Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[formergothardite]

All it took for me was being told you need to accept Jesus into your heart to get into heaven. Because growing up in a Jewish family I was taught that that's not what our family believed. And formergothardite probably wants to know to explain to you how no matter how you phrase it, it can sound terrifying to children raised with other beliefs (or no beliefs at all) to be told they have to believe in a certain thing to get into heaven.

Exactly. I don't think Christians want to talk about how what they think sound sweet and innocent can actually be really scary for a child.

[Guest Anonymous]

Every year I partner with Operation Christmas Child and Samaritan's Purse. I know they present the gospel when they hand out their gifts.

. My understanding of the OCC approach (this info is from an employee of Samaritan's Purse who has attended/worked at at many of the actual box distributions) is that they put the booklet/tract (that doesn't mention going to hell) in the box and local churches (if there are any in the area) can invite kids to their services. That's as far as the preaching goes.

Hmm... so according to the OCC website, actually they give the gift with a long booklet containing a "sinner's prayer" and invite the child to a 12-week programme which discusses hell and eternal separation from God in detail. The course is written by Samaritan's Purse and funded in part by the £4.7million generated from shoebox cash donations.

So... did OCC lie to the pastor or is the pastor lying to us? And who among them is then qualified to preach the truth to vulnerable children?

[AnnieC 305]

TL:DR

I also suggest Toys for Tots

http://www.toysfortots.org/

I believe they have pick-up bins in every ToysRUs as well.

[Guest Anonymous]

if I were to talk to children about the gospel, I'd present it in a non-threatening way. I'd never tell a child horrific, gory detail about Jesus' crucifixion, nor would I tell them they're a black-hearted sinner dangling above the pits of a fiery hell. That's not the way the gospel was presented to me and not the way I'd present it to anyone else.

But you support OCC who use this material for shoebox recipients: (p 14 of The Greatest Journey)

[valsa]

I'd also like to know where Jesus said it was okay to preach to children.

I can think of Jesus relating to children in two instances. One was where he used a child as an example to his disciples of how they should be (note, he's talking to his disciples, not the child) and the other was where children wanted to come to him and the other adults wouldn't let them, and Jesus rebuked the adults for it (again, it should be noted that the children wanted to come to Jesus, he did not seek them out)

[formergothardite]

Lucky, I am willing to dial down my inner snarky bitch and nicely discuss if and how your presentation of the gospel to children can be scary. But you also have to be open to discussing if it can be scary to children. Maybe you do have some non scary way to tell children they need Jesus to go to heaven, maybe it is scarier than you think. Are you open to that sort of discussion?

[Mama Mia]

I work in an agency that serves low-income families. At Christmas most of the kids in the families get signed up for help from a variety of agencies.

By far the best way to help out a family is to give gifts that the kids ( including the teens !) will actually like and use and to give them to the parents to give to the children. Let the parents or Santa get the credit. Don't assist on preaching, don't assist on delivering it yourself, don't insist on photo ops with the poor grateful children. If you have a group purchasing for various members of a family don't have the boss spend $500 on one kid, while the cashier spends $20 on their sibling ... even it out. If you sign up to purchase kids for a specific kid, don't back out - regardless of what comes up -- because you will have one kid in a family who is getting nothing while everyone else gets a gift. Unless there are legitimate concerns with how the money will be used, get gift certificates that the older kids can use themselves, or parents can use to purchase for younger kids. If for some reason the giver/group wants to include information on religion, limit it to a child's version of the Christmas Story, if the gifts are specifically for Christmas.

If it's a party situation where each kid gets a gift from Santa or whoever and everyone is around to watch .. that can be great, but in general make it anonymous and let the family get to share the moment.

And don't forget that kids need stuff the entire rest of the year, not just this one time.

Also, don't treat the staff at the agencies helping the families like their only job is to coordinate gift giving, because it's not. The holidays are horribly stressful for social service workers - families relapse more often, bad memories are brought up, people try to over-compensate for not having anything and spend all their money and the whole season is constant crisis management. So give them a break.

End of rant.

[JesusFightClub]

Imagine for a moment that the shoe is on the other foot.

Say you're the head of a poor family with a bunch of kids, and you're already feeling bad about the fact that you can't provide new clothes or gifts to your kids. It can really hit the self-esteem, you know? You see your kids every day wanting what the richer kids have but you just can't provide it.

And then into that situation, a group of people come to town and say they're going to hold a party. There will be free gifts. Any kid can come, just put in your kids name. So you do.

And your kids go to the party, and it turns out that it's all about Muslim proselytizing. Yeah, they get the gifts with no strings, but they're told that their lifestyle isn't really quite proper, Jesus is just a prophet like many others, and that their mom should cover her hair, or whatever it is. Their own culture just isn't quite good enough. And maybe they come home and share that message with you. Maybe if you were the "right" sort of person, things would be better. And you feel your kids moving away from you - just a bit, but it's there. And again, the guilt of not being able to avoid the whole thing by buying them gifts yourself.

Targeting kids for proselytizing by giving out presents or a party is low. Teaching people that their cultures are wrong, at a party, is just not okay.

If you want to share your religion, it needs to be on the up and up and made clear that that's what will be happening, to ADULTS, so it can be truly voluntary. If you want to do charity and give gifts, to be true charity it needs to be on those kids' terms. If some one of them wants to talk about Jesus, fine, but you can't go pushing it on non-Christian kids. Charitable giving is about giving what the recipient needs, on the recipient's terms, without thinking about the benefits in it for you (for your organization, or you getting to "do your required duty" of sharing the Gospel, or whatever it is).

And yeah, I know the counter-argument is "but what everyone really needs is the Gospel" but hordes of people don't believe in that, they don't want their kids being taught such things, and so it's underhanded to preach to kids without making it clear to their parents what they're in for. If you're consistently there for someone, without preaching, and eventually they ask about your world outlook, what makes you so generous, or whatever, and you share, then that's different, at least in my book.

There is no way to say that better so I won't even try. Thanks, GVC. :(

I opposed this in my workplace and will continue to do so. It's not kind and it's not right. We had the shoebox drive at work, and while giving a shoebox filled with presents is a gesture of friendship, when you learn a tract is slipped in, it becomes the opposite.

We don't put the tracts in. They do. And people don't know. They actually just think "Oh, I'm buying nice things for kids who don't have them. I really want to do that." This is a lovely sentiment, but when someone pours a heaping dose of Christian propaganda over your efforts, you're actually dividing communities, not helping.

[Guest Anonymous]

if I were to talk to children about the gospel, I'd present it in a non-threatening way. I'd never tell a child horrific, gory detail about Jesus' crucifixion, nor would I tell them they're a black-hearted sinner dangling above the pits of a fiery hell. That's not the way the gospel was presented to me and not the way I'd present it to anyone else.

This is more material used by OCC to scare children. Supported by you. Did you know this?

OCC supporters had better go tie a millstone round their necks and jump in the river, if Jesus really is alive. :(

edit to add a bit.

[emmiedahl]

Sisi, I definitely get what you're saying. And I forget who originally posted at this point, but I can see how that'd be a difficult position to find yourself in.

I think most Christians feel it's their ... hmm... mandate (for lack of a better term) to share the gospel message. If Christians believe their Bible, Jesus said for his followers to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all. So should they not share the gospel when giving gifts to the needy, because it will be seen as conditional? Like, sort of sending an, "I'll give you a gift if you listen to my spiel on Jesus," message? I think there are a startling number of Christians who are proselytizing because it's just a 'job' they have to do in order to get people 'converted'. Just something to check off their to-do list. But they miss the fact that they're dealing with human beings who deserve justice, love and compassion.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain (probably not doing a great job and coming off terribly ramble-y) why I think the way I do about this particular matter.

Then give your own toys, that you buy with your church's money. Don't dupe people into donating when they are just donating a chance for your church to share its views with young and naive children who are too innocent to know bullshit when they smell it.

I used to help run an Adopt-a-Family program for a Catholic social service and Jesus was not even mentioned. Those were gifts from people in the community, not from the Catholic Church. We merely served as the middle men.

[emmiedahl]

Why would you want me to do that? I'm pretty sure it's not because you're curious about the gospel, I think you want to tear apart any answer I'm going to give to you.

Jukebox, I am curious about this as well. Whenever people try to explain Christianity to my Jewish children, it ends up with Hell-talk in about three sentences. It goes somewhat like this:

Preacher: "Jesus died for you!"

My kids: "...why?"

Preacher: "To save you from the consequences of your sins!"

My kids: "Why would someone else need to die for my sins?"

And then hell comes into it. Hell *always* comes into it. Always. Because your religion is jackshit useless without the threat of Hell. Jesus makes no sense without Hell and a God who makes people imperfect on purpose, so that he can throw them into Hell. That is very scary to little Jewish kids, to any child who raised in a religion in which God loves them and thinks they are just fine. I bet it scares Christian children as well.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

There is no way to say that better so I won't even try. Thanks, GVC. :(

Thanks. I remember this same topic came up about giving kids school supplies in Mexico (by some friend of the Maxwells, IIRC) and I felt the same way then too...

By far the best way to help out a family is to give gifts that the kids ( including the teens !) will actually like and use and to give them to the parents to give to the children. Let the parents or Santa get the credit. Don't assist on preaching, don't assist on delivering it yourself, don't insist on photo ops with the poor grateful children.

Extremely extremely agreed. Probably the best gift right there to the PARENT too is letting that parent have the satisfaction of playing the giver role to their own kids on the day that they're expected to do so, to be a normal parent who can give their kids Xmas gifts (or whatever event this is for). Let Dad or Mom get to be the hero.

[formergothardite]

It would be so awesome if all those boxes went to the parents then they could get to have the joy of giving it to their children and not have Samaritans Purse get that joy. Then parents could decide if they wanted to take gospel info to give their kids.

[emmiedahl]

Thanks. I remember this same topic came up about giving kids school supplies in Mexico (by some friend of the Maxwells, IIRC) and I felt the same way then too...

Extremely extremely agreed. Probably the best gift right there to the PARENT too is letting that parent have the satisfaction of playing the giver role to their own kids on the day that they're expected to do so, to be a normal parent who can give their kids Xmas gifts (or whatever event this is for). Let Dad or Mom get to be the hero.

Our Adopt-A-Family program gave the gifts to the parents unwrapped so they could decide who they come from, and also know what the children received. Most of the parents did buy some toys for their kids or had relatives who did, and they needed to know what gaps to fill in.

My family has been in Toys-for-Tots in the past and they specifically ask that children not come to pick-up because they don't want the kids to know that the toys came from them. TFT also includes a paper with a list of local food banks and other resources, which is what churches could do if they had to take some credit. Despite this, I know a parent who wrapped the toys and tagged them "The US Marines."

That is how you give to a family when your motive is helping children and not using their poverty as an excuse to criticize their religious beliefs.

[lilith]

I had one Christmas where a charity helped me provide presents for my children.

Although the toy drive was run by a coalition of churches, they managed to give toys to secular children and children of other religions without giving offense.

All the toys were put in a big room, separated by age group, gender appropriateness and relative value. When I was referred I was given vouchers to allow me to choose a certain number of toys per child from each value group. That way I (the person who knew them best) got to choose toys that they would genuinely appreciate.

When I was leaving i was given a present for myself, told to help myself to as many children's books as i wanted (a publisher must have donated, they were brand new and the pile I took was one of the best parts of Christmas for my daughter that year) and asked if I would like a bible for myself, a children's bible for my kids, or a copy of the Christmas Story. I accepted a children's copy of the Christmas Story because I think it is important for kids to understand the myths that inform our society.

The the lovely lady volunteer gave me a pile of gift wrap and a gift card to the local supermarket and wished me a merry Christmas. She managed to help me, help my children, offer us her religious message and be a lovely human being without belittling or disregarding my lifestyle or choices for my family and without making me feel worse than I already did about not being able to independently provide christmas for my kids.

Every year since, each of my kids has picked out a gift each to give to that charity (which, as I mentioned, is run by a combined churches group) and I pick a present for a parent, cause I remember how nice it was to have someone think of me when I was so stressed and focused on trying to make Christmas for my kids as a single mother with no money. The lady who collected them one year said it's quite common for people who were recipients to eventually become donors. I bet that wouldn't happen if the gifts were delivered with a big pile of religious guilt - I know I wouldn't have become am yearly donor if that was the case.

[PennySycamore]

My kids' schools take part in one of these drives (Samaritan's Purse I think). Of course all the kids want to take part and put a shoebox together, they keep it pretty quiet that they stick evangelical tracts in with the presents. I found a video online via one of the fundy blogs about the organisation with one of the recpients, now grown up, testifying tearfully how the gifts / tract had bought her to Christ etc etc.

Put my foot down that year, told my kids that we'd be donating to a neutral organisation instead, fortunately they were both OK with it.

I wouldn't mind if the tracts were going to Christian families with the parents' OK but the way it was being run seemed pretty manipulative and underhand to me.

You're kids' school better not be a public school! It is extremely inappropriate for them to work with Samaritan's Purse.

[PennySycamore]

You know, it just blows my mind. It is not your cup of tea to sit hear and hear how lousy a person you are, but it is your cup of tea to go tell children that they are lousy and need Christ to go to heaven. Sure you will sugar coat the lousy part of it, but you can't really tell the gospel story without telling children they are sinners.

:clap: :clap: :clap: This x 1000.

[emmiedahl]

All the toys were put in a big room, separated by age group, gender appropriateness and relative value. When I was referred I was given vouchers to allow me to choose a certain number of toys per child from each value group. That way I (the person who knew them best) got to choose toys that they would genuinely appreciate.

That is a great way of running a program!

Toys for Tots is an awesome program and we loved the stuff we got, but you just get a bag of stuff for the child's general age and gender. So a little girl will get a doll, a few books, and some pretty mittens. Or something like that. I wonder how it works with older children, who have specific wishes. Also, I think their age cut-off is 11 or 12. Older kids like presents too.

I have nothing but respect for people who run these programs. Dealing with the donors is a very speshul experience. When I ran Adopt-A-Family, we invariably had phone calls from donors who did not like the child's wishlist. "They want DS games? How poor can they be if they have a DS?!?!?" Or the parents (because we included the entire household) would ask for Walmart gift cards so they can buy laundry soap and tampons, and someone would always call me saying "I'm not buying a gift card so they can spend it on heroin!" Mind you we kept the families *and* their wish lists in a binder that people chose from, so they had chosen that family out of hundreds and then later decided to complain.

But there were also lovely stories, like a group of teachers who called and asked if they could refer a family to our program and simultaneously adopt them anonymously. There was a large family at the school whose parents had both lost their jobs and the children were wearing increasingly shabby clothing and lacking school supplies. They did not want to embarrass the family by offering help themselves. Every teacher at the school participated and the kids got new wardrobes and backpacks full of school supplies and toys. The mother started crying when she picked up the haul. Of course the teachers knew the kids quite well so everything was exactly what the children wanted. I miss working for a charity because stories like this made me realize how wonderful people can be.

[pomology]

It also kind of sounds like there's an underlying implication that all Christians never do anything nice just for the sake of being nice.

Christians underscore that implication when they have to proselytize every time they do something nice. Do something nice for the sake of being nice.

Also, I'm totally not sober right now so I'm not thinking clearly enough to right a rant, but I read this thread earlier when I was sober and SERIOUSLY preaching at kids (or just giving them a fucking tract) just so they can feel like every other damn kid in the country for the holidays is fucked up.

[mockingbird]

Our church used to do a gift tree. I think we still have it, but not as big. From my understanding, it was similar to what _lillith described, but people who donated wrapped the presents with a gender/age group so you didn't know what you were getting. That's the only part I would improve, so that parents would better be able to pick things their kids would like. They accepted donations for any age so parents could get gifts too, and I think they tried to focus on making this available to the poor elderly as well who might not have people to think of them on Christmas. As far as I know, it was run by our partnership with a Catholic charity downtown but was open to anyone and they didn't try to slip a religious message in... the gifts were pre-wrapped by whoever donated them anyway so there was no way for them to add a tract or something. (This was awhile ago so not 100% on the details - it was a huge program when I was in elementary/middle school, and I used to love wrapping my family's donations.) Then again, (mainstream) Catholics generally believe in witnessing/proselytizing by setting a good example, rather than openly trying to convert others. The theory is that if people notice your Christian actions/etc. and are open to converting they will ask you about it. If not, it's still important to be kind to others. ETA: At least in everyday life, I know there have been/are Catholic missionaries.

I have also done adopt-a-family type things through various organizations. I never thought about reading up on the sponsoring organization but I definitely will after reading this thread. I think the ones I have donated to have mostly been through local shelters.

[lilith]

That is a great way of running a program!

Toys for Tots is an awesome program and we loved the stuff we got, but you just get a bag of stuff for the child's general age and gender. So a little girl will get a doll, a few books, and some pretty mittens. Or something like that. I wonder how it works with older children, who have specific wishes. Also, I think their age cut-off is 11 or 12. Older kids like presents too.

I have nothing but respect for people who run these programs. Dealing with the donors is a very speshul experience. When I ran Adopt-A-Family, we invariably had phone calls from donors who did not like the child's wishlist. "They want DS games? How poor can they be if they have a DS?!?!?" Or the parents (because we included the entire household) would ask for Walmart gift cards so they can buy laundry soap and tampons, and someone would always call me saying "I'm not buying a gift card so they can spend it on heroin!" Mind you we kept the families *and* their wish lists in a binder that people chose from, so they had chosen that family out of hundreds and then later decided to complain.

But there were also lovely stories, like a group of teachers who called and asked if they could refer a family to our program and simultaneously adopt them anonymously. There was a large family at the school whose parents had both lost their jobs and the children were wearing increasingly shabby clothing and lacking school supplies. They did not want to embarrass the family by offering help themselves. Every teacher at the school participated and the kids got new wardrobes and backpacks full of school supplies and toys. The mother started crying when she picked up the haul. Of course the teachers knew the kids quite well so everything was exactly what the children wanted. I miss working for a charity because stories like this made me realize how wonderful people can be.

Yeah, cause single mums always stock up on their heroin at the Walmart post Christmas sales......

Those sort of attitudes are the reason people are ashamed to ask for help. I had to be talked into signing up for the Christmas gift program by my social worker, because even though I was struggling to house and feed my children with my then husband actively trying to make things hard for me, so I couldn't get benefits even though he wasn't paying me any child support, I didn't think those programs were for "people like me". Because of those fucked up stereotypes and prejudices.

Thats part of why I try to be open about having accepted welfare and charity in the past - to show that there is no "that kind" of person. I was a university educated married stay at home mother. My husband was (still is, but no longer my husband) a barrister. Due to domestic violence and bad choices I ended up a single mother who couldn't afford to give her kids Christmas one year. The kindness of strangers allowed my children to have Christmas that year, and my countries welfare safety net provided funds to keep us fed and housed until my older two children started school and it was possible for me to work again (daycare for three was never going to make financial sense). I am now repartnered and financially stable. But if that safety net hadn't been there my children and i would not have made it to this point happily and healthily.

All sorts of people need the safety net for all sorts of reasons. The fact that a minority abuse the system does not take away from the fact that it is a literal lifesaver for many many more.

And about the hypothetical heroin addict in emmie's anecdote? Her kids deserve Christmas too.

[Arete]

JukeBoxLucky, you are a Christian and you say the most important thing is sharing the Gospel. Well, I am a Christian also, and I was taught the most important thing as a Christian was trying as best you could to behave a Jesus did on earth. Those passages about him speaking of doing "for the least of my brothers and sisters, you do for me" or "when you give, don't let your right hand know what your left is doing", sort of had more weight than go out and share the good news.

This business of gospel tracts or having to go to church so your child won't be bereft of a toy on Christmas is just sick. I don't care if the gospel tract is a lot tamer than a Chick tract, it's wrong. Our church is such a disorganized hodge-podge that we actually partner with Toys for Tots to be able to make some difference during Christmas. That and because there is no way we would knowingly help evangelicals or Protestants proselytize. No tracts, no icons-whoever gets our gifts would never know where they came from. That is how it should be. We are supposed to give because that is what love is, not to add to the fold. Just think about it. You may have done it on autopilot in the past, but just think about what people here have said.

[Mela99]

When you start adding strings to donations and helping it ceases to be giving and becomes a business of selling christ for a handout. So I am sure god knows the difference between giving from the heart and selling a service.

This.

I can't believe people would do that. When I was little (and we were suffering financially) we got our toys and food from a church... but they never said jack about Jesus. Just smiled, gave us cookies, and told us to enjoy the holidays.

Also, I'm confused at the concept of giving Christmas presents to non-Christians. Why would they sign up for programs like this to get gifts? Or am I wrong about how they come to be involved?

[valsa]

Also, I'm confused at the concept of giving Christmas presents to non-Christians. Why would they sign up for programs like this to get gifts?

Some non-Christians celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.

[ElphabaGalinda]

This.

I can't believe people would do that. When I was little (and we were suffering financially) we got our toys and food from a church... but they never said jack about Jesus. Just smiled, gave us cookies, and told us to enjoy the holidays.

Also, I'm confused at the concept of giving Christmas presents to non-Christians. Why would they sign up for programs like this to get gifts? Or am I wrong about how they come to be involved?

A lot of atheists and people of non-Christian religions celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas, it's extremely prevalent to do that. I actually don't know anyone who celebrates Christmas religiously, but that could just be where I live. You don't need to be Christian to have Santa, and a Christmas tree and pretty lights. Christmas is ubiquitous and most people celebrate the secular aspects regardless of their religion. Jewish children are less likely to celebrate Christmas in my experience, but their parents can use the presents for Hannukah. But most of my Buddhist, Hindu and Atheist friends have always celebrated Christmas.

ETA valsa beat me to it, but much more concisely.