My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding

[formergothardite]

I'm sorry formergothardite, I thought PM'g a single person would be the best route to go and avoid derailing the actual topic.

Anyway this was the PM I sent:

And that's exactly what I did I made a mistake, I apologized for it, and backed off. Now I'll go back to lurking in this thread.

We derail threads here on a regular basis. Threads that stay on topic are not the norm. :lol: And I don't know why that would just be addressed to me, anyway. And I am all confused. Are you flouncing from this thread because you made a mistake as in you were wrong for what you posted or as in if you knew people were going to challenge your beliefs you would have kept them to yourself? Because if it is the latter, then that is just lame that you want to continue in willful ignorance. If it is the first, then why wouldn't you want to say that on this thread?

[tropaka]

Couldn't the parents get in legal trouble for not at least, homeschooling their children?

While education in Ontario is mandatory until 18 unless a parent states that they are homeschooling etc, the max fine is $200 to a parent plus restrictions put on a child who is truant (curfew etc - I know way too much about this since I have a son who absolutely refuses to go to school much of the time). I have a feeling they want to go the culturally sensitive route of trying to improve the attendance issues with Roma kids rather than punish.

[geniebelle6901]

We derail threads here on a regular basis. Threads that stay on topic are not the norm. :lol: And I don't know why that would just be addressed to me, anyway. And I am all confused. Are you flouncing from this thread because you made a mistake as in you were wrong for what you posted or as in if you knew people were going to challenge your beliefs you would have kept them to yourself? Because if it is the latter, then that is just lame that you want to continue in willful ignorance. If it is the first, then why wouldn't you want to say that on this thread?

As to why I chose you to PM, you were the first person I though of. As to the other part, The mistake was I was wrong for posting something implying killing people of a different culture (that was one big WTF on my part) , I apologized for it (and I meant it), and chose to leave the thread as promised. I'm trying to be a better person than I was a couple of months ago, and continuing to post in this thread would be an even bigger mistake, because I can see myself turning into super bitch again, and I don't want to do that.

Now....this will be my last post in this thread.

[fluttershies]

So your actual attitude hasn't changed, you just flounce earlier than before?

[formergothardite]

As to why I chose you to PM, you were the first person I though of. As to the other part, The mistake was I was wrong for posting something implying killing people of a different culture (that was one big WTF on my part) , I apologized for it (and I meant it), and chose to leave the thread as promised. I'm trying to be a better person than I was a couple of months ago, and continuing to post in this thread would be an even bigger mistake, because I can see myself turning into super bitch again, and I don't want to do that.

Now....this will be my last post in this thread.

If you are still believing like you did(that this entire culture isn't worth saving and should be destroyed) based on a tv show then you are no different than you were a month or so ago. You are still a super bitch on the inside, you have just learned not to post it because you will be challenged. If you want to be a better person, then allow your beliefs to be challenged.

[valsa]

Geniebelle kind of reminds me of a kickass quote (just replace "dreams"/"productive"/"creative" with "a better person")

"You look like you're going to spend your life having one epiphany after another, always thinking you've finally figured out what's holding you back, and how you can finally be productive and creative and turn your life around. But nothing will ever change. That cycle of mediocrity isn't due to some obstacle. It's who you are. The thing standing in the way of your dreams... is that the person having them is you."

She'll continually turn over a new leaf to be a better person without it ever sticking because, in the end, she's just not a very good person.

[bananacat]

I wish that geniebelle had never been given a second chance when she broke the sockpuppet rule. It's extra work to ignore her a second time, but it's definitely worth it and I recommend it to everyone. I wouldn't put it past her to create a second sock if enough people ignore her though. But for those who wish to continue engaging her, can you please not quote her text to be courteous to those of us who don't want to read her posts? Or at least hide it behind a spoiler button.

[JesusFightClub]

Geniebelle kind of reminds me of a kickass quote (just replace "dreams"/"productive"/"creative" with "a better person")

"You look like you're going to spend your life having one epiphany after another, always thinking you've finally figured out what's holding you back, and how you can finally be productive and creative and turn your life around. But nothing will ever change. That cycle of mediocrity isn't due to some obstacle. It's who you are. The thing standing in the way of your dreams... is that the person having them is you."

She'll continually turn over a new leaf to be a better person without it ever sticking because, in the end, she's just not a very good person.

*applauds Valsa* Excellent summary of the situation. This is totally it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I wish that geniebelle had never been given a second chance when she broke the sockpuppet rule.

I think it is fair enough that she wasn't banned on that occasion, because she had not been banned in the first place and did not create the new account under the pretence of being somebody new. She just made herself look a bit ridiculous by starting the 'comeback' thread with the announcement that the mods had given her a 'second chance' as though it held more meaning than that they had simply accepted her technical explanation for creating the new account.

I also get why many were/are prepared to give her a second chance on a personal level, because it is hard to move out of fundiedom in one fell swoop. I don't think she has a jot of self-awareness at this point though, and I'm tired of hearing her bullshit.

[formergothardite]

She claims she isn't a fundie. And (besides the whole thing with her church) I don't think that she is fundie in the religious way like most of our fundies. She is just more of a "My way is always right" type of person. If she really wanted to be a better person, she wouldn't have flounced from this thread, she would have stayed and learned. The only two options aren't "Be a flaming bitch and cuss everyone out." and "Flounce whenever my beliefs are challenged." Most people are capable of discussing why they believe what they believe and if they are wrong admitting it, without acting like she has in the past. She doesn't want to hear that the show might be not be showing all the of the culture, just the parts that make good television. She wants to continue to believe an entire culture should be destroyed based on a tv show, even if it isn't the truth.

To be a better person, you have to be willing to change what is on the inside, not just outward actions. Genie only wants to do the latter and then wants people to act like she has "really changed."

[geniebelle6901]

I can see resistance is futile. I said I was wrong, apologized for what I said, and tried to bow out before things got out of hand. I made that promise, and wanted to keep that promise. Oh well...at least I tried. Anyway, I wasn't running away. I do still read this thread, so I"m not afraid of what anybody had to say. I just trying to keep my promise....nothing more & nothing less.

I one of my last posts I said gypsy/traveller culture shouldn't be preserved. I did not mean kill them off. That heinous to even think about much less do. I mean assimilation or something like that. Any culture that practices wifely submission, abuse, lack of basic education, child brides, criminal activity, poor sanitation, etc. is no better than the fundies we snark on, and not one I can respect. Furthermore every time I read an article where a gypsy or traveller cries perscution, it reminds me of fundies who do the same thing when they are sharked on. I know there are good, law-abiding gypsies & travellers. So I'm not referring to them, just the ones who practice the things I mentioned above.

Also geniebelle, considering that it's OK for an American politician to call a young woman a slut because she wants access to birth control, the US absolutely has a rape culture that is not due to minority groups. Just because people don't usually walk around saying how great rape is doesn't mean that the culture of abuse is not there. The lack of consent in Traveller grabbing is not seen to be problematic by that culture, but it is still a problem - just like rape jokes are often seen as not problematic by mainstream American culture, but still are wrong. That doesn't mean that the whole of mainstream American culture should be obliterated, so neither should Roma or Traveller cultures. Why are they inferior to mainstream American culture?

No, not ok to deny access to birth control or slut shame any woman/teenage gril who uses birth control. Yes, the U.S. has it's criminal element, but we don't condone it, and we have a legal system to handle it. Is it perfect? No, and it can be better. Gypsies & travellers should obey the law like everybody else, and legal action taken against them when they break the law. Once again, I never meant obliterate or kill any one.

Too bad Genie isn't ready to drop the willfully ignorant part of her culture.

I have already said it's time for Southern culture to change it's ass-backwards ways at least twice in this thread.

the Romani word 'Gadje' (not Gorga/Gorger) actually means 'countrymen

It's all in how the the recipient perceives and not what the speaker meant, and when used in the same sentence as girls it amounts to saying slut or whore.

BTW, I have read the links provided, and while I understand the point, I can't help but be a little suspicious, but I will try to keep an open mind.

Now, I have some ideas:

1) Would it be possible to have teachers or tutors come into gypsy/traveller communities and at least give the kids a basic education while being respectful of their beliefs? And when they are ready to hit the road again, they can take their records with them.

2) What about trailer parks with facilities for toilets and showers? That would take care of the sanitation problem.

3) How about a nurse practitioner, midwife, med student/resident come by to offer basic health care? I know there is universal health care in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong), but do gypsies & travellers actually make use of it unless they are seriously ill or injured?

Any thoughts?

[Guest Anonymous]

I can see resistance is futile. I said I was wrong, apologized for what I said, and tried to bow out before things got out of hand. I made that promise, and wanted to keep that promise. Oh well...at least I tried. Anyway, I wasn't running away. I do still read this thread, so I"m not afraid of what anybody had to say. I just trying to keep my promise....nothing more & nothing less.

I one of my last posts I said gypsy/traveller culture shouldn't be preserved. I did not mean kill them off. That heinous to even think about much less do. I mean assimilation or something like that. Any culture that practices wifely submission, abuse, lack of basic education, child brides, criminal activity, poor sanitation, etc. is no better than the fundies we snark on, and not one I can respect. Furthermore every time I read an article where a gypsy or traveller cries perscution, it reminds me of fundies who do the same thing when they are sharked on. I know there are good, law-abiding gypsies & travellers. So I'm not referring to them, just the ones who practice the things I mentioned above.

No, not ok to deny access to birth control or slut shame any woman/teenage gril who uses birth control. Yes, the U.S. has it's criminal element, but we don't condone it, and we have a legal system to handle it. Is it perfect? No, and it can be better. Gypsies & travellers should obey the law like everybody else, and legal action taken against them when they break the law. Once again, I never meant obliterate or kill any one.

I have already said it's time for Southern culture to change it's ass-backwards ways at least twice in this thread.

It's all in how the the recipient perceives and not what the speaker meant, and when used in the same sentence as girls it amounts to saying slut or whore.

BTW, I have read the links provided, and while I understand the point, I can't help but be a little suspicious, but I will try to keep an open mind.

Now, I have some ideas:

1) Would it be possible to have teachers or tutors come into gypsy/traveller communities and at least give the kids a basic education while being respectful of their beliefs? And when they are ready to hit the road again, they can take their records with them.

2) What about trailer parks with facilities for toilets and showers? That would take care of the sanitation problem.

3) How about a nurse practitioner, midwife, med student/resident come by to offer basic health care? I know there is universal health care in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong), but do gypsies & travellers actually make use of it unless they are seriously ill or injured?

Any thoughts?

We already do have health and education initiatives that target traveller communities. Google is your friend here. If you want to join in a meaningful discussion, why not give some thought to the responses that FG and others have given to your rant about assimilation.

Or flounce away. I'm getting bored of you so I'm reaching for the "foe" button now.

[geniebelle6901]

You're right, sorry. But are the travellers really taking advantage of it or just telling them to do away? The high infant mortality rate makes me wonder.

[Sola]

Now, I have some ideas:

1) Would it be possible to have teachers or tutors come into gypsy/traveller communities and at least give the kids a basic education while being respectful of their beliefs? And when they are ready to hit the road again, they can take their records with them.

2) What about trailer parks with facilities for toilets and showers? That would take care of the sanitation problem.

3) How about a nurse practitioner, midwife, med student/resident come by to offer basic health care? I know there is universal health care in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong), but do gypsies & travellers actually make use of it unless they are seriously ill or injured?

Any thoughts?

Well there are issues with all that.

1. If teachers and tutors were sent into travelling Rroma and Irish traveller communities the first thing that will happen is people will start complaining that their taxes are having to pay for that. They'll be wanting to know why these communities get special treatment. I know this because here in the UK we HAVE the traveller education service. It is woefully underfunded and generally the travellers are encouraged enrol their children in the local schools. However when they do they face prejudice and bullying. So parents do what any parent would do, they pull their children out.

2. In the UK we have established traveller sites. These have electricity hook ups, running water and are similar to holiday camp sites in a way - though they are just for travellers. However over recent years many have been closed and they are now few and far between. The government did push local authorities to build new ones, but guess what? Nobody wants a traveller site on their doorstep.

3. Yes they do, when you are travelling you can register with any GP. So you move to one place and register with that GP and then when you move on you register with one local to your new location. The healthcare of travellers in the UK isn't that bad really. It is comparable to any other working class family really. There is poorer health among Rroma who have recently come from eastern European countries, but mostly those health problems were prevalent before the Rroma arrived. Most of these Rroma however are not what you would call true travellers as they live in low income housing and not caravans. These new Rroma immigrants do what everybody else does, they register with a GP in their local community.

[geniebelle6901]

I see you point, Sola. I can see the issues with how taxpayer money is spent. That would not go over well here in the U.S. and/or other countries. The only thing I can see at this point is the nomadic lifestyle ending at some point. But, when that happens they will still have their traditions (music, food, religion, etc).

[formergothardite]

Genie, what you seem to be missing is that nobody here is saying the bad parts should be done away with, just that there are more to the culture than just bad parts. You are saying that they need to drop all of their culture(even the good parts) and go be like everyone else. That is what people find offensive.

[geniebelle6901]

I'm not missing the point, and what is equally offensive is that nobody really wants to address the issues except throw around some links. Some one posted some very startling statistics a few pages back, but yet any mention of change within the cultures is considered offensive. I'm sorry, but would much rather see people live a somewhat healthy life and give up their culture than become another statistic.

[valsa]

I'm not missing the point, and what is equally offensive is that nobody really wants to address the issues except throw around some links. Some one posted some very startling statistics a few pages back, but yet any mention of change within the cultures is considered offensive. I'm sorry, but would much rather see people live a somewhat healthy life and give up their culture than become another statistic.

Except you didn't say anything about change within the culture. You said the entire culture should be thrown in the trash, just because some of it is bad.

If a culture is 45% bad and 55% good (which isn't far off from some segments of American culture), why should the people of that culture have to give up the whole thing (including the 55% of it that is good)?

[valsa]

Yes, the U.S. has it's criminal element, but we don't condone it, and we have a legal system to handle it.

Like hell we don't condone illegal things.

An adult man with a gun kills an unarmed teenager and some parts of our society hold him up as if he's a hero. Some segments of our culture promote a widespread environment where people who co-operate with law enforcement officers ("snitching") are threatened. A number of states have essentially illegalized a legal medical procedure through underhanded and backdoor means, with the support of a significant portion of our countries' population. A depressing number of people (including political figures with a slim-but-real shot at running the country) excuse violence and discrimination against women, children, and other minorities and even participate in it.

If you want the Roma to give up all of their culture and assimilate into another one, you'd better have a damn better culture for them to assimilate into than our's.

[helloemi]

Being stripped of their culture didn't work so well for Native Americans :?

Aaaaaanyways!

I wanted to suggest the book Gypsy Boy by Mikey Walsh for anyone interested in Romani culture. It is a memoir of a young man (ages 6-15 in the book) that is gay and therefor a dissappointment to his father. He does a great job portraying what gender roles and daily life are in a Romani family. Many of the things mentioned in the TV show are discussed in the book. For example grabbing, no value in education, very submissive women, men being womanizers/abusive. But Mikey also talks about the job of having a large extended family and the pride he still takes in being a Gypsy even after his father basically put a hit out on him.

This is a link to an article about the author.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life- ... ikey-84547

[formergothardite]

Where the hell is Genie getting that people here are offended by change in the culture? It has been said over and over and over that there are parts that need to be changed. What IS being said is that the entire culture shouldn't be destroyed and they shouldn't be forced to lose the good parts of their culture and adopt another culture. Which IS what Genie said should happen. Nobody was offended by you saying that the bad parts should be changed because that isn't what you said, that is what everyone else said.

[bananacat]

I think it is fair enough that she wasn't banned on that occasion, because she had not been banned in the first place and did not create the new account under the pretence of being somebody new. She just made herself look a bit ridiculous by starting the 'comeback' thread with the announcement that the mods had given her a 'second chance' as though it held more meaning than that they had simply accepted her technical explanation for creating the new account.

I also get why many were/are prepared to give her a second chance on a personal level, because it is hard to move out of fundiedom in one fell swoop. I don't think she has a jot of self-awareness at this point though, and I'm tired of hearing her bullshit.

She claims she wasn't trying to be deceptive, but I still wonder if she created the sock just to get around all the people who had ignored on her on her previous account. She had to have known that many people had added her to their ignore lists and I think she was unhappy with the lack of attention and created a new account so people would have to look at what she wrote. She wasn't trying to get around a banning because she hadn't been banned, but I don't believe for a second that her motive was as innocent as she claims.

[geniebelle6901]

Where the hell is Genie getting that people here are offended by change in the culture? It has been said over and over and over that there are parts that need to be changed. What IS being said is that the entire culture shouldn't be destroyed and they shouldn't be forced to lose the good parts of their culture and adopt another culture. Which IS what Genie said should happen. Nobody was offended by you saying that the bad parts should be changed because that isn't what you said, that is what everyone else said.

Because change will require assimilation and giving up part of their culture even some of the good parts. I don't see change happening any other way, and when I mention anything about changing their culture, that's when I'm called offensive. To be honest, I would rather see people live than to continue becoming victims of their own culture, even if it means losing part are all of that culture.

[geniebelle6901]

She claims she wasn't trying to be deceptive, but I still wonder if she created the sock just to get around all the people who had ignored on her on her previous account. She had to have known that many people had added her to their ignore lists and I think she was unhappy with the lack of attention and created a new account so people would have to look at what she wrote. She wasn't trying to get around a banning because she hadn't been banned, but I don't believe for a second that her motive was as innocent as she claims.

And you are wrong. If created a sock just to get around being on somebody's foe list, then why would I have created a new user name that was my old one with just some numbers added and identified myself when asked? That makes so sense.

[Guest Anonymous]

She claims she wasn't trying to be deceptive, but I still wonder if she created the sock just to get around all the people who had ignored on her on her previous account. She had to have known that many people had added her to their ignore lists and I think she was unhappy with the lack of attention and created a new account so people would have to look at what she wrote. She wasn't trying to get around a banning because she hadn't been banned, but I don't believe for a second that her motive was as innocent as she claims.

This post was made by geniebelle6901 who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

This post was made by geniebelle6901 who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

Ah well, it's easy to turn the sound down again... ;)