MERGE: Mark Driscoll in the news again/Mars Hill Hits Fan

[hoipolloi]

I'm getting an invalid URL message

You may need to have a Dropbox account to see it, even with the link from the Patheos article on this: patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/03/mars-hill-church-director-of-worship-dustin-kensrue-resigns/

[jerkit]

You may need to have a Dropbox account to see it, even with the link from the Patheos article on this: patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/03/mars-hill-church-director-of-worship-dustin-kensrue-resigns/

I think I can't see it because I'm on my phone. I'll check when I'm on a computer.

[sunshine]

This is interesting and a lot to read.

[neuroticcat]

Interesting letter and telling to see the fulfillment of what the two pastors who stood against the bylaws back in 2007 predicted:

"So, what’s the answer to the question “what can your elders do?†Simply put, sadly not

much. This is why we’ve looked pained when you’ve have asked us what we are going to do

about all of this."

Mark has complete control so the only real option is to get on board or jump ship.

[shedemei]

I got that too, on Tapatalk. It actually routes web traffic through their own web service and redirects to the original URL. Very annoying, and mangles the URL in this case. Try copying it and pasting it into your web browser instead of clicking the link. Even if you don't use Tapatalk.

[LaLele]

I just put 2 and 2 together reading that letter and realized I know one of the 9 pastors that signed the letter. Even if he is anti-Mark Driscoll he is still an awful human who shunned his sister for being a lesbian. He refused to attend her partner's funeral and even went so far as to imply her partner's death was God's punishment for leading a "sinful" life. I knew Mars Hill rung a bell, and now I know why.

[Rainytown]

the Patheos article on this: patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/09/03/mars-hill-church-director-of-worship-dustin-kensrue-resigns/

Hoipolloi, thank you so much for pointing everyone in the right direction re: the letter.

IIRC, four pastors at Bellevue's Mars Hill location have either been fired or resigned in the past 72 hours. For those who may find this interesting, Mark Driscoll went all in on a piece of property in Bellevue he claimed "God wanted" them to "have" earlier this year. The property is owned by King County, who prefers it be made into mixed use (mass transit/condos/retail).

[louisa05]

They are dropping like flies now. It will soon be just Driscoll and the true believers and he will be back in the pulpit before his six weeks is over.

Not at all surprising as I'm sure this was the exact scenario his by-law changes were intended for--he is protected from any consequences regardless of his behavior.

[Rainytown]

I just put 2 and 2 together reading that letter and realized I know one of the 9 pastors that signed the letter. Even if he is anti-Mark Driscoll he is still an awful human who shunned his sister for being a lesbian. He refused to attend her partner's funeral and even went so far as to imply her partner's death was God's punishment for leading a "sinful" life. I knew Mars Hill rung a bell, and now I know why.

I am very sorry for the "innocent" at Mars Hill -- in other words, I'm sorry for those who didn't have a clue about what was really going on in that church. I'm not sorry at all that the homophobes and misogynists there (let alone the significant spiritual abusers) are getting the wake-up call of a lifetime.

Driscoll bragged and bragged about his thriving church in the midst of the "most unchurched area of the country". Seattle has more college grads and those with advanced degrees by population than anywhere else in the United States. A very educated population and no use for organized religion? Hmmmm. Can't imagine what the link there might be. :eyeroll: Needless to say, Driscoll's hatred of feminists and "liberals" has come back to bite him in the ass.

I am so sorry for the now-resigned pastor's sister. I hope she is surrounded with people who love and support her.

[louisa05]

I am very sorry for the "innocent" at Mars Hill -- in other words, I'm sorry for those who didn't have a clue about what was really going on in that church. I'm not sorry at all that the homophobes and misogynists there (let alone the significant spiritual abusers) are getting the wake-up call of a lifetime.

Driscoll bragged and bragged about his thriving church in the midst of the "most unchurched area of the country". Seattle has more college grads and those with advanced degrees by population than anywhere else in the United States. A very educated population and no use for organized religion? Hmmmm. Can't imagine what the link there might be. :eyeroll: Needless to say, Driscoll's hatred of feminists and "liberals" has come back to bite him in the ass.

I am so sorry for the now-resigned pastor's sister. I hope she is surrounded with people who love and support her.

I always take a fundagelical declaration that a town or area is "unchurched" with an entire shaker of salt. A google search shows an abundance of worship places in the greater Seattle area including mega churches that are not Mark's Hill (borrowed from Wartburg Watch), smaller evangelical churches, mainline Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic, as well as Jewish, Buddhist, Islam, Hindu and others.

We had fundamentalist missionaries in our town last summer. I googled the church that was on their shirts and vans and read on their site that my town is "unchurched". We have at least 15 congregations in a town of not quite 9000 people. But only one is fundamentalist, so we are "unchurched".

[hoipolloi]

With fundies, "unchurched" = "not part of our cult church"

Doubt that they consider mainline Protestant denominations -- or, Heaven forfend, Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox -- to be real churches or at least part the "churched" group.

[jerkit]

With fundies, "unchurched" = "not part of our cult church"

Doubt that they consider mainline Protestant denominations -- or, Heaven forfend, Roman Catholics or Greek Orthodox -- to real churches or at least part the "churched" group.

Driscoll frequently throws out statistics about Christians and in those, indicates that only evangelicals are Christians. He's never defined that though, so he could include the mainline but I doubt it.

[hoipolloi]

Driscoll frequently throws out statistics about Christians and in those, indicates that only evangelicals are Christians. He's never defined that though, so he could include the mainline but I doubt it.

Don't MH & similar places like SGM poach members from other churches? It's not like they're actually trying to fulfill the Great Commission, is it?

[jerkit]

Don't MH & similar places like SGM poach members from other churches? It's not like they're actually trying to fulfill the Great Commission, is it?

I don't know about this.

[louisa05]

I don't know about this.

That's basically all that most evangelical "church plants" do regardless of where they are. A cousin of mine and her husband were involved in a church plant in the terribly "unchurched" city of Wichita, Kansas, a few years ago. The "core group" was young couples anxious to prove their evangelical credentials by "church planting" who moved there just for that from other cities and other churches. And most of their members were poached from other congregations. Of course, as others have made clear, if you poach them from the Catholics, Unitarians, Lutherans, Orthodox, Presybterians, etc... they've been "saved" and are real Christians now.

Incidentally, the whole experience turned out very badly for my cousin. They left very disillusioned, broke, and wounded. But she is no longer preaching hard core evangelicalism since that disaster.

[neuroticcat]

Yeah, I think the whole "unchurched city" label has been a way to say: Look how amazing we are - we reached people no one else could! And it's the sort of evangelical bragging rights that are thrown around when MH needs to pump itself up.

I completely agree that unchurched usually means no churches like us.

I wish church planters would just own up to that. I mean, why not just say: hey, there are no Lutheran congregations within a twenty mile radius, so we'd like to start one. What's the problem with that? No need to throw all the other churches under the bus as Not the Real Church TM.

[louisa05]

Yeah, I think the whole "unchurched city" label has been a way to say: Look how amazing we are - we reached people no one else could! And it's the sort of evangelical bragging rights that are thrown around when MH needs to pump itself up.

I completely agree that unchurched usually means no churches like us.

I wish church planters would just own up to that. I mean, why not just say: hey, there are no Lutheran congregations within a twenty mile radius, so we'd like to start one. What's the problem with that? No need to throw all the other churches under the bus as Not the Real Church TM.

I think that is when Lutherans start one. :)

I've known of a lot of church plants that are practically next door to established churches that have the same beliefs. Some former students of mine were involved in an evangelical church plant that was about a 1/4 mile down the street from another large evangelical church (and a bunch of them friended me on FB to invite us--and then were promptly unfriended). A lot of it is that being involved in a church plant gives you a lot of super-faithful credit in that world. You are out there "doing the work of the kingdom" and what not if you do that. It is kind of a fad among young uber-evangelicals. That's what the group was that my cousin and her husband got wrapped up in. They uprooted their lives for that, moved far from home and got burned. Sadly, Driscoll and Mars Hill has been the inspiration for that movement in a lot of corners of evangelicalism. After all, if your plant really takes off, you might get famous, too.

[heidi]

A former coworker of my husband attends Mars Hill. On facebook he's been making lengthy posts comparing MD to David and Solomon; rambling on how MD's theology is "sound" so everything else he does is a moot point; and claiming that there has been "sin on both sides"--but since MD "repented" he's obviously in the right.

:angry-banghead:

[Jasmar]

That argument isn't just heinous, it's stupid. What was Jesus' theology? Love The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

That has never been Mark Driscoll's theology. Ergo, his theology is garbage.

[neuroticcat]

Three locations closing:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthro ... r-on-hold/

This to me is almost more significant than all the blather about MD's six weeks off. If the funding dries up, things will change.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The one in Huntington Beach, CA is fairly new. It took over a HUGE building that used to be occupied by a church I would sometimes go to. I found out it was a mars hill when I took my kids to a birthday party at one if those jumping places. It says they will possibly survive if giving increases but I think it will also cave. Too expensive to rent and I doubt there are enough members.

[Four is Enough]

//www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/08/wash-state-megachurch-closes-branches-after-founder-is-caught-calling-women-penis-homes/

I mean, the story is from 2001, the quote says... but the dismissal is recent?

[jerkit]

//www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/08/wash-state-megachurch-closes-branches-after-founder-is-caught-calling-women-penis-homes/

I mean, the story is from 2001, the quote says... but the dismissal is recent?

I don't think these two things are related. Throckmorton recently wrote about penis homes but I'm fairly certain the reason branches are being shut down is because of decreased attendance and financial giving.

[Firiel]

I don't think these two things are related. Throckmorton recently wrote about penis homes but I'm fairly certain the reason branches are being shut down is because of decreased attendance and financial giving.

But I think part of the reason that attendance and giving are down is the recent Mars Hill scandals, not the least of which is Driscoll's removal from the Acts 29 organization and the revelations of his William Wallace II posts (the former also seemed to contribute to the latter).

[jerkit]

But I think part of the reason that attendance and giving are down is the recent Mars Hill scandals, not the least of which is Driscoll's removal from the Acts 29 organization and the revelations of his William Wallace II posts (the former also seemed to contribute to the latter).

Totally agree. But this articles seems to say that the MH locations closed specifically because of the penis home comment, which is not true.