My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding

[Anise]

But they still face a huge amount of prejudice in Europe - Sarkozy even "repatriated" some to Romania in 2010!

Is it also true that a far right UK political party is in favor of repatriating Roma people to India?

[donks]

That's how I had always heard it, too.

Josie never seemed like the type to beat someone up, I'm a little surprised. I don't have cable anymore.....is she dressing the baby up in sparkles and belly shirts?

I didn't notice the baby in club wear... But then everyone elses' outfits on the show scorch my retinas, so *shrug* I might have missed it! ;)

[constantgardener]

I have the same problem with discussing Islam. Given the shit innocent Muslims in America have had to deal with for the past decade, I'm hesitant to criticize even the parts of their religion and culture that they share with the fundies we bitch about here. I don't want to appear to be in league with those bash any Muslim just for being Muslim, same as I don't want to be lumped in with anyone who bashed the Roma just for being Roma.

This. I live in an English county with a traditionally high number of gypsies/travellers due to the seasonal agricultural work (which is now mainly done by the Polish but that's another story). A couple of years ago there was a proposal to provide new permanent sites for gypsies in my area, one of which would be in my village. There was absolute uproar locally. People who I would have thought better of were sending me invites to join 'anti-gypsy' facebook groups. This site would have held 10 caravans and was down a dirt track on the edge of the village. There was an exhibition held in the next village where you could go and inspect the plans etc. I went and was met by a guy from an 'anti' campaign group. He asked me where I lived and when I told him he said, "oh yes, good to see you, we're getting a lot of support from your village". I was really mad and told him in no uncertain terms that I was there in support of the site, not against it and I resented the assumption to the contrary. He looked as if he'd been smacked in the face.

One of the main catch-22 issues for me is that no-one wants gypsies to actually travel any more - no-one wants them pulling up on their doorstep. But neither do they want them to have permanent sites anywhere, creating an eyesore and 'using public services'. What, then, are they supposed to do? This is where, despite the many things about their lifestyle that I disagree with, I will defend them to the hilt, because we will end up completely killing off a historic nomadic lifestyle. Just because these people are living in Europe and America, rather than, say, the Amazon, doesn't make their cultures and customs less valuable or worth preserving.

The thing that makes me snigger ironically is those middle-class anti-traveller types who pay good money for a holiday in a traditional gypsy caravan. :roll:

[tropaka]

I can't stand the clubby outfits and poses they had the girls doing their first communion wearing.

re Bohunk from wiki

(North America) a person of east-central European descent. Originally referred to those of Bohemian (now Czech Republic) descent. It was commonly used toward Ukrainian immigrants during the early 20th century.[20] See also hunky.

[donks]

I didn't know it was a slur.

Apologies again.

Around here it's always described a beefy, not-too-smart guy. That doesn't make it right though, and now that I know it's actually a slur I won't use it anymore.

Imagine, if you will, a stereotypical football lineman. Ever seen the movie Varsity Blues? Think Billy Bob. That's the kind of guy that word describes in my area.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

This makes me wonder though, is "hunk" (as in, "wow that guy is a total hunk!!!" good meaning) originally from "bohunk"? I suppose it could be, just kept the "beefy" part and lost the "not so bright" part...

[Glass Cowcatcher]

:roll:

This. I live in an English county with a traditionally high number of gypsies/travellers due to the seasonal agricultural work (which is now mainly done by the Polish but that's another story). A couple of years ago there was a proposal to provide new permanent sites for gypsies in my area, one of which would be in my village. There was absolute uproar locally. People who I would have thought better of were sending me invites to join 'anti-gypsy' facebook groups. This site would have held 10 caravans and was down a dirt track on the edge of the village. There was an exhibition held in the next village where you could go and inspect the plans etc. I went and was met by a guy from an 'anti' campaign group. He asked me where I lived and when I told him he said, "oh yes, good to see you, we're getting a lot of support from your village". I was really mad and told him in no uncertain terms that I was there in support of the site, not against it and I resented the assumption to the contrary. He looked as if he'd been smacked in the face.

One of the main catch-22 issues for me is that no-one wants gypsies to actually travel any more - no-one wants them pulling up on their doorstep. But neither do they want them to have permanent sites anywhere, creating an eyesore and 'using public services'. What, then, are they supposed to do? This is where, despite the many things about their lifestyle that I disagree with, I will defend them to the hilt, because we will end up completely killing off a historic nomadic lifestyle. Just because these people are living in Europe and America, rather than, say, the Amazon, doesn't make their cultures and customs less valuable or worth preserving.

The thing that makes me snigger ironically is those middle-class anti-traveller types who pay good money for a holiday in a traditional gypsy caravan. :roll:

This smells like it has the makings of another Gaza type situation, just what the world needs.

[Deleted03]

This smells like it has the makings of another Gaza type situation, just what the world needs.

some have sedentarized in France, but still living the same conditions where people want them to stop moving all the time but don't want them in their villages.

I won't lie, I've seen some of them acting absolutely horridly in stores, but then everyone was looking at them weirdly to begin with. then they decided to be loud and try to pay less for the groceries. Anyway, it's a vicious circle, and I think the inadequacy of governments to deal with traveling populations is also incredible. They've been living there for so long, can someone devise a fucking plan and learn how to teach their kids, and help them learn something else than extreme poverty and resort to illegal means of earning money?

[Witsec5]

All they get is the $15000 dress. The rest of their life is crap. Makes me very sad.

And I don't get the part about the men getting to do what they want while the women remain pure. I went out with a mormon guy a couple of times when I was 19 and he was extremely upset that I didn't sleep with him. I wasn't girlfriend material I guess but he thought I was the kind of girl who would put out. That's what he thought of us non-Mormon girls.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The sedentary caravan opposition situation sort of reminds me of some of the dustups that happen in the US over Section 8 housing. There's this big move to dismantle the large public housing projects (which absolutely had issues from their very founding, many directly due to discrimination already) and the idea is to disperse the residents into the wider community in mixed housing areas, to avoid the concentration of poverty, supposedly give kids "good role models" (yeah, kinda questionable already, but hey).

Problem is, always the actual number of truly low-income units goes down, but on top of that, there's always the "oh no you don't, don't build that low income housing in OUR neighborhood, heavens no" and demonization of Section 8 to the point that no areas ever want to have the housing near them.

Basically it's an issue of "go be poor somewhere else where we can pretend there's no problem."

Someone in the newspaper article complaining about the unreality of the TV show mentioned that her dress was secondhand. That, plus the sheer SIZE of some of those dresses combined with the tiny caravans makes me wonder if there's a decent secondhand market for those things among the more "normal" residents, or where on earth would they store the dresses? Perhaps they only rent the petticoat part and the rest actually does fold up, or what?

(Never seen a dress like that in actual person, so I'm just curious, they seem so very 3-D, y'know?)

[moreorlessnu]

I question whether the people in the British version of "Fat Gypsy Wedding" have actually never had sex together. Specifically, Josie and Swanley were relaxing and giving a talking head interview at the end of their wedding instead of running off to be together for the first time.

By comparison, the Fundies we have seen were looked either like scared rabbits, or seemed raring to go at it.

[shesinsane]

All they get is the $15000 dress. The rest of their life is crap. Makes me very sad.

And I don't get the part about the men getting to do what they want while the women remain pure. I went out with a mormon guy a couple of times when I was 19 and he was extremely upset that I didn't sleep with him. I wasn't girlfriend material I guess but he thought I was the kind of girl who would put out. That's what he thought of us non-Mormon girls.

Purity is an issue for females only, males get a pass (defrauding is the woman's responsibility, the man is her victim). Outsider women are not worthy of marriage, so feel free to love 'em and leave 'em.

This works as a general description for more than just the Gypsy/Roma/Travelers. In many cultures and religions the treatment of outsiders completely differers from how one treats one's neighbors.

[Maul the Koala]

I question whether the people in the British version of "Fat Gypsy Wedding" have actually never had sex together. Specifically, Josie and Swanley were relaxing and giving a talking head interview at the end of their wedding instead of running off to be together for the first time.

By comparison, the Fundies we have seen were looked either like scared rabbits, or seemed raring to go at it.

Josie and Swanley have a baby girl now (Josie III) so they had to have sex somewhere along the line.

It's such a hard topic. The Italian government rounded up all the Romany prior to the Olympics in Torino and deported them. Or as many as they could as possible. There is a seething hatred for the Romany. There is a lady that runs the English Cemetary in Florence (link here it's not the best site in the world) and she purposely employs Romany to help break the cycle of poverty and reduce reliance on pickpocketing. I believe she also teaches them how to read and write but I can't remember offhand. It's very hard to gain the trust of the Romany so I'm not sure what the answer is. :(

Edit: I'm reading a piece on Cheyanne's wedding and wow at some of the Traveller girls' names. One is called Baby Doll. I remember there were girls called Boo and Nan-Girl on the show itself.

[debrand]

Although I am trying to be fair to the Travelers on the show, their attitudes toward women disturb me. It bothers me especially when they describe women as property.

My daughter and I both screamed at the tv when the young woman stated that at least 16 year old Traveler girls marry their father's children. She made it sounds as if there were only two choices, have a baby at 16 without being married or have a baby at 16 while being married. Surely, she realized that some girls go to college and postpone motherhood.

What happens to a Traveler or Roma girl who gets pregnant before marriage? Is she shunned?

I wish that they would show Traveler or Roma girls who were continuing with their education.

[debrand]

Am I the only 1 watching this? Pretty Josie that married the Bohunk, Swanley is wearing an ankle bracelet-on trailer arrest for beating a girl up!

That confused me. Didn't the announcer say that there was a connection between the girl she beat up and her father's assault charge. Josie expressed annoyance that people go to the police now. Does grassing mean to tattle?

What I don't understand is how the film crew can stand by and watch a girl be sexually assaulted and do nothing. It would be interesting to know why the American Roma do not practice grabbing but Irish Travelers do. (In the American version the woman used the term, Roma) If I was the producer, I would have asked the fathers how they feel about boys grabbing and forcing their daughters to kiss them. If the fathers own the daughters shouldn't they be responsible for protecting them from assualt?

[marmalade]

Oh man, tonight's episode beats all. We were introduced to the US's version of Paddy. Pat Baby may only have two kids (became a daddy at 18, woohoo!), but the guy was drunk in every scene and the way he hugged his daughter was verging on inappropriate.

The pool of potential grooms for the 14 year old gir (whose name I've already forgotten..she's Pat Baby's daughter)l were all scuzzballs. I'll be happy never to see a wifebeater ever again.

[JesusFightClub]

First of all, I don't think all gypsies are like the ones portrayed, and TLC is doing a lot of fact hiding. With that said, the prejudice that the featured gypsies/travellers face are mostly of their own doing. And, I think season 2 of the British version is highlighting that fact. Heck they are even admitting that 1 man was in prison and couldn't be there for his daughter's first communion, another for assault, and another facing jail time for receiving stolen property (not saying that guy was guilty since that wasn't stated on the show). They buy land for a trailer park, but continually violate the terms of the agreement. IF that is the reason they were evicted, then that's not discrimination...it's a breach of contract. I do feel somewhat sorry for them. But, from what I understand they had 2 years if not longer to either adhere to the terms of the contract of face eviction. There may have been other issues and even some discrimination. I'm only speaking to what I have seen and read.

They feel entitled to respect, but yet don't address the problems that exist in their culture: Lack of education grabbing, urinating and defecating outside, trashing reception venues, arranging fights (not the kind that result from a heated argument), violating contracts, squatting on land that doesn't belong to them, and the illegal activities they engage. Yes, some these things happen in all cultures, but that does not mean I have to respect them for acting the way they do. It has noting to do with race or ethnicity, but their behavior. I feel the exact same way towards people who act that way here in the U.S. All of these problems need to be addressed in every culture. But, that's just the problem, nobody wants to admit their culture or way of life has problems. As to how to fix that I don't know. A lot of of the time change has be forced. Which is a terrible to say, and not something believe in, but it looks like that's what's going to happen.

The point of trying to change is to make a better life for yourself and your family, and to prove to the public that you want to change/have changed, and and want to be a productive member of society. Of course you won't be able to change everybody's mind, but some is better than none. Overtime your children have a better chance of being seen as productive citizens.

ETA: I can't spell or use proper punctuation today!

Going for a piss etc outside is a cultural belief. They don't find it hygenic to do that where you prepare meals.

And I can't slag them off for arrests or criminal records. I've been arrested, in fact I know more people who have than who haven't. I have a comrade right now doing a three year sentence, my brother has a conviction, my sister in law (now deid) had one of assault to injury for glassing another girl. My charge was conspiracy to breach the peace. We were also involved in a murder trial. Life just gets complex.

[xDreamerx]

In terms of the unmarried girls getting pregnant (someone asked upthread) there was mention of one in a British episode. The producer asked about cleaning and one of them said they had to clean or they would be talked about, "Oh she's dirty, don't talk to her."...then they mentioned a girl whose trailer was dirty and that no one wanted her. They added, "She has a baby and she's not even married." She was living on the site so it would seem she wasn't physically shunned but she was probably socially shunned and gossiped about.

Last night's episode was hilarious. The father was like an overgrown frat boy/ the Gypsy version of Jon Gosselin. WTF was that Jack Sparrow outfit?! LOL.

[Sola]

Is it also true that a far right UK political party is in favor of repatriating Roma people to India?

The BNP is in favour of repatriating anyone who isn't WASP.

Edit: damn dyslexic fingers

[donks]

That confused me. Didn't the announcer say that there was a connection between the girl she beat up and her father's assault charge. Josie expressed annoyance that people go to the police now. Does grassing mean to tattle?

What I don't understand is how the film crew can stand by and watch a girl be sexually assaulted and do nothing. It would be interesting to know why the American Roma do not practice grabbing but Irish Travelers do. (In the American version the woman used the term, Roma) If I was the producer, I would have asked the fathers how they feel about boys grabbing and forcing their daughters to kiss them. If the fathers own the daughters shouldn't they be responsible for protecting them from assualt?

I think her Dad beat up a guy, and Josie beat up a girl who was related to the dude Dad beat up. Does that make sense lol. The announcers said something and she griped about the girl going to the cops.......

[geniebelle6901]

Going for a piss etc outside is a cultural belief. They don't find it hygenic to do that where you prepare meals.

They are also shitting outside, and not always in a porta-pot. Sometimes it's outside a public building or outside someone's house. It's a potential public health hazard, so I don't care if they think it's unhygienic to have a bathroom in their homes/trailers or use public restrooms. Public health and safety trumps culture as far as I'm concerned. Do we really want populations of people becoming sick from or dying from diseases just to preserve a "culture"?

[reds]

Going for a piss etc outside is a cultural belief. They don't find it hygenic to do that where you prepare meals.

And I can't slag them off for arrests or criminal records. I've been arrested, in fact I know more people who have than who haven't. I have a comrade right now doing a three year sentence, my brother has a conviction, my sister in law (now deid) had one of assault to injury for glassing another girl. My charge was conspiracy to breach the peace. We were also involved in a murder trial. Life just gets complex.

I am sorry but i read this and burst out laughing. I really hope my life doesnt get this complex. lol

[geniebelle6901]

Just watched last night's American episode, and the only thing I can say is that what I saw was just plain 'ol redneck trash with a little bit of Gypsy thrown in. I did however feel sorry for Pat loosing his sister.

[JesusFightClub]

LOL Reds, I will keep my fingers crossed it doesn't get that complex for you :D

People just get really scandalised at run ins with the polis. Such is life...

[snarkykitty]

The one gown last night had 14,000 swarovski crystals. If you think they are at least a $1 a pop...

I'm not one to split hairs but the 2-mm flat-backed crystals retail for around 13 cents apiece, wholesale around 10 cents a piece, and when you buy tens of thousands like the most recent girl's outfits did, they cost around five cents each. That's still a whole lot of crystals and a crazy amount of work, but it's no where near $1 each.