Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[mirele]

The really sick thing that I realized since being here at FJ - it's I don't think that fundies/missionaries do charity work to feel good about themselves or to gain people for the Christian army. I think they do it 'cause they think if they give charity to "heathens" while handing out graphic comic tracts "preaching" the gospel, it'll give them more tickets to get their souls close to Heaven, which is what Martin Luther thought was sick (I forget what those tickets were called). They probably think that every time they proselytize the saving a soul for Jesus, which makes them close to Heaven because they're not like those heathens who aren't their brand of Christianity and don't proselytize themsleves, thinking that they're better than people who don't believe in their particular brand of Christianity because they're not in the group and haven't started (yet) to prosleytize their new tracts' beliefs. You should give to give, be nice to be nice, and care just to care, not do it for some spiritual award that your cult promises you.

If you need the threat of hellfire to make you do good to others, that's not the right motive. And then trying to drag other people into your belief so they can have the same threat of hellfire hanging over their heads, not cool at all.

[JesusFightClub]

Nobody is forcing you to go door to door to complete strangers for candy. You could just throw the tracts away but if the mere presence of a tract within 3 feet of you or your child will make you break out in hives then stay home. Damn.

This is incorrect, I think.

For a start, we're talking, as has been pointed out to you, about poor kids getting Christmas presents with a tract. There is a strong element of coercion there.

Secondly, my nieces. The older one can read quite fluently. The younger one can't, but she understands pictures.

They are deliberately being brought up as atheists by their dad. Their mum was killed by an attacker. Their dad explained to them their mum was in the ground and one day she'd make beautiful flowers grow and a butterfly would come to the flowers. They look forward to this and bring little butterflies to her grave. Our whole family has the motif of butterflies to reassure them til they get older and understand what happened that night.

If anyone, ANYONE, gave those kids a tract that made them a. doubt what their dad is trying to tell them and b. make them wonder if their mum is being tormented in Hell, I would find them and punch them repeatedly in the face. Poor children in other countries may have experienced very traumatic experiences. Playing on their emotions is sheer exploitation.

It's not like saying "Ooh, here's an alternative thing you may wish to consider." It's like saying "You know your dead family members? They died in their sins and went to a terrible place where they are now being tortured. By the way, your parent(s) lied to you."

WOW FANTASTIC MESSAGE. I'm sure no child will feel in any way upset by that, especially in poor countries and/or if they have gone through extreme trauma.

It's also not about "breaking out in hives". It's about being a half decent human being.

[YPestis]

My parents had their own experience of proselytizing as new immigrants to this country. They were eager to assimilate and learn English. There were many local groups that offered free English lessons. Many were religiously affiliated. My parents quickly learned that some were just masquerading as charity, while others were truly trying to help them. They knew one woman----very nice gal---who turned her English lessons into Bible lessons. Some Chinese were upset because they didn't like being duped like that. The local Chinese were insulted people thought they could trick them into reading the Bible under the guise of learning spoken English.

Among some of the English lessons they attended, they also did a church sponsored program. They were weary about going there because of the church affiliation (fearing it would be another attempt at proselytizing). However, it was a real English curriculum, complete with free child care for the parents. Afterwards, the church offered snacks and invited everyone to attend service on Sunday (the class was on Saturday) and/or lunch afterwards if we just wanted to mingle with the churchgoers.

My parents really appreciated what the church were doing, and liked that they didn't push for us to attend services. We went to their after service lunches and I remember it was excellent food.

I guess what I"m saying is, the best way to show one's Christian faith isn't to proselytize or be pushy about it. My parents were respected those Christians whom they felt tried to help them without thought for any reward (i.e our conversion). My mom said she realized there were people who honestly tried to follow the ideals of their faith. She didn't think too highly of people who tried to pass out bible tracts or entice her with gifts for attending church. I wish more fundies realized that.

I wouldn't get too pissy about receiving free toys with bible tracts. However, I would also not consider it a true at of charity as it serves an ulterior motive. It amazes me that these same people would be appalled if their own child received a Hindi or Muslim tract with a toy drive, but think nothing of doing the same with a bible tract.

[luckylibrarian]

Nobody is forcing you to go door to door to complete strangers for candy. You could just throw the tracts away but if the mere presence of a tract within 3 feet of you or your child will make you break out in hives then stay home. Damn.

Who said they were strangers? And no, the thought of a tract being within 3 feet of my child does not make me break out in hives. :roll: Quit being such a drama queen. I am perfectly nice to the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come to my door, and I accept their tracts with a polite "thank you." I have no problem with these materials being given to adults, who hopefully have the critical thinking skills to determine if the church's message is for them or not. Passing out fundie tracts to kids on Halloween or distributing tracts with Christmas gifts targets children. It is parents' responsibility to teach their child about religion. A neighbor or a religious organization passing out tracts directly to children without the parents' consent is crossing a line.

I'd like to know what you'd think if JFC handed your kids a tract on communism or becoming a Marxist-Leninist. Would you be okay with that?

MarthaMarcy is ringing my fundie troll alarm.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

My parents had their own experience of proselytizing as new immigrants to this country. They were eager to assimilate and learn English. There were many local groups that offered free English lessons. Many were religiously affiliated. My parents quickly learned that some were just masquerading as charity, while others were truly trying to help them.

Years ago in my dishwashing days, the cafeteria I worked at hosted a large evangelical conference (held in this midwestern college town once every three years at the time, it has since moved elsewhere because a university campus for 40K students is no longer large enough). As a dishwasher, part of my job was to carry racks of newly washed dishes back to the kitchen, which meant passing through the dining room. This meant overhearing all kinds of interesting conversation from what to me were very exotic fundies, though now I've obviously found far fundier here. :lol:

Anyway, one group of them were having some discussion about a seminar on getting English teaching jobs in China. The idea was, they'd apply for jobs at regular English teaching schools hosted by other (secular) companies (some of those can be pretty shady too, but that's a different thread) and then use the class to teach about Jesus.

That just struck me as WAYYYY not okay. It's one thing to be on the up and up, "hey, we'll teach you English by teaching you to read the Bible" (one hopes they use a modern translation!!) and let people choose it or not but this sneaky infiltration business was just... I don't even know. I can only hope that if people tried pulling this those companies would fire their asses.

[valsa]

Anyway, one group of them were having some discussion about a seminar on getting English teaching jobs in China. The idea was, they'd apply for jobs at regular English teaching schools hosted by other (secular) companies (some of those can be pretty shady too, but that's a different thread) and then use the class to teach about Jesus.

That just struck me as WAYYYY not okay. It's one thing to be on the up and up, "hey, we'll teach you English by teaching you to read the Bible" (one hopes they use a modern translation!!) and let people choose it or not but this sneaky infiltration business was just... I don't even know. I can only hope that if people tried pulling this those companies would fire their asses.

I don't see what the big deal is. Those people don't have to learn English.

[roddma]

I didn't know angel tree was religious. Now wonder they don't put price limits on gifts. Sorry to sound selfish but if I could afford an ipod it would be for me. I prefer chariites that let me give what I want- when I can afford to. Strang, you never hear of atheist or agnostics going door to door or luring with expensive presents to promote their agenda.

Edited because I went back and read more comments. Just Lucky is only stating their opinion. I think we can all agree to disagree. It is all too easy to get worked up at the word ' Christian'. I don't like the idea of using charity to convert but non-religious peopler can also have an ulterior motif in giving.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

The point is if you are getting free shit don't complain. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I would not mind if it were an atheist or other religious tract because I could JUST THROW IT AWAY!

[Arete]

If your right hand knows what your left hand is doing when it comes to giving gifts to underpriviledged children, it's not charity. Period. This "their faith compels them to do this" or "it's only a tract that can be tossed" is just so much bullshit piled on top. End of discussion.

JFC, if anyone gave your nieces tracts like that, not only should you punch them, your are absolutely duty bound as their aunt to knock them into next week.

:evil:

[Maude]

The point is if you are getting free shit don't complain. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I would not mind if it were an atheist or other religious tract because I could JUST THROW IT AWAY!

That's not the point though. As has been said, the point is that these so-called "do-gooders" have ulterior motives. That shouldn't happen. Period. Just because the end result is more or less the same, it doesn't mean that motives don't matter. This is especially disgusting since the target is children. I've no doubt that if any other faith were doing this, there'd be an uproar. It being Christian doesn't make it okay.

[valsa]

The point is if you are getting free shit don't complain. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I would not mind if it were an atheist or other religious tract because I could JUST THROW IT AWAY!

Children should not be the targets of propaganda.

Not even if it's accompanied by "free shit". Not even if it's something they can just throw away.

[Maggie Mae]

It is love and compassion because they are trying to save their souls.

WTF is a 'soul'?

[B5SnowDog]

The point is if you are getting free shit don't complain. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I would not mind if it were an atheist or other religious tract because I could JUST THROW IT AWAY!

I'm starting to think you'd fit right in at the SBC church you checked out.

[JesusFightClub]

If your right hand knows what your left hand is doing when it comes to giving gifts to underpriviledged children, it's not charity. Period. This "their faith compels them to do this" or "it's only a tract that can be tossed" is just so much bullshit piled on top. End of discussion.

JFC, if anyone gave your nieces tracts like that, not only should you punch them, your are absolutely duty bound as their aunt to knock them into next week.

:evil:

And I would :)

Their dad is a full on atheist and that's how he wants them to be brought up (he's of the Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins school). Anyone who tried to change them away from what their dad wants would be wrong. He reckons when they are older they can decide for themselves and he'll not stand in their way.

[formergothardite]

The point is if you are getting free shit don't complain. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I would not mind if it were an atheist or other religious tract because I could JUST THROW IT AWAY!

The point is, and what you seem to be missing, is that churches and Christians who look at people, especially children, in need and don't just see an opportunity to help, they see an opportunity that they can exploit to try and gain more souls for Christ. Yes, you are obviously okay with the poor Hindu families having to choose between their children going without or their children gettting their needs met while at the same time getting told that their religion is false and their parents have lied to them. You think that is fine, I get that. I don't think it is fine. I think it makes Christians who do that shitty people who are really putting their own wants and desires first. They don't look at the poor and needy and see individuals with individual wants and needs who they can help, they look at them and just see a group of lost souls that they need to try and get.

Just because they THINK it is love doesn't make it love. Kendall thinks it is love to beat her kids all day, doesn't make that love either. Trying to reach children for Christ without their parents permission isn't loving, respectful or appropriate. But is is especially sick to do that when you dangle the "I have what your kids need" over the parents' heads to force them to let you witness to their kids.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm starting to think you'd fit right in at the SBC church you checked out.

Me too. More liberal denominations don't really push converting people or telling children they need Jesus to get into heaven. Giving out tracts targeted at poor children

And just because they have good intentions, or because you can throw it out, doesn't make it okay. They're not upfront about what they're doing and they're targeting children. All the hate done in the name of religion has "good intentions", that doesn't make it right. And people shouldn't have to throw it away. I'm guessing you don't believe poor people deserve free shit if they dare complain about a religion they don't believe being pushed on their children? I'm sure they'd win more souls for Jesus by just helping for the sake of it.

[MonkeyMomma]

So after eleven pages, I've been thinking about this thread a lot. I guess it comes down to this for me - putting bible tracts in gifts for kids is a pretty crappy thing to do. After years of touching or being involved in various religious (Christian) based charities, I've never been involved in one that does something like this. Which is not to say, "Oh, such a thing never happens," because it has been made quite clear that it DOES. What I mean to say is that there is ample evidence that you can run a charity or program that springs from your religious impulses that does not belittle, demean, or frighten others, and respects the dignity of other people to make their own choices about religion. When I worked for nuns for a year, they ran (among other things) a free/low-cost day care, free clinics, English language programs, and a transitional home for immigrant and refugee women. NONE of these programs involved any preaching or converting. When I worked at a shelter, the local Catholic Charities collected toys for the kids and coats for families. NONE of these gifts came with any expectations. A couple churches "adopted" our shelter and regularly donated food and paper goods. NOTHING about Jesus was ever dropped off. It is certainly the prerogative of an individual church to try and convert, but they lose my respect when they do.

So, to the comment of "if you go to a church for charity, expect to have to get a tract or get preached to," NO. If you received help from my church, that's what you'd get - help. Maybe info about services, etc if you were curious. But that's it.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

I'm starting to think you'd fit right in at the SBC church you checked out.

Me too.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

their religion is false.

It is.

[valsa]

It is.

All religion is false.

[formergothardite]

Me too.

That is sad. You think you would fit in in a place that that is anti-woman, anti-abortion, and anti-gay anything.

[formergothardite]

It is.

Where did I write "thier religion is false"? Or did you write that because you are being a bitch and saying that you don't give a shit about the Hindu parents' feelings?

[Guest Anonymous]

Where did I write "thier religion is false"? Or did you write that because you are being a bitch and saying that you don't give a shit about the Hindu parents' feelings?

She's just trolling now. I suspected so on the "Ooh, shall I join a backward bigoted church, FJ?" thread. I'm done with her now.

[desertvixen]

It is.

Not quoting all of what formergothardite wrote is kind of a trolly move....

[luckylibrarian]

I wonder why this topic, of all things, got her fundie panties all in a wad.