My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding

[debrand]

I find it interesting that when various groups are criticized for pulling their kids out of school, encouraging their kids to drop out, or whatever it is, it seems that the Amish are largely given a pass.

People seem to romanticize their lifestyle in a way they don't extend to the other groups, though personally I think the Amish lack of education is every bit as problematic, particularly in the modern days when "they'll just go work on family farms and live the romantic lifestyle" just isn't as sustainable (any more than is the "well, he'll just go work in the mill like his father did" holds for secular dropout kids).

Same with the religious groups who don't do any secular education in their schools after that similar age.

Also, definitely the Mustard Museum!!

I agree about the Amish. They should not get a pass when it comes to educating their children. Not allowing kids to get educated beyond the eighth grade makes it nearly impossible for them to leave the group.

[debrand]

THIS! How is female submission, blatant sexism and misogyny, racial slurs like gorger (would anybody here call Voddie Bauchman the N word), lack of education, teen brides, arranging what amounts to street fighting, abuse, poor sanitation, etc make gypsies and travellers any different than the fundies we snark on? And I'm not even taking about the shows here. Given all of that how can anybody say that culture needs to needs to be preserved? As for AL and rednecks, me included...yes need to give up our ass-backwards ways and move forward to the 21st century.

The things that you point out are horrible. No one would argue with you about that. Some of us though, wonder if what is shown on TLC is accurate.

[bekkah]

My family loves road trips...We've driven quite a bit of the states....I agree with Debrand on Walldrug...one of the best corny places to stop been there several times...I love stopping at big statues and taking photos by them..

[geniebelle6901]

The things that you point out are horrible. No one would argue with you about that. Some of us though, wonder if what is shown on TLC is accurate.

I think this season's British season stepping away from fluff of last season and is focusing on the darker side of the culture is s a sign that they are somewhat acknowledging the issues.

[formergothardite]

But just like there is more to Southern culture than what is shown on TV, there is more to Roma/Travler culture than what is shown. No one is saying that the bad parts should be preserved, we are just saying that there is more to the culture than just the bad parts, it just doesn't make for good tv.

[2xx1xy1JD]

But just like there is more to Southern culture than what is shown on TV, there is more to Roma/Travler culture than what is shown. No one is saying that the bad parts should be preserved, we are just saying that there is more to the culture than just the bad parts, it just doesn't make for good tv.

Ditto.

Also, we can recognize the history of the community, and the insane level of discrimination and persecution that they have faced. Did you know that they were targeted for genocide along with the Jews during the Holocaust?

[ADoyle90815]

Ditto.

Also, we can recognize the history of the community, and the insane level of discrimination and persecution that they have faced. Did you know that they were targeted for genocide along with the Jews during the Holocaust?

This. It's estimated that at least 250,000 Gypsies/Roma/Travelers were murdered in those camps.

[formergothardite]

This. It's estimated that at least 250,000 Gypsies/Roma/Travelers were murdered in those camps.

Knowing that Hitler actually tired to destroy their culture, it is even more horrifying to see someone say that their culture shouldn't be preserved. This is not supporting the bad parts of their culture, it is, again, just saying that there is so much more than what is shown on TV.

[Peas n carrots]

I agree about the Amish. They should not get a pass when it comes to educating their children. Not allowing kids to get educated beyond the eighth grade makes it nearly impossible for them to leave the group.

I think the Amish get a pass because they are "good Christians."

I have done a lot of research on the Amish, and although I admire some aspects of their lifestyle I take major issue with education and patriarchy. The options are so limited, and when kids do try to leave it is extremely hard to adjust to the outside world. How do you go about getting a social security number when you are 18 years old and your family has shunned you? You can see why so few leave.

[Artemis]

Given all of that how can anybody say that culture needs to be preserved?

OK Genie, let's think through your statement logically.

Yes there are issues with their culture. Does that mean that it should not be preserved?

Or does it mean that it is simply a culture that has issues that predispose to abusive practices and outcomes which are undesireable and could be modified without harming the culture?

Actually, quite a lot of cultures predispose to abusive practices and outcomes.

I know a culture where 21% of all children live below the poverty line

I know a culture where over 20% of a large ethnic minority are unemployed

I know a culture where 15% of deaths in young men aged 15 - 24 are homicide and 13% suicide. (33% are car accidents)

In this culture 3 women die every day from domestic violence. More than 600 women a day are raped. 6 million women suffer domestic violence every year, and 25% of women will suffer domestic violence in their lifetime. 1 in every 58 children have been abused - and that's logged cases of abuse, not daily spankings with plumbing line a la Pearl.

And 32 million people in this culture wouldn't be reading this because they are functionally illiterate.

This is your culture, Genie. This is America.

So what will you do about it? Do you want it preserved? Do you want it changed? Do you want it 'not preserved'?

What does 'not preserved' mean in practice?

Would you like to drop a bomb on it? How about a sweeping virus - biological warfare, killing these millions. What about the innocent, who will die with the guilty?

Perhaps you could euthanase those who are 'undesirable'; those who commit the crimes that lead to the deaths and the violence while leaving the innocent others? Who makes the choice? How will you do it? You could round them all up, herd them into ghettoes and let them die of starvation. You could put them in camps, and work and starve them to death. You could sterilise the women and men who are 'unacceptably backward ' in their views. All of these things would prevent their culture - your culture - from being preserved.

Could it be that what you meant was to say about the Roma culture, is that it predisposes to some abusive practices which are harmful - as does your own culture? Not to make the sweeping generalisation - the very same type of sweeping generalisation that has gotten you into trouble here before - that you did?

[geniebelle6901]

My God, I didn't say kill anybody! What I said was the culture shouldn't be preserved, and should have added assimilated into the rest of society just as I wish the Duggar and Bates kids leave their respective compounds and live life on their own terms . I am also aware of criminal statistics in in the U.S., but as a whole we don't condone those those acts, whereas gypsy and traveller culture do. That's the difference. There is no way I can condone any group, culture, or religion that supports and participates in the things I metioned. I include my own Southern culture in that too. Just to repeat: I never said kill anyone.

In keeping with my word, I will flounce from this thread rather than have grow 10+ more pages. I apologize for implying kill gypsies or anyone else.

[donks]

The rerun of the Pat Baby Bullshit's on now.

He makes his money tar-and-gravelling cut rate golf courses down the road a piece from me, in Douglasville, Ga. I am horrified.

The daughter looks like Olive Oil from Popeye. Dad sets off my gaydar, bigtime.

I am embarrased they're from my state.

[MrsKay]

Pat Baby totally has something not-so-straight brewing under the surface. He was almost drooling over that dress. Did anyone notice Priscilla saying that the "eyes are like the nipples of the face"? I always thought it was "windows to the soul"... but then again, I could be wrong...

[Guest Anonymous]

I think this season's British season stepping away from fluff of last season and is focusing on the darker side of the culture is s a sign that they are somewhat acknowledging the issues.

I think the fact that C4 uses the term 'Gypsy' at all to be quite telling about how enlightened the programme makers are.

And the strapline for the new series... "Bigger. Fatter. Gypsier." Woohoo, British intellectualism at its best.

So anyway, what research evidence leads you to your conclusions, Genie? Did you read Sola's link?

[Sola]

THIS! How is female submission, blatant sexism and misogyny, racial slurs like gorger (would anybody here call Voddie Bauchman the N word), lack of education, teen brides, arranging what amounts to street fighting, abuse, poor sanitation, etc make gypsies and travellers any different than the fundies we snark on? And I'm not even taking about the shows here. Given all of that how can anybody say that culture needs to needs to be preserved? As for AL and rednecks, me included...yes need to give up our ass-backwards ways and move forward to the 21st century.

Genie, the Romani word 'Gadje' (not Gorga/Gorger) actually means 'countrymen', more precisely it means 'a man of the countryside who works the fields', in other words a farmer. Just as the English language has evolved, so has Romani and over time Gadje came to mean 'one who lived in one place' (as a farmer would). It is not a racial slur.

There may well be plenty to snark about, but the term Gadje is not one of them.

I have a friend who is Rroma. She is a middle class social worker, married with a couple of kids. She follows the laws of the land and also follows the laws of the Kris. She owns her own home; a little Victorian terrace house not unlike my own. As it is an old house it still has an outside toilet but where as we ripped out our outside toilet and turned it into an outbuilding, she didn't. That way she can keep the rules that you do not defecate inside your home. She takes a shower instead of a bath so that she can follow the rules that you must always bathe in running water. She even has two washing machines so that she can ensure that all dirty clothing is washed according to Marhime law. TLC wouldn't make a show about her because she is too ordinary, too boring. TLC take the extremes, just like they have with the Duggars, and they make it into a freak show.

Of course there is bad in the Rroma culture, but there is bad in EVERY culture. Should we do away with all of them and just have all of us living a life prescribed by certain people who deem what is socially acceptable?

I am also aware of criminal statistics in in the U.S., but as a whole we don't condone those those acts, whereas gypsy and traveller culture do.

How do you know?

I am speaking of Rroma here as I don't have much experience with the Irish traveller culture. But there is nothing in Romani law that permits criminal behaviour. The Kris usually oversees internal disputes and divorce and has the powers to declare someone or something as Marhime (unclean). If a Rroma stole from another Rroma, then the Kris might deal with it. If a Rroma stole from a Gadje then the police would be involved - although the Kris might well become involved too and might invoke their own punishment too such as declaring the thief as Marhime.

[formergothardite]

My God, I didn't say kill anybody! What I said was the culture shouldn't be preserved, and should have added assimilated into the rest of society just as I wish the Duggar and Bates kids leave their respective compounds and live life on their own terms . I am also aware of criminal statistics in in the U.S., but as a whole we don't condone those those acts, whereas gypsy and traveller culture do. That's the difference. There is no way I can condone any group, culture, or religion that supports and participates in the things I metioned. I include my own Southern culture in that too. Just to repeat: I never said kill anyone.

In keeping with my word, I will flounce from this thread rather than have grow 10+ more pages. I apologize for implying kill gypsies or anyone else.

So the Genie who wants everyone to be the same is back? Did you not read anything I wrote? What you see on tv is not all there is to this culture. The culture that you want destroyed just like Hitler did. (yes I'm pulling that.) Sure you don't want them to die, you just want them to lose their heritage and be like everyone else. What next, are you going to say that the Native Americans should just leave the reservations and assimilate into the rest of society? Hey, there are plenty of bad things about their culture too. Probably could make a tv show just showing the bad parts too.

And flouncing when you know your beliefs are horrific and people are going to challenge them shows that you have no intentions of learning and growing. You are the same Genie that was here before. All that has changed is that you are trying to not be as open about the horrid things you beliefs.

[fluttershies]

So the Genie who wants everyone to be the same is back? Did you not read anything I wrote? What you see on tv is not all there is to this culture. The culture that you want destroyed just like Hitler did. (yes I'm pulling that.) Sure you don't want them to die, you just want them to lose their heritage and be like everyone else. What next, are you going to say that the Native Americans should just leave the reservations and assimilate into the rest of society? Hey, there are plenty of bad things about their culture too. Probably could make a tv show just showing the bad parts too.

And flouncing when you know your beliefs are horrific and people are going to challenge them shows that you have no intentions of learning and growing. You are the same Genie that was here before. All that has changed is that you are trying to not be as open about the horrid things you beliefs.

Also geniebelle, considering that it's OK for an American politician to call a young woman a slut because she wants access to birth control, the US absolutely has a rape culture that is not due to minority groups. Just because people don't usually walk around saying how great rape is doesn't mean that the culture of abuse is not there. The lack of consent in Traveller grabbing is not seen to be problematic by that culture, but it is still a problem - just like rape jokes are often seen as not problematic by mainstream American culture, but still are wrong. That doesn't mean that the whole of mainstream American culture should be obliterated, so neither should Roma or Traveller cultures. Why are they inferior to mainstream American culture?

[formergothardite]

Too bad Genie isn't ready to drop the willfully ignorant part of her culture.

[tropaka]

Genie, the Romani word 'Gadje' (not Gorga/Gorger) actually means 'countrymen', more precisely it means 'a man of the countryside who works the fields', in other words a farmer. Just as the English language has evolved, so has Romani and over time Gadje came to mean 'one who lived in one place' (as a farmer would). It is not a racial slur.

There may well be plenty to snark about, but the term Gadje is not one of them.

I have a friend who is Rroma. She is a middle class social worker, married with a couple of kids. She follows the laws of the land and also follows the laws of the Kris. She owns her own home; a little Victorian terrace house not unlike my own. As it is an old house it still has an outside toilet but where as we ripped out our outside toilet and turned it into an outbuilding, she didn't. That way she can keep the rules that you do not defecate inside your home. She takes a shower instead of a bath so that she can follow the rules that you must always bathe in running water. She even has two washing machines so that she can ensure that all dirty clothing is washed according to Marhime law. TLC wouldn't make a show about her because she is too ordinary, too boring. TLC take the extremes, just like they have with the Duggars, and they make it into a freak show.

Of course there is bad in the Rroma culture, but there is bad in EVERY culture. Should we do away with all of them and just have all of us living a life prescribed by certain people who deem what is socially acceptable?

...there is nothing in Romani law that permits criminal behaviour. The Kris usually oversees internal disputes and divorce and has the powers to declare someone or something as Marhime (unclean). If a Rroma stole from another Rroma, then the Kris might deal with it. If a Rroma stole from a Gadje then the police would be involved - although the Kris might well become involved too and might invoke their own punishment too such as declaring the thief as Marhime.

Thanks. This is one of the best descriptions/explanations I've read. From the show you'd think all Romani/Travellers were defecating on lawns, running out on paving contracts, and dressing their kids like strippers.

[Evilbad]

France and Romania both have tried to assimilate the culture, rather unsuccessfully. They tried to get the kids to come to school by offering free breakfasts. THe kids would show up, eat, and then leave. Regardless of what Genie thinks, she can go ahead and try to assimilate them or whatever it is she thinks needs to be done. They will go ahead and preserve their own culture, thank you very much lol.

You see them everywhere here in Europe. We don't see any of the crazy stuff they show on TV. The only thing I don't like is the door to door they make the women do, asking for money. One old woman tried to push her way into my house.

[Sola]

France and Romania both have tried to assimilate the culture, rather unsuccessfully. They tried to get the kids to come to school by offering free breakfasts. THe kids would show up, eat, and then leave. Regardless of what Genie thinks, she can go ahead and try to assimilate them or whatever it is she thinks needs to be done. They will go ahead and preserve their own culture, thank you very much lol.

You see them everywhere here in Europe. We don't see any of the crazy stuff they show on TV. The only thing I don't like is the door to door they make the women do, asking for money. One old woman tried to push her way into my house.

I can't speak about what happened in France but in Romania and many other Eastern European countries, Rroma children have been typically sent to special needs schools regardless of their intellectual capacity. As a result these children would end up growing up illiterate. For a Rroma parent trying to your child into a mainstream school in Eastern Europe has been virtually impossible, as soon as your ethnicity has been known your child would be directed to a special school. Rroma children have ended up with a very poor education and it is no wonder that parents have been reluctant to send their children to a school which was no more than a holding pen.

[formergothardite]

Genie, I don't do private messages on stuff like this. I didn't even read what you sent me. If you have something to say. Say it here. I like to keep all this out in the open.

[tropaka]

A neighbourhood in Toronto has a high population of Roma, but efforts by the Roma Community Centre (run by Roma) and the TDSB to keep the kids in school have gotten a lot of publicity of late. It seems the population is a little more willing to educate their kids, although on the other side of the coin the idea of paying kids to attend school was floated, targeted specifically for Roma kids in this one neighbourhood.

[geniebelle6901]

I'm sorry formergothardite, I thought PM'g a single person would be the best route to go and avoid derailing the actual topic.

Anyway this was the PM I sent:

If I make a mistake, I will graciously apologize and back off

This is what I posted on the "My return to FJ" from the Chatter forum, and I'm keeping my promise. That is all.

And that's exactly what I did I made a mistake, I apologized for it, and backed off. Now I'll go back to lurking in this thread.

[debrand]

A neighbourhood in Toronto has a high population of Roma, but efforts by the Roma Community Centre (run by Roma) and the TDSB to keep the kids in school have gotten a lot of publicity of late. It seems the population is a little more willing to educate their kids, although on the other side of the coin the idea of paying kids to attend school was floated, targeted specifically for Roma kids in this one neighbourhood.[/

Couldn't the parents get in legal trouble for not at least, homeschooling their children?