Bates Wedding Part 2: Zach N Whitney

[marmalade]

But you ARE implying that they had a shotgun wedding. Given the chaperoning restrictions, I seriously doubt they had much time to do the deed before the wedding. If they even kissed at all, it was likely before Zach brought her home to "meet the parents." And I DO think they kissed; Kelly never made the same proclamations about saving kisses and purity regarding Zach/Whitney that she made for Erin/Chad and is implying for Michael/Brandon and possibly Alyssa/what's his name (sorry, blanked out).

[Tdoc72]

And I DO think they kissed; Kelly never made the same proclamations about saving kisses and purity regarding Zach/Whitney that she made for Erin/Chad and is implying for Michael/Brandon and possibly Alyssa/what's his name (sorry, blanked out).

Anyone got enought balls to ask her in the comments section? (I do not.) :?

[lilith]

Didn't Kelly say that Zach and Whitney had chosen to kiss (in the presence of chaperones) after engagement? Or am I just imagining it?

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

I looked back at the short entry that mentioned Zach and Whit's wedding to see if Kelly had said anything about them saving their first kiss, and I found this gem:

Hi Kelly,

My name is Jane and I am from Australia.

The photos you have posted on this site of Erin and Chad’s wedding are just stunning and I am eagerly waiting for more photos of Zach and Whitney’s wedding.

Out of curiosity I am wondering how both you and your husband Gil would feel if one of your children came to you and said that they have feelings for someone of the same sex? Would you support that child and let them be with the person that they choose, or would you try to discourage that type of relationship? It is not something that either you or the Duggers have ever said during any of your shows (and I have watched a lot of the Duggers shows) and I don’t think I am the only one who has wondered about this.

Looking forward to your honest response,

Jane

December 27, 2013 at 8:47 pm

Dear Jane,

If I bought a car and wanted to know how to have it last and run at its very best, I would need to consult the makers of that car, or the owner’s manual, to find out what the instructions are for proper care and use. Likewise, we have a Creator who knows what is best for us. He knows what will bring us the most joy, and Him the most glory. He has left us a manual, as well, the Bible. We encourage all of our children to follow God’s plan for their lives. Living outside of God’s plan will only bring temporary happiness at best, and it will most definitely end in heartache and despair. God’s Word is very clear to us on this subject. His will is one man and one woman, for life! To someone who might not know the Lord, His restrictions might seem harsh and unloving. Quite the contrary is experienced by those who know and love Him. His ways are best for us, even if we don’t understand. A two year old might cry because his parents buckle him in a car seat. limiting his freedom. The loving parent knows, however, that the car seat will protect him from calamity. Love, Kelly

Also, somebody asks about whether the couples made a vow for the Lord to determine the size of their families, to which Kelly says:

They all love children, and all want the Lord’s will in this area of their lives. They are open to however He guides.

[BullyJBG]

Didn't Kelly say that Zach and Whitney had chosen to kiss (in the presence of chaperones) after engagement? Or am I just imagining it?

As I recall, no, Kelly said that they were also choosing to save their first kiss for the wedding. She did say that Zach wanted to hug Whitney right after he had asked her and she agreed. Someone asked if they would respect their adult son or daughter choosing to kiss before marriage. She said they hope they wait, and all, at least that she's talked to, agree. But does acknowledge that they COULD be sneaking and they'd never know. And they were open to discussing if they need "more privacy". We'll never know, but we'll see if Zach and Whitney actually answer that question, or at least allow it to be posted.

[BirthingGodsWarriors]

So yet another interesting tidbit from that Bates tumblr... Sorry but that page is a Goldmine. No way to check the voracity of the statements but food for thought either way.

Edited to try to make that pic smaller, no idea how though.

[tlcarlaw]

So yet another interesting tidbit from that Bates tumblr... Sorry but that page is a Goldmine. No way to check the voracity of the statements but food for thought either way.

Edited to try to make that pic smaller, no idea how though.

That's weird because Kelly has always said TLC didn't want another season. The ratings were somewhere around 800,000-900,000 which is considered low for TLC they usually want to see ratings over 1 million. I'm sure it would of been hard for them to pass up the extra money.

[formergothardite]

"and all want the Lord’s will in this area of their lives. They are open to however He guides"

They are very good at wording things to make them seem more open-minded than they really are. In Gothard land the "Lord's will" is that they not use any sort of birth control. and "open to however He guides" also means that because God will never guide anyone to limit their family size.

[nausicaa]

That's weird because Kelly has always said TLC didn't want another season. The ratings were somewhere around 800,000-900,000 which is considered low for TLC they usually want to see ratings over 1 million. I'm sure it would of been hard for them to pass up the extra money.

It may have been Erin saving face at school.

[nokidsmom]

But you ARE implying that they had a shotgun wedding. Given the chaperoning restrictions, I seriously doubt they had much time to do the deed before the wedding. If they even kissed at all, it was likely before Zach brought her home to "meet the parents." And I DO think they kissed; Kelly never made the same proclamations about saving kisses and purity regarding Zach/Whitney that she made for Erin/Chad and is implying for Michael/Brandon and possibly Alyssa/what's his name (sorry, blanked out).

What I think: did they do the deed? no. Did they kiss? yes. Agree that by the time Whit met her future in-laws, she and Zach had seen a lot of each other thanks to her job at Sonic and probably kissed at least once by that time. I can see her being totally willing to (because she's done it before) and Zach wasn't going to say no. Gil and Kelly were probably aghast at the fact that a) Zach brought home a girl that he met on his own and not via traditional fundie connections and b) that meant he circumvented traditional courtship rules by seeing someone unchaperoned, never mind that seeing her was while he got lunch or stopped for a soda.

I do find interesting that Kelly is not saying as much about Zach/Whit as she as for her other kids now in marriages/courtships. There might just be for a simple reason that it's what Zach prefers but still it's apparent that Zach and Whit did not totally follow the fundie courtship pattern and she doesn't approve even if it all ended well.

[sunshine]

Or, Kelly doesn't want to rock the boat too much since other families in her circle read her blogs. I am sure she doesn't want to be stumbling block to their children by mentioning that Zach went out outside of their typical courtship rules and they got married and hell and brimstone did not fall from the sky when they did.

[formergothardite]

Or, Kelly doesn't want to rock the boat too much since other families in her circle read her blogs. I am sure she doesn't want to be stumbling block to their children by mentioning that Zach went out outside of their typical courtship rules and they got married and hell and brimstone did not fall from the sky when they did.

She also probably doesn't want them to know that they haven't completely broken the will of their son and he had an independent thought that he acted on. You are also right that they don't want other kids in other families to think that they can make decisions on their own without having something bad happen to them. This is how fragile the fundie system is. Kissing before marriage can cause it to crumble so it must be hidden. This lifestyle is based entirely around fear and once the kids realize they have nothing to fear they parents can't control them and they might start thinking for themselves.

I hate the word stumbling block. We couldn't go see a movie because it might be a stumbling block. We couldn't wear certain clothes because it might be a stumbling block. We were supposed to spend our whole life not doing stuff just in case it would cause someone else to want to do it.

[boxedin]

I'm hoping that John David is "getting to know" one of Whit's friends he met at the wedding.

Kelly wrote something about courtship and said that it involves 2 families and their interpretation of courtship.

Maybe Whit's dad laughed when Zach asked to court and he said "here's 20 bucks, go take her to the movies". They may have refused to do the cell phone monitoring and chaperoning. My parents would have had nothing to do with it.

Shit, now I have to go find this thingy I'm talking about. If I dreamed it, I'm going to be pissed.

[singsingsing]

In Kelly's post about Zach and Whitney's courtship from July, she told a commenter that Zach and Whitney were waiting until marriage to kiss.

[sunshine]

Awww!

by: EZ photography

[boxedin]

About changing from pants to skirts...

Kelly September 16, 2013 at 8:16 am

"Dear MJW,

Well, I guess that is a possibility, since we all feel nervous around our new boyfriend/ girlfriend’s family at first…but I would certainly hope that after we’ve gotten to know each other, that she knows how much we truly adore her!!! I think acceptance and love is something that is seen with time, and Whitney has been patient and accepting of us, for sure! I don’t think its anyone’s place to judge someone’s motives for choices they make. I’ve made decisions for the right motive, because of God’s prompting, but yet people assumed I was just copying someone else or just trying to impress someone. Other times I’ve made decisions for the wrong reasons, but God was able to grow me and show me if I erred. So whether the motive was to follow her heart or to try to show respect to us, I’m not concerned… Whitney has taught me a lot! She has helped me be a better person! I am a blessed woman and mother-in-law to be. If she made that choice to try to please us, it shows what a loving heart she has, and I am confident she’ll see that we accept her and love her (and if you ever meet her, you’ll see that’s easy to do). If she made that choice for God, then we still accept her and love her… Either way, we’re a winner, because of her addition to our lives! So, I guess I’m not as concerned about the motive as I am for her to become a treasured part of our family and to know her great value to all of us! Love, Kelly"

[sunshine]

I don't understand the clamor about Whitney wearing pants then skirts or not. I understand that change of self or the concern about the lost of identity. However, on tv, majority of the women are wearing skirts and/or dresses. Whether they are one the news or sitcom, they are wearing dresses and skirts. Unless you are watching Ellen, she wears pants.

[formergothardite]

I don't understand the clamor about Whitney wearing pants then skirts or not. I understand that change of self or the concern about the lost of identity. However, on tv, majority of the women are wearing skirts and/or dresses. Whether they are one the news or sitcom, they are wearing dresses and skirts. Unless you are watching Ellen, she wears pants.

Because people like the Duggars and Bates wear skirts not because they like to wear them or their children are really choosing to wear them but because of Gothard modesty standards. So Whitney choosing to wear pants and shorts at home would be a sign that she isn't going to give into the Bates modesty rules and that Zach is making choices that his parents don't believe in, which is against Gothard's teachings. There is also a huge difference between office attire(like wearing a skirt as a news announcer because they can also choose to wear dressing pants) and wearing them because you think pants are immodest, going against the Bible and God and causing men to lust and fall into sin.

It is easy for Kelly to say she isn't concerned about motives when Whitney is following their rules, they don't care why she is falling in line, just that she is.

[sunshine]

oooooohhhhhhhhh! Got it. Thanks.

[scc12]

I don't buy it.I think Kelly and Gil both are worried sick about their public reputation and perception as far as their family flock following all the legalism that is ATI.Gil is on the board of directors and there is no way they aren't worried about it,imo.THAT is why they convinced,I mean coerced,Whitney to wear skirts.

[scc12]

Because people like the Duggars and Bates wear skirts not because they like to wear them or their children are really choosing to wear them but because of Gothard modesty standards. So Whitney choosing to wear pants and shorts at home would be a sign that she isn't going to give into the Bates modesty rules and that Zach is making choices that his parents don't believe in, which is against Gothard's teachings. There is also a huge difference between office attire(like wearing a skirt as a news announcer because they can also choose to wear dressing pants) and wearing them because you think pants are immodest, going against the Bible and God and causing men to lust and fall into sin.

It is easy for Kelly to say she isn't concerned about motives when Whitney is following their rules, they don't care why she is falling in line, just that she is.

Also,Gothturd likes to set his followers apart from others as much as he can.It's a common trait of cults.He likes to make them appear / think they are better than others,and wearing skirts is one way they do that.

[nokidsmom]

I don't buy it.I think Kelly and Gil both are worried sick about their public reputation and perception as far as their family flock following all the legalism that is ATI.Gil is on the board of directors and there is no way they aren't worried about it,imo.THAT is why they convinced,I mean coerced,Whitney to wear skirts.

I do think that Kelly and Gil are trying to maintain their reputation as following the ATI legalism to the letter but are finding out that they can't entirely control their kids or how things are supposed to work out (thinking failed courtship here). It's clear Zach met Whit outside of ATI and avoided some of the parent-controlled courtship process, but probably the big thing here is that he did something independently. Oh noes! Kelly's trying to spin it positively of course, but she might be concerned about how all it's appearing to their fundie circle.

On another note, I think as per mentioned upthread, that when Zach approached Whit's dad about courting, it was probably met with a more laid back response than he was expecting. Chances are Whit already talked about this guy she met at Sonic and Whit's folks were just interested in finally meeting him rather than giving a formal OK to courtship. So when Zach asked, it was along the lines of "oh sure".

[scc12]

I do think that Kelly and Gil are trying to maintain their reputation as following the ATI legalism to the letter but are finding out that they can't entirely control their kids or how things are supposed to work out (thinking failed courtship here). It's clear Zach met Whit outside of ATI and avoided some of the parent-controlled courtship process, but probably the big thing here is that he did something independently. Oh noes! Kelly's trying to spin it positively of course, but she might be concerned about how all it's appearing to their fundie circle.

On another note, I think as per mentioned upthread, that when Zach approached Whit's dad about courting, it was probably met with a more laid back response than he was expecting. Chances are Whit already talked about this guy she met at Sonic and Whit's folks were just interested in finally meeting him rather than giving a formal OK to courtship. So when Zach asked, it was along the lines of "oh sure".

good thoughts.also with Whit's father being a pastor,I hope he encouraged them to search the bible and see for themselves what God wants.He might could give some pretty good insight (hopefully) into how Gothturd has twisted the verses for his own gain.

The more I find out about these families,the Bates and the Duggars...especially the Duggars...the more I find them to be disingenious (sp) at best. Kelly with the all smiles and 'we just love Whit!' demeanor...oh come on.I'm not saying they hate her but I think their rep is suffering and they are very worried about what everyone thinks of them.Kelly was the one who threw Sarah under the bus by telling everyone that she was the one who ended the courtship,instead of just saying it ended.

In short,their whole identity is wrapped up in the ATI lifestyle and what others perceive of them.Can't let that slip!

[Mela99]

I think that she'll keep with skirts whenever she's at their house, but I think Zach would be open to whatever she wants at their home.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

In my own little fantasy about Mr and Mrs Zach Bates, I imagine that Zach thinks the pants are really sexy on Whitney. She was probably wearing pants when she met him if they met at her job at Sonic. I also imagine that Zach was shirtless and Whitney was in a bikini on a secluded beach in Hawaii.