The Continuing Fall of VF and Doug Phillips is a tool-Part 4

[Palimpsest]

We don't even know that this was an affair. We just have Jen and her mystery writer's allegations.

I imagine this young man's home life was pretty sucky (especially if his dad is tracking him by GPS!) Maybe Mr. and Mrs. Robinson are/were warm and welcoming people. The kind who make kids who are lacking something in their home lives feel loved and accepted as human beings.

Mrs. Robinson may just be a truly nice caring person who happens to be gorgeous. Since she's gorgeous and nice, the accusations fly due to jealously or whatever. And it turns into the Salem Witch Trials 2013....

And if the accusations are true, Then boundaries that are appropriate need to be put in place. Not public shaming on a web page.

ETA to fix grammar riffles last sentence.

I snipped the other long quotes for space, but yes ITA. There is no proof of anything.

As Debrand also said, the creepiest things about this whole story are Dad with the GPS organizing the lynch mob at house, and the fact that neither TW nor Jen seem to see anything creepy about that. TW is so salaciously gleeful about being able to tell this story discrediting Mrs Robinson it is hard to make sense of his word salad. I read it as the story was told to him by church members who were part of the angry mob, not by the young man or even the stalking father.

It occurs to me that those of you who weren't alive during the 60s might not get the Mrs Robinson reference :mrgreen:

"And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson

Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)

God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson

Heaven holds a place for those who pray

(Hey, hey, hey...hey, hey, hey)"

I've had it as an earwom since Monday. Simon and Garfunkle. Used in the sound track for the Graduate starring Dustin Hoffman as a nerd willingly seduced by a very foxy Anne Bankcroft. He lived to regret it.

Edit for clarity

[ladyamylynn]

Thank you. I wrongly assumed that the two oldest boys were older than they are.

Also, SamuraiKatz makes a pretty good point in the post above me. We have no idea if Mrs. Robinson had any type of sexual relationship with the younger man or not. We do know from the story that the young man's father is a control freak who supposedly sent this story to TW so the dad has boundary issues also

Joshua is listed as 16 on the website for the Mysterious Islands movie, which came out in 2009. That would make him 20. Snark away.

ETA, on the Ballantyne the Brave website, which is at least a few years old, he says he's 18. ballantynethebrave.com/about/

[browngrl]

If I was a snarky speculating sort of woman (and I am) I would wonder if the reason that Peter Bradrick's mother is still in tears is because she is a whole lot more involved than would be the usual bystander. Every other fundie seems to have dried their tears and proceeded on with the business of dividing up profits/people/power or covering up past errors or assigning blame. Could it be that Kelly "I roll under the fence for you" Bradrick is the woman in question and not Hero? Could the financial web have snared the Bradricks even more deeply than seems to be the case? Or is this all the usual fundie hand wringing and hyperbole?

[Bethie42]

The senior Bradricks are steeped in patriarchal kool-aid and have made lots of $$$ dispensing it as well: familydiscipleshipmin.com/about/.

They have regularly appeared at & sponsored conferences in their home state of WA and elsewhere via a VF/NCFIC-like organization Michael Bradrick (co-)founded. Their website hawks their & other patriarchal shite from VF, Voddie Baucham, Kevin Swanson, ad nauseum: christianheritageonline.org/

They also push training beating kids into submission, first time obedience, etc., etc.: christianheritageonline.org/dont-just-discipline-train/

To the extent that she's endorsed & pushed all this crap for YEARS, Susan Bradrick gets no pass from me. If DP or another evil-doer has done something awful to one of her kids, perhaps she needs to think through whether forcing children into obeying any adult instantly the first time is really a wise or good thing to do.

Thank you! BTW I wasn't implying that Susan B got any pass based on the pain that she may by going through right now. I just wondered, like browngrl, if there might be something else going on, based on the extreme concern that other commenters have voiced. To me, saying that one's mother's heart just can't imagine the pain of another is something that might be said to a mother who had lost a child by death or abandonment, or grave illness, or extreme abuse by another person.

Looked at the website…ick. Usually I don't get super upset about all this anymore, because I am used to thinking about it and whatnot, but for some reason seeing the list of people who have contributed material [Phillips, Botkins, McDonald, Harris, and on and on] got me pretty upset….seeing all the 'leaders' who have had a part in screwing up my heart and emotions and personality. I see the Botkins' smiling family, and think of the bitter self-hatred, despair and shame I felt after reading 'So Much More' and watching 'Return of the Daughters', how for years I have struggled with self-harm, and how dating relationships are fraught with more than usual difficulty because of the lingering influence of their teachings…

I think that if I ever confronted them about it they would just say that I didn't follow the heart of their message, that the fault lies only and entirely with *me* for over-reacting to their work. Terribly, I am afraid that I would still believe that on some level, and feel shame that they are so much better than me, that I was just a weak girl who couldn't follow their teachings properly.

:(

[Palimpsest]

Joshua is listed as 16 on the website for the Mysterious Islands movie, which came out in 2009. That would make him 20. Snark away.

ETA, on the Ballantyne the Brave website, which is at least a few years old, he says he's 18. ballantynethebrave.com/about/

So Joshua is at least 20? That makes the unfortunately named Justice over 18 too?

I stand corrected, snark away on those two. :)

[hoipolloi]

I think that if I ever confronted them about it they would just say that I didn't follow the heart of their message, that the fault lies only and entirely with *me* for over-reacting to their work. Terribly, I am afraid that I would still believe that on some level, and feel shame that they are so much better than me, that I was just a weak girl who couldn't follow their teachings properly.

:(

Well, this is always their way out of any "problems" that people encounter when trying to follow their cult doctrines: You're Doing It Wrong.

It's the same thing with Michael & Debi Pearl. The people who murdered their children by beating them to death in accordance with TTUAC were "doing it wrong." That's why the Pearls bear no responsibility for any of it.

BTW, I certainly didn't construe your comments as giving Susan Bradrick a pass and I apologize if my remarks implied that!

[danvillebelle]

Hugs to you Bethie42. You're so not alone.

And for all the thousands of girls like you, there are just as many thousands of women like me, who felt the same way but as mothers...never measuring up, never making the schedule work, never getting the house clean enough, never getting the children obedient enough, obsessing over the right homeschooling curriculum, ad nauseum ad infinitum. That is why I have no shame in enjoying seeing these bastards go down in flames (though I do feel sorry for the minor children).

I am so glad I got out of the VF/Botkins/Maxwell crap when I did. My daughters are 15 and 13 now; they attend a church with a youth group, everyone wears jeans, they go to the movies with their friends to obsess over cute guys they love (Thor! Loki!) and just generally have a good time. We do still homeschool, but we always have and it's just a way of life for us.

Doug Phillips will always and forever be a Tool.

[thoughtful]

JTP said he was 18 on the "about" page of Ballentyne the Brave, which started in 2008. Assuming he wrote that when he started it, he'd be about 23 now.

ballantynethebrave.com/about/

[HereticHick]

I see that the Vision Forum 60% Liquidation sale ends this Saturday. Perhaps their warehouse lease is up at the end of the month? [or do they own VF properties?]

I guess warehouse manager Perry C could be unemployed by Christmas (although Kim did say he's got a probably temp job for the next several months)

[Elinor]

Aren't the two oldest boys adults? I can't find their age online but I assumed that they were around twenty years old. Am I wrong?

I have all their birthdates, except Justice's. Joshua is 20 and Liberty is 17, so Justice is at least 18.

[Palimpsest]

Apparently some are on Jen's Gems are offended by Truth Lasts very honest post. TL is correct. The parents decided to be blind to common sense. I count myself as one who got into fundamentalism because of an abusive, unstable childhood. On that score, I failed as a parent. Someone called TL vindictive but I don't see the vindictiveness so much as honesty

Reply

I agree there is no vindictiveness there, just righteous anger. She is pointing to the hypocricy, mudslinging and self-congratulatory tone of JensGems. She is also clear that her own parents apologised to her for failing in their responsibilites as parents in joining this "movement." Oddly enough part of maturity is understanding that your parents are not perfect and people do make mistakes, but an apology for a wrong goes a long way towards healing.

Jen takes no responsibility for her own part in jointing the cult, or for her own behavior, ever as far as I can see. She just cries victim over and over again.

I'm glad that LC seems to be holding her own over on JensGems. She slapped down patronizing Andrew nicely all by herself. But Jen needs a bitch slap for calling LC disrespectful.

[nokidsmom]

Yeah. These are also the types of people who obsess about the end of the world and persecution, which will come about by governmental tyranny and micromanagement. I try to avoid people who focus on ebil gubment topics so much now, even though I share a desire for privacy, security, and self-determination, because it seems that, as with so many things in life, it takes one (controlling dictator) to know one. Either that, or it's a function of the proverb, we become what we hate/create what we fear.

Bunny trail aside, yes, Jen is looking worse and worse all the time by her actions. And, since I'm pretty sure Eston = Mark, I wonder what his new (also unstable) wife thinks about how close they still seem to be? It's just distasteful all around.

Re: Jen, IIRC, wasn't around 2006 timeframe that she and Mark got kicked out by Dougie? That's an awfully long time to be obsessing and not coming to any kind of personal resolution about it, even if nothing else, she would get tired of it and just let it go. She still wants to be recognized as someone significant to the VF crowd, but now with it going down in flames, she's still trying to be someone significant to the VF crowd with her posts and so-called inside information and taking down Mrs. Robinson, whom she clearly has an issue with.

FTR, I did find the young man's father's actions more distasteful than the so-called affair.

And I do agree that if by some weird twist, Dougie called her up and asked her to come back to the fold, she would be right there.

[hoipolloi]

And I do agree that if by some weird twist, Dougie called her up and asked her to come back to the fold, she would be right there.

Yep - and so would Mark Eston.

[Palimpsest]

Yep - and so would Mark Eston.

With their tongues hanging out, tails wagging, and bearing gifts!

[Want More Babies]

I started thinking about all the Christian bloggers we follow and how many of them were Vision Forum affiliates. I went to VF website and found this:

On the 21st of January, Vision Forum Inc. began to make some key transitions in our web based technology platform. These changes included upgrades to our inventory, order fulfillment, and shopping cart systems. While we anticipate long term enhancements to our operations and look forward to improvements this new system will bring to our operations, these changes have caused significant short term disruptions portionss of our operation, including the affiliate program.

As of March 26th 2013, Vision Forum suspended the affiliate program until further notice. We will notify our affiliates if and when the affiliate program becomes available again. If you have any questions please contact us.

HMMM this happened right after Doug was no longer a BCA elder. :think: Are they somehow tied together?

Edited for spelling error

[thoughtful]

I have all their birthdates, except Justice's. Joshua is 20 and Liberty is 17, so Justice is at least 18.

Thanks, Elinor. Sorry if my post confused things -- I guess Josh either wrote the "about" section after starting that site, or kept updating it for a few years.

Any chance of your posting month & year for each, so, in future, we can do the math for ourselves?

[starfish]

With their quality homeschooling, Doug the tool's poor children probably don't know when they were born because they don't understand dates, or they are unable to perform the simple addition/subtraction that would enable them to calculate their ages.....Doug has been too busy having affairs of the heart and Beall's probably been too doped up on that McDonald lady's essential oils to do much homeschooling.

[SamuraiKatz]

I also think it's a head game when Eston and Jen say it all fall in to place when I post the second half of my article. I call B.S!

I have Jim Bob Duggar and Jim Holt to thank for my discovery of Vision Forum. Trying to figure out conservative state politician's political agendas took me straight down a rabbit hole...

Oh Wait...Jen answered my question...But I still think it's a mind game all the same.

Jen Says:

December 4, 2013 at 4:14 pm

Sarah, I assure you that TW and I are NOT dragging anything out. We are writing as we come aware of new things. At this point, people are just beginning to break free from the tremendous sense of fear that has held them silent all these years. As they do, many of them contact us with information. Some information we need to corroborate so we do not post until we have witnesses. Some people have been very afraid to share their stories or talk. The more that is openly discussed here, the more people feel free to share.

Also, it is a LOT of work to put these articles together. Not only do we put in hours and hours of research and investigation, but then to turn that material into a well-written article, is very time-consuming. Replying to the comments is very time consuming. And we have tons of private emails, messages, phone calls, and other forms of communication to keep up with as well. I am just glad that TW came along to help me because, right now, it is more than full-time for both of us.

[starfish]

because, right now, it is more than full-time for both of us.

Yeah, Jen, you need a job! or something besides your weird obsession.

[salex]

If I was a snarky speculating sort of woman (and I am) I would wonder if the reason that Peter Bradrick's mother is still in tears is because she is a whole lot more involved than would be the usual bystander. Every other fundie seems to have dried their tears and proceeded on with the business of dividing up profits/people/power or covering up past errors or assigning blame. Could it be that Kelly "I roll under the fence for you" Bradrick is the woman in question and not Hero? Could the financial web have snared the Bradricks even more deeply than seems to be the case? Or is this all the usual fundie hand wringing and hyperbole?

OR, she thought SHE was the only one to whom he had said "My helpmeet doesn't understand me."

If it was someone's bride, wouldn't they have to take her to her father's door step and stone her to death?

[church_of_dog]

"My helpmeet doesn't understand me."

One can never have too many post count titles. :lol:

[Palimpsest]

With their tongues hanging out, tails wagging, and bearing gifts!

You know, the more I think about it -- this is Jen and Mark Eston's motive. Forget VF and all its iniquities -- unless there are a few $$ to pick up.

They think that by exposing Doug as a Cult Leader (and slamming Mrs. Robinson) they will become the local martyrs, conquering heros, valiant knights, saint-like rescuers of the ill-treated, and pick up BCA exactly where Doug and Co left off. They can then run BCA in their own way (which bears an unfortunate resemblance to Doug and Beall's way) and be the big fish in the little puddle that is that tiny congregation on the outskirts of San Antonio.

[debrand]

From Peter Bradrick's facebook page

Danielle Appleman Papageorgiou I have just one question: When is something gossip and when is it exposing the darkness? When are we allowed to talk about someone publicly? When does it not hurt the church to have these types of conversations on Facebook? I mean that sincerely because I know that there does come a time for exposing people. But from my perspective, I have no information about the details of this situation except for the "delicious morsels" (Prov. 18:8) being left here and there on your page, Peter Bradrick. Then I look online and I see your own comments being spread far and wide, along with snarky comments from hateful people in the comments sections, maligning not just the one who sinned so horrifically, but also everything that he taught that was, in fact, truth (despite the hypocrisy). And those who have had any association with him, including godly, upright men, are also being maligned. I am not defending the man because I don't have all the details to do so, nor would I ever defend such a sin. I'm simply saying that I don't believe it's right to gossip and this seems like gossip to me. I just listened to your father-in-law's message about gossip yesterday, in fact. It was very helpful, though it didn't address this specific question. But I do question, based on that message, whether or not you and others are gossiping.

Yesterday at 12:00pm · Edited · 1

I wonder if she means us? And who are the godly men that are being maligned? I don't think that we've snarked on anyone who doesn't deserve it but I'd like to know if we've missed someone.

[Sobeknofret]

Could it be that Kelly "I roll under the fence for you" Bradrick is the woman in question and not Hero? Could the financial web have snared the Bradricks even more deeply than seems to be the case? Or is this all the usual fundie hand wringing and hyperbole?

I suspected from the start that Kelly's involved in this somehow, and I'm still not sure what's up with all that. It does seem like a lot of excessive handwringing and poo-flinging from the Brown/Bradrick camp over this whole mess if no one there's involved in Doug's "sin." I really really hope it's just hyperbole though.

[hoipolloi]

From Peter Bradrick's facebook page

I wonder if she means us? And who are the godly men that are being maligned? I don't think that we've snarked on anyone who doesn't deserve it but I'd like to know if we've missed someone.

She could mean us but may also be referring to Jen's blog as well as Wartburg Watch, SpiritualSoundingBoard, and other conservative religious blogs/websites that have picked up on this story. Just like us, people writing & commenting at these websites have noted the YEAR$ of association that "godly, upright men" and women like the Morecrafts, McDonalds, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Kevin Swanson, etc. have had with DP. If these people were as close to their brother in Christ, Doug Phillips, as they said they were, you have to wonder how they neither knew or noticed anything.

Besides, when it comes to the fall of Doug Phillips Is A Tool and the demise of VF, everyone's a snarker! You can't help it!