My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding

[BlondeAgent007]

the guy who made the arrangements was so shady too. he didn't tell us he had 300 guests until a day before. and when we didn't have enough tables he blamed us for not having the space for his party (it was 35 extra dinners we had to make) our space was for 300, so we had to go out of our way to accomadate them, which cost me a ton of money

[ElphabaGalinda]

Even if someone didn't want to read any "pro roma" links, I think anyone should know that TLC doesn't accurately portray any culture, especially if they've ever seen the Duggars.

[MaroonMandy]

I've never seen it used. Most unusual.

I've only seen it used while researching historical documents while working on my Master's, but never in a modern sense. I'm guessing it's not a regional thing, so maybe since the culture is a bit "old school" in some of their views (women staying home, marrying young, men rule the home, etc) this is just a nod to that?

[Guest Anonymous]

I wonder why it's so damned important to geniebelle for her to find some ethnic/cultural/other group that it's "okay" for her to hate and despise? I'm leaning towards her having a desperate need to consider herself better than other people.

She pitched fits about welfare queens and now she sees the possibility of needing to use it herself so she lost that one. I guess because she's white and speaks English as a first language she can look down on immigrants and people with non-approved (by her) accents. Because she lives in a fixed location she can mock Travelers. Maybe if she ever had to live in an RV and people treated her like a bad person because of it, she would get over this new bigotry of hers - but I'm sure she would immediately latch on to a new one. It seems to be far more important to her to be better than others than it is for her to be a decent human being.

And in the words of a Canadian punk rock band: "Just what exactly are the great historical accomplishments of your race that make you proud to be white? Capitalism? Slavery? Genocide? Sitcoms? This is your fucking white history, my friend."

Justify the existence of your entire culture, if you can.

**Edited to add/clarify a thought.

[donks]

I've only seen it used while researching historical documents while working on my Master's, but never in a modern sense. I'm guessing it's not a regional thing, so maybe since the culture is a bit "old school" in some of their views (women staying home, marrying young, men rule the home, etc) this is just a nod to that?

That would be my guess, too.

[valsa]

You soon went back to being an aggravating little fuck, didn't you? :roll:

Okay, I wasn't the first to call it but I still did, so- called it! When I get a free moment, maybe I'll count how many days it took for the old Geniebelle to make an appearance.

Also, Geniebelle, I read a lot of black empowerment blogs. They're very good for discussing the massive, often-widespread social problems in the "black community". I think it's completely appropriate to compare your feelings about the Roma to a racist's feelings about black people. Why is it okay for you to say "There's nothing good about Roma culture, except maybe their food and music, so they should just assimilate [to the defacto white, middle-class culture]" but not okay for someone else to say "There's nothing good about black culture, except maybe their food and music, so they should just assimilate [to the defacto white, middle-class culture]"? Or do you think that would be okay too?

[formergothardite]

I said no pro gypsy or traveller links. I take it you have no suggestions as to how to fix their problems?

So pretty much nothing that showed them anything but the evil demons you believe them to be will suit you?

I think they should be required to educate their children. I know there was some bitching on this thread about them not paying enough taxes so they shouldn't be allowed to go to school, well why not set up sites for them to camp at and then tax them when they register to camp? Have all the paperwork at the camp site to get their children signed up for school. But the problem with this is that they are so discriminated against that people don't want them around. They don't want them in their school system or camping near their home. So the place to start is to end the discrimination, not wipe their culture from the earth which just encourages discrimination.

Here is a link (probably not bashing them enough for your approval) that talks about the discrimination and persecution(and not the fundie I had to hear Happy Holiday's persecution) they have and still do face:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/roma4.htm

There are about 5,000 Roma survivors of the Nazi concentration camps who are still living. Because of continuing discrimination, they did not share in any of the hundreds of millions of dollars given to other survivors of the Holocaust

"The Roma community suffers massive discrimination in access to housing, employment and education. In some countries they are prevented from obtaining citizenship and personal documents required for social insurance, health care and other benefits. Roma are often victims of police ill-treatment and their complaints are seldom investigated. Frequently Romani children are unjustifiably placed in 'special' schools where curtailed curricula limit their possibilities for fulfilling their potential. Romani children and women are among the communities most vulnerable to traffickers."

A poll of ethnic Bulgarian adults shows that discrimination and bigotry is intense and widespread: 94% said they would not marry a Roma*;

91% believe that the Roma are predisposed to criminal behavior;

83% that the are "lazy and irresponsible."

69% would not have a Roma as a friend*.

59% would not live in the same locale as the Roma;

*These two values have increased by about 5 percentage points since 1992.

[formergothardite]

i have had a bad run in with gypsies, in WNY! They screwed over my place of business BIG TIME

in 2009/10 they scheduled a new years party at my place of employment. i was a banquet server. They originally asked for a party of 250 until 2 am.

What we were forced to deal with was a rowdy party of over 300. They charged each person $60 for the event, even though it was only 32.75 a person from our calculations including the full time band. Their party of 250 was a party of 335, which bc they didn't tell us an accurate head count didn't get enough food. it threw the kitchen into a tailspin.

also they only paid the bar to be open until 1 am. they let the bar close, and then went to their hotel rooms and brought out 5 30 packs of keystone and 5 bottles of liquor. we told them NO LIQUOR bought not by the hotel after hours, unless they are in their hotel rooms, then they can do what they please. they iqnored us. and i didn't get home until 5:15, when i was told i'd be done by 2. they barely tipped us btw.

shady--yes. personal experience--yes

At my husband's job he has had numerous bad run-ins with AA clients, Hispanic clients, and white clients. That must mean that all the people in those groups are shady, lying, stealing thiefs doesn't it? :roll:

[formergothardite]

Okay, I wasn't the first to call it but I still did, so- called it! When I get a free moment, maybe I'll count how many days it took for the old Geniebelle to make an appearance.

Also, Geniebelle, I read a lot of black empowerment blogs. They're very good for discussing the massive, often-widespread social problems in the "black community". I think it's completely appropriate to compare your feelings about the Roma to a racist's feelings about black people. Why is it okay for you to say "There's nothing good about Roma culture, except maybe their food and music, so they should just assimilate [to the defacto white, middle-class culture]" but not okay for someone else to say "There's nothing good about black culture, except maybe their food and music, so they should just assimilate [to the defacto white, middle-class culture]"? Or do you think that would be okay too?

I looked up what you wrote on her "I'm back and going to be a better person" thread:

If I cared more I'd be counting down the days until your next attention whore/offensive outburst. As it is, I'll just make a prediction for how it will go down- 1) you'll say something offensive, 2) people will call you out on it, 3) you'll try to defend your indefensible offensive remark, 4) people don't buy your bullshit, 5) you'll snap and go on a profanity-laced tirade, 6) people will make fun of you, and 7) finally you'll apologize and/or blame it on some outside influence and/or say you're turning over yet another new leaf.

We are on #4 because (and I suspect this is because her church members are lurking) she hasn't started cussing yet.

[Eclipse]

I've never seen it used. Most unusual.

Ever read the Secret Garden or watched a movie version? Collin is called Master Collin and its because he is a preteen, unmarried male. My great-aunts address all their cards to my male cousins when they are young as "Master" as it was the correct title to give them. Maybe its something that was lost earlier in the US and lasted longer in the UK and some Commonwealth countries?

[No Fun My Babe]

I've known some Rom over the years, and in those days gypsy was a slur akin to the N word. At that time the Rom never used that word to describe themselves. I think now a days some do. I've also had a lover for many years who is half Rom (Mothers side). So I've learned a bit about the people from him as well. Travellers here in the US are called Travelers although citizens will call them 'G'.

It's late but i'll share one of my Rom experiences. 1987 the girl is 2 and we take her to Disneyland for her first visit. We're hippies mind you, and perhaps look like Rom a bit :D It's the end of our day and we get on the river boat ride. Sit next to a couple dressed a lot like we were. We smile and nod, the kid is cute but tired, on the edge of what could be a meltdown. The woman and man say something to us in a language that I know is Rom. I explained that we're a different tribe, Hippies. They laugh like hell, and the child commences with her meltdown. I pull her on my lap to calm her and she becomes fascinated with the woman's earrings. The woman is loving this kid, the baby fusses a bit more and refocusses on the woman's earrings. The woman takes them off and hands them to me and says they are for the shey (nonRom girl). I remove my daughters earrings and insert the ones the woman gave her and you would think I handed the lady a sack of hundred dollar bills. She was glowing. Then she said, 'from my tribe to yours'.

I've got more Rom stories, but we would need to sit down to a couple of pints in order for me to properly tell them.

I just wanted to thank you for posting that lovely anecdote. I really enjoyed reading it.

There are about 5,000 Roma survivors of the Nazi concentration camps who are still living. Because of continuing discrimination, they did not share in any of the hundreds of millions of dollars given to other survivors of the Holocaust

That is so fucked up. They suffered too, and horribly. Thanks for the link.

It's a cycle. It's hard to gain any kind of footing, while still preserving your culture, when you're endlessly discriminated against and don't have the opportunity to do so.

[dawbs]

Ever read the Secret Garden or watched a movie version? Collin is called Master Collin and its because he is a preteen, unmarried male. My great-aunts address all their cards to my male cousins when they are young as "Master" as it was the correct title to give them. Maybe its something that was lost earlier in the US and lasted longer in the UK and some Commonwealth countries?

I've only ever seen it used on the other side of the pond...

possibly because of the connotations with slavery of the word 'master' in the US?

[Witsec7]

You and your stories that show the good side of the Rom culture, experiencedd! Don't you know that they are all a bunch of scam artists and thiefs!

Genie's reaction reminds me of many of the racist(who claim they are not) in my area who say the exact same things about AA. They claim that they are nothing but thieves and the women don't do anything but have baby after baby and their children are all ignorant and they should just drop their culture and become more like the white people. What do you think Genie? Since there is so much bad in the AA culture, should it be destroyed and they be forced to assimilate? If not, what is the difference between them and the Roma?

And honestly, I don't see traveling around as a bad part of their culture.

My people were 'othered' FG. They were immigrants in a town of white protestants. Although the immigrants were the majority the 'othering' was a function of the dominant culture. Assimilation for my parents included becoming racist anti semites, who later scorned those immigrants who came after them. Thats the negative part of their culture I left behind. Certainly by genie's standards all the immigrants I grew up with were drunken, smelly, illiterates who beat their wives :roll: But since we were Polish we all should have all been excellent bowlers :lol:

All who wander are not lost.

[Eclipse]

I've only ever seen it used on the other side of the pond...

possibly because of the connotations with slavery of the word 'master' in the US?

That is my guess why its not used in the US. My great aunts that I referred to were born and raised in Canada. I still see it used now and then in Canada when people address things to boys in the mail. Its usually by people over 50, whose families have been living in Canada since the 19th century or earlier, and are English descent.

[RR88]

What experiencedd said.

I know somebody who was murdered. She was Scottish and killed by a Scot, who is now doing life in prison for it. I guess according to your logic that makes Scotland a culture of murderers.

Nope! No true Scotsman would ever commit murder. ;)

[Letgo]

My understanding of the term Master is that it applies to boys under 18. When they turn 18 they become Mister. (Or the age may have been 21 because this was from 40-some years ago.) Girls are always Miss until marriage. It was before Ms. came into use for women. I remember this from reading some article or book on manners that explained how to address a letter to various people; doctors' wives, widows, children, divorced women, etc. I think US society is now too relaxed to pay much attention to proper terms. And how many of us write letters?

What is the meaning of adding "baby" to the names of men in that family? I thought Pat Baby was bad enough, but in the obit there were other men with baby after their names. Is is for a junior? A term of endearment? And I noticed the sister who was killed had a job as a cashier. Was her husband non-Roma? I thought women were not allowed to work.

[Eclipse]

My best friend's brother is a Roma and he was adopted from Europe. Having Roma stay in one place in many places in Europe hasn't solved many of the problems that they are criticized for, such as poor school attendance. The family that gave him up lived in one place for many years and they still were not educated, suffered from extreme poverty and were very patriarchal. There are some things in their culture that will probably change over the next generation or so to allow the Travellers and Roma survive in the modern world. It will be harder and harder for the men to go out and support their families doing manual work with little education. Eventually they will have to stay in school longer to gain more skills or to get their papers in a trade. I hope that the patriarchal and sexist nature of their culture changes and that change can only occur from within for a change to be meaningful.

I worked with several Gypsy families one summer at a non-profit organization where I ran a summer camp for underprivileged kids. The children were well behaved and courtesy. Their parents were nice to their children's counsellors. They told me to call them Gypsies because that was what they called themselves, so I will use their term for themselves. When their children's week finished, the Gypsy women gave me flowers and a bracelet one of them had made as a thank you for the positive influence I was on their children and what we did with them at the camp. They were sweet people. I have also had bad experiences with Roma when one woman stole my mother's purse when we were in Belgium.

Traveller, Roma andGypsies are like any other group of people. Some of them are good, honest people, while others are not. They are like any group of people. However, when some of them behave dishonestly, or commit crimes its because they are gypsies. When you characterize someone's criminal or dishonest behaviour as an aspect of their cultural identity, you are extending that negative action or trait to everyone in that group. That is not right. Its racism. Its wrong to do that to any other group and its wrong to do it them.

[ladypuglover]

I've been talking with experiencedd about my lack of knowing and understanding of the Roma people. All I know of the Roma is what I have seen on TV and from 2 books. I know nothing about these people and it is really helping me with what everyone is saying. Please keep it coming as I really do want to learn and stop having preconcived ideas of people.

[Triplet3]

My great-aunts address all their cards to my male cousins when they are young as "Master" as it was the correct title to give them. Maybe its something that was lost earlier in the US and lasted longer in the UK and some Commonwealth countries?

When my siblings and I were children (early-late 20s now) our Nana used to address birthday cards etc. to my brothers as 'Master ______' I don't know how old my brothers were when she started addressing them as Mr, however. Probably by the time they were 16 or so, and most likely earlier. We're in the UK too.

[donks]

Ever read the Secret Garden or watched a movie version? Collin is called Master Collin and its because he is a preteen, unmarried male. My great-aunts address all their cards to my male cousins when they are young as "Master" as it was the correct title to give them. Maybe its something that was lost earlier in the US and lasted longer in the UK and some Commonwealth countries?

No, I've never read or saw it. I've seen it listed from time to time, I'll check it out.

[Sola]

I looked up what you wrote on her "I'm back and going to be a better person" thread:

If I cared more I'd be counting down the days until your next attention whore/offensive outburst. As it is, I'll just make a prediction for how it will go down- 1) you'll say something offensive, 2) people will call you out on it, 3) you'll try to defend your indefensible offensive remark, 4) people don't buy your bullshit, 5) you'll snap and go on a profanity-laced tirade, 6) people will make fun of you, and 7) finally you'll apologize and/or blame it on some outside influence and/or say you're turning over yet another new leaf.

We are on #4 because (and I suspect this is because her church members are lurking) she hasn't started cussing yet.

^This.

Stop and think about what you are saying Genie.

Honestly, I think it is so ingrained into Genie that she cannot even see that she is being a fuckwit now. I'm wondering if this is one of the first times she has been challenged on her views. Must be comforting to live in that bubble of hers...

[tabitha2]

In To kill a Mocking bird,The maid Calpurnia starts referring the Jem Finch as Mister at a certain age.I believe Master went out of fashion early in the US mister replaced it for a long time as a formal title.

[fakepigtails73]

I've only ever seen it used on the other side of the pond...

possibly because of the connotations with slavery of the word 'master' in the US?

I think that the latest I saw "Master" was in 1912, on the Titanic's passenger list. A minor male child was "Master First Last name." I found it a bit odd.

[tropaka]

I was always taught when addressing a letter to a young boy to use "Master" - in Ontario, Canada. Never had the occasion to use it, however.

Re Travellers/Roma - as for any group, you always hear of the negative stereotypes within any group - and TLC is finding them and showcasing them. I guess it would be like portraying all southerners as racist red necks or drunken Irish etc....

[JesusFightClub]

Nope! No true Scotsman would ever commit murder. ;)

LOL!

Bizarrely, my grandad thinks it was "a black immigrant" who did for her. She wasn't white, but he was from the same background as mine, Irish Protestant.

We've shown him pics but he's still struggling with the concept!