex scandal, embezzlement, manic episode/psychiatric instability -- something that was beyond damage control -- then maybe. Then again, I could be totally wrong!

Here's my take: he re-structured the church so that he has zero meaningful accountability. As he spins out of control, he will continue to surround himself with two types: even more ruthless enforcers and progressively more subservient synchophants. He will use these people as a protective barrier to keep the rank and file naive.

Anyone who has given him meaningful feedback is already on the very large body pile behind the Mars Hill bus.

I think it is also significant that the voices of women have been completely silenced in this system, so half of the people being destroyed by this vicious train wreck of a human aren't being heard.

Also, the Mark Driscoll sex creeper factor is off the charts -- massive red flags have been waving here because when you deconstruct his views of sexual relationships and practices, it is all about boundary violations, beginning with the horrible way he treats his wife by publicly discussing intimate factors of their marriage which NO ONE should ever know about, unless it is a secular therapist/psychiatrist.

Well, that's enough gas-baggery from me, but I must say it is very cathartic. :D

[nokidsmom]

I don't see anything changing at Mars Hill (i.e., Driscoll resigning or "taking a season away from the church for repentance and reflection" wink, wink). If membership dropped off a cliff and the pews are empty, if he were to be found guilty in a criminal lawsuit or culpable in a civil suit, caught in a massive sex scandal, embezzlement, manic episode/psychiatric instability -- something that was beyond damage control -- then maybe. Then again, I could be totally wrong!

Here's my take: he re-structured the church so that he has zero meaningful accountability. As he spins out of control, he will continue to surround himself with two types: even more ruthless enforcers and progressively more subservient synchophants. He will use these people as a protective barrier to keep the rank and file naive.

Anyone who has given him meaningful feedback is already on the very large body pile behind the Mars Hill bus.

I think it is also significant that the voices of women have been completely silenced in this system, so half of the people being destroyed by this vicious train wreck of a human aren't being heard.

Also, the Mark Driscoll sex creeper factor is off the charts -- massive red flags have been waving here because when you deconstruct his views of sexual relationships and practices, it is all about boundary violations, beginning with the horrible way he treats his wife by publicly discussing intimate factors of their marriage which NO ONE should ever know about, unless it is a secular therapist/psychiatrist.

Well, that's enough gas-baggery from me, but I must say it is very cathartic. :D

I completely agree with this. And one mustn't underestimate how many people continued to join even as the large body pile grew. For some reason, the church still manages to keep them coming in.

The boundary violations and the whole submission of women should have been (IMHO) enough for people to say "hey, wait a second" from the very minute they get exposed to it, yet they still get sucked in.

[urban teacher]

On our way to a cruise, we stayed in Seattle and just walked by the Mars Hill church. I was tempted to go to a service but didn't have time. Ugly building

[nokidsmom]

I have a friend living in the Seattle area. Been tempted to ask her about Mars Hill but afraid to because her son and daughter have gone fundie-ish as adults. Not totally sure where she stands on that as I make a point of avoiding religion and politics and talk about other things. Son lives nearby and could very well be a member.

ETA: Oh crap, I tried googling the son and yes, he has MD as a one of the things he likes on his FB page. Doesn't list Mars Hill as his church but he's one of these hipster religious types, the sort that would be attracted to Mars Hill.

[Rainytown]

Well, that's enough gas-baggery from me, but I must say it is very cathartic. :D

I completely agree with this. And one mustn't underestimate how many people continued to join even as the large body pile grew. For some reason, the church still manages to keep them coming in.

I know why MS continues to attract the hipsters, and anyone who doesn't go to the place is guaranteed not to get it. Driscoll has managed to convince his parishioners that the fact he allows smoking/drinking/lots of coffee/secular music/wearing jeans to all services means that Mars Hill reflects "current culture" and it makes those who attend MH even cooler. It's really weird to hear my colleague talk about this; the programming is intense. I should also mention that she graduated from a fundie college. I can only imagine what the administration there would have to say about Driscoll's brand of "Christianity".

[salsa]

Other than knowing he's a misogynist, I really haven't bothered to learn about him until this point So, sorry for the "homework" type question - but, what do you all mean by "boundary violations?" and sharing intimate things in public (literal sex acts, or relationship things, using his wife as the butt of his jokes or what).

[jerkit]

Other than knowing he's a misogynist, I really haven't bothered to learn about him until this point So, sorry for the "homework" type question - but, what do you all mean by "boundary violations?" and sharing intimate things in public (literal sex acts, or relationship things, using his wife as the butt of his jokes or what).

To answer the second part of your question: his Real Marriage book and sermon series was basically him throwing his wife under the bus for 1. Having sex before marriage with someone else 2. Not being the perfect fundagelical wife in the first many years of their marriage.

[salsa]

Thank you! ... and I did a little more googling and answered the first part of my question. Yes, very invasive.

[RachelB]

Other than knowing he's a misogynist, I really haven't bothered to learn about him until this point So, sorry for the "homework" type question - but, what do you all mean by "boundary violations?" and sharing intimate things in public (literal sex acts, or relationship things, using his wife as the butt of his jokes or what).

If you're an immediate family member of a preacher, you're probably going to be used as a sermon illustration at least on occasion. If the preacher is considerate (e.g., my mom), they'll ask permission to quote you or tell a story about you. If the preacher has some narcissistic tendencies and thinks you exist largely to supply illustrations (e.g., my father), they won't. (And they won't stop to think about how other people having knowledge about you that you haven't consented to share might make life more awkward for you.)

MD shares things, in print as well as in sermons, that I would be very surprised if he had asked to share. A case in point-- he has repeatedly called attention to the fact that his wife Grace had sex with someone else before they started dating, and he has said publicly that he would not have married her if he'd known that. It sort of seems as if he's never forgiven her for having a life prior to him, and he has no compunctions about shaming her for it in public.

He has talked about how it is a wife's responsibility to keep her husband sexually satisfied, and that it is unbiblical for her to deny oral or anal sex. I see two possible interpretations there, neither of which reflects well on him. That is, he is either using his position to coerce his wife into doing things she doesn't want to do, or being smug about the fact that he's managed to talk her into doing things she doesn't want to do. He certainly wouldn't be so invested in making a biblical case for particular sexual acts if he weren't invested in doing them, and that's frankly TMI for a sermon or a theological book.

He's also publicly said that if a Christian man strays from his marriage, as Ted Haggard did, it's probably because his wife has put on weight or gotten wrinkles: http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/11/when_a_conservative (not breaking the link, because The Stranger won't care). This seems like a way of saying "Grace, take notice!"

[salsa]

I remember the thing about Haggard and wondered then where the logic is. So does marriage include a tummy tuck after every baby? Does that include facelifts and botox until women look like mannequins? Gravity takes over even the most fit woman's under part of their upper arms and breasts and butt. And I agree with you about when he mentions oral or anal sex - seems a pretty sure bet that these are things they do in the bedroom. What an egomaniac! I don't know how this will play out, but even though I disagree with the Acts 29 group theologically, I respect their calling him out. I hope it's because they see how they got seduced into his bubble.

[Howl]

Ted Haggard did not make numerous visits to a gay prostitute or put moves on several young men in his (then) church because his wife wasn't keeping herself up. He did it because he likes sex with men.

He has been straightforward in saying he is likely bisexual.

But now, just wife, because God.

I would never nominate Ted Haggard as pastor or husband of the year (he liked having sex with men, but still opposes gay marriage, because God), but I do think he may be a much, much nicer guy than MK.

[Joan of Snarc]

He's also publicly said that if a Christian man strays from his marriage, as Ted Haggard did, it's probably because his wife has put on weight or gotten wrinkles: http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/11/when_a_conservative (not breaking the link, because The Stranger won't care). This seems like a way of saying "Grace, take notice!"

Yeah, because

<------- this guy

thinks he should be with a supermodel.

:wanker:

[neuroticcat]

So it looks like Lifeway pulled his books. Not a fan of censorship at all, but I'm also not sad to see his books off shelves.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleani ... stian.html

Also if you want to see the full letter Acts 29 sent and the response from their elders, there are quotes here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleani ... ndler.html

[Howl]

Hmmm, is that sound I heard the second domino falling?