Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[lilith]

Some non-Christians celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.

It is promoted as a secular holiday through schools, media and most facets of our society. Even non Christian children generally get gifts and would feel left out and deprived if their parents were unable to provide gifts and some kind of a christmas celebration.

[jaynie]

I am slightly reminded of the day our class was given our free gideon bibles. It was an opt in program but almost everyone opted in, leaving me and two muslim children to do busywork in class while they got their shiny new books. I had no interest in getting a bible and even told my parents I didn't want one -- but still, I remember feeling *extremely* excluded, especially when my peers came back to class all jesus-happy. I felt different and wrong, *even though* I was very firm in my non-beliefs. I can't imagine how it would feel to get bible tracts in your Christmas presents. I imagine for me it would have been a miserable reminder to me that almost everyone sees the world in an entirely different way -- and probably that they think I've going to hell, that my parents are awful for not sending me to church, etc. Some gift!

Share the gospel with grown ups, if you must. They can give informed consent to your proselytizing. But there are so many ways you can hurt kids by blithely assuming that what they really need is to be told all about hell, and how they're almost certainly headed there.

[pomology]

Yeah, cause single mums always stock up on their heroin at the Walmart post Christmas sales......

Yeah, what?

[Caxpax]

experiencedd - I'm a pastor at a non-denominational church that is loosely affiliated with the Foursquare Gospel, the founder of which was a woman. She may or may not have gone nuts later on in life, though, so I'm not sure if that's something to brag about. haha

hmmm, it was at exactly this brand of church (*i was highly amused when i learned all about Aimee semple mcpherson in high school!*) where I was first "presented with the gospel" and simultaneously scared shitless. it was really quite charming= at 7 years old getting to play a fun game of "godly" vs. "sin"- the youth pastor would call our things (obeying your parents, tellng lies, etc) and we would race to the "good" or "bad" side of the room. i was mocked when i thought "Reading your bible once a week" was good- apparently we were supposed to be reading it multiple times per day. And then we received magazines with an illustration of dead children hanging from trees. their parents had killed them for being disobedient, because god said it was ok, dontcha know. and then they gave us cookies and fruit punch.

i had nightmares for YEARS after that. YEARS. So lucky- tell me more about how you can present the gospel in a way that doesn't scare kids? because the gospel is in fact, fucking scary. even if you leave out all the murdered innocents and the flooding. a man being whipped and hung to a cross and left to die is nightmarish. the fact that people like you think that stuff that earns an NC-17 rating is appropriate to present to children inside fucking gift packages is fucking ridiculous.

[lilith]

Yeah, what?

Was simply sarcasm aimed at the small mindedness of people like the one Emmie quoted. Obviously poorly expressed sarcasm, sorry.

[formergothardite]

Until I left religion I really didn't realize how scary the gospel story is for children, so I can believe that Lucky really thinks she isn't scaring children when she presents it. But I also have a feeling that she isn't open to finding out that she really might be doing that, because then she will have to know everytime she presents the gospel to a child she could be giving them nightmares, or find another way to show God's love. The latter is hard, it is easier to just hand kids a tract and tell them about how they need Jesus to go to heaven.

[dawbs]

Some non-Christians celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.

Christians have worked hard to make Christmas the defacto holiday celebrated by everyone in the USA. It's become a cultural celebration as much as a religious one

So it makes sense that folks who are part of the culture are going to celebrate it regardless of religion.

[pomology]

Was simply sarcasm aimed at the small mindedness of people like the one Emmie quoted. Obviously poorly expressed sarcasm, sorry.

No, I was agreeing with you.

[lilith]

No, I was agreeing with you.

My apologies then, I'm the one being dense :oops:

[valsa]

Christians have worked hard to make Christmas the defacto holiday celebrated by everyone in the USA. It's become a cultural celebration as much as a religious one

So it makes sense that folks who are part of the culture are going to celebrate it regardless of religion.

I like that Christmas is becoming more secular. It started out pagan, was arm-twisted into becoming Christian, and now is a secular celebration of a season of giving and selflessness (or commercialization, depending on where you're located on the spectrum of idealism vs. cynicism)

[Boogalou]

If I were the OP I would give this year because I had already committed to it, but that would be it. I wouldn't sign up again and I would let them know why. They way I see it is looking at which option is worse. Either a kid does/may not get any presents at all or they get presents and some "witness material". I think that as a kid the latter would be worse but YMMV.

About the gospel being presented to children... I was raised in the United Church of Canada which is one of the most liberal Christian denominations going. What I really remember learning about Jesus when I was little was that he was a nice person who helped the poor and we should do that too. He also healed the sick, walked on water, and multiplied the loaves and fishes. I also knew that he was killed by crucifixion but it never really scarred me because I didn't really get what crucifixion was at that point in my life. I knew it involved the cross, but a lot of that was glossed over. The focus on Easter was that Jesus came back to life. Why he died wasn't super important, they may have talked about how he was going against the Romans but I can't remember. The United Church also isn't big on hell. I'm having trouble finding their official position on it but someone asked our Sunday school teacher about it and he told us that he didn't believe in hell because God is loving so God would never send someone there and he didn't even really believe it existed. The concept of Jesus dying for our sins was something I never really realized was a part of Christian theology until high school. I also attended Catholic public schools and it wasn't really discussed there either. This long spiel is just to say "the gospel" or at least parts of Jesus can be presented to kids in a not scary and emotionally scarring way.

[LilMissMetaphor]

It would be so awesome if all those boxes went to the parents then they could get to have the joy of giving it to their children and not have Samaritans Purse get that joy. Then parents could decide if they wanted to take gospel info to give their kids.

That wouldn't bring much joy to the orphan kids though.

Edited to add: you guys are on crack if you think your average kid would choose "no present" over "present plus piece of paper with cartoons about some dead guy." Fucks sake, kids are as gory as all shit most of the time and not just on Halloween.

I'm sorry. But there it is. You are CRACKHEADS.

[lilith]

That wouldn't bring much joy to the orphan kids though.

Edited to add: you guys are on crack if you think your average kid would choose "no present" over "present plus piece of paper with cartoons about some dead guy." Fucks sake, kids are as gory as all shit most of the time and not just on Halloween.

I'm sorry. But there it is. You are CRACKHEADS.

Sure kids would rather a present with a scary evangelical message to no present at all. Kids would also prefer to never eat green vegetables. That's why their parents decide what is healthy for them.

And their parents should get to choose what they consider to be spiritually healthy for their children. True charity should not involve a child having to receive a spiritual message that their parents don't agree with to qualify.

Nobody is saying that churches shouldn't be allowed to include evangelical materials with their Christmas gifts. Just that donors and parents should be informed if that is going to be the case, and that if churches are giving to needy children as a way to proselytise then they aren't giving in a spirit of pure charity.

[Arete]

Sure kids would rather a present with a scary evangelical message to no present at all. Kids would also prefer to never eat green vegetables. That's why their parents decide what is healthy for them.

And their parents should get to choose what they consider to be spiritually healthy for their children. True charity should not involve a child having to receive a spiritual message that their parents don't agree with to qualify.

Nobody is saying that churches shouldn't be allowed to include evangelical materials with their Christmas gifts. Just that donors and parents should be informed if that is going to be the case, and that if churches are giving to needy children as a way to proselytise then they aren't giving in a spirit of pure charity.

I'm not going to lie, I think MissMetaphor is spot on that a kid would want a present even with a slightly creepy story (we aren't talking about Chick tracts here), but it's still a crappy thing to do when you have the power to see that a kid gets some presents for Christmas and you insist on attaching strings. My 2 cents, if the OP already committed, then either get some assurance there is enough time to find a new donor or get the kid the gift. Then raise holy HELL with the institution she works for so that this is stopped, or at the very least people understand the implications of this program. Some people are going to be evangelical with no problem with this, but I suspect a good number of people are going to have a big problem.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Of course the kid will want the present, and the kid will want to go to the really cool and neat proselytizing after school program with snacks, too, where all the staff are bright and happy and "proper examples."

That just makes it all the more horrible for the parent, who doesn't want to deny the kid but also knows that the kid is being brainwashed and alienated from his family.

[emmiedahl]

Yeah, what?

A lot of people are convinced you can exchange a gift card for cash.

Another common complaint was that people would buy tobacco or alcohol with it. Mind you, these are Catholics who will be enjoying some alcohol and/or tobacco on Christmas themselves.

The gift card thing was kind of my fault because the social workers who enrolled families in the program said many of the adults were embarrassed to ask for what they really wanted: laundry soap, tampons, adult diapers for grandma. Or they needed makeup or bras but of course a stranger cannot buy that for you. In a meeting about the issue, I said "Why not tell them to ask for a gift card to Target or Walmart?" Seemed rational to me. Then the recipient can hit the post-Christmas sales and get some deals on what they need.

Including the parents has been (and from what I hear from former co-workers, continues to be) controversial, but our director was adamant that Christmas is about families and not just children. She was raised poor and remembered Christmases when she noticed that her mother did not get a single present. It ruined Christmas for her. But a lot of our wealthier donors, the ones who were adopting 10-20 families each, had not been through that experience.

As for non-Christians celebrating Christmas, that seems like a no-brainer to me. I am in a mixed-faith marriage and my children have been exposed to the pretty parts of Christianity like Christmas Eve mass and Sunday school. Of course we celebrate Christmas, as I did as a child of a mixed-faith couple. As I tell them, we celebrate the birthdays of all good men. That does not mean that I want them to see the ugly side of Christianity at such a young age. And the ugly side, unfortunately, is the entire world view. The original sin, Hell, someone dying a bloody death because someone else ate an apple. A lot of children have a Christmas that is made of gifts and hope in the darkness of winter, similar to the holiday from which Christmas was stolen.

[lilith]

The present I was given the year I relied on charity for Christmas meant so much to me it made me cry.

I had already asked all friends and family not to buy for me, just to focus on the kids. My mother gave me a gift card for Christmas with strict instructions to buy something for myself, and I promptly spent it on the kids. To be given some pretty bath and shower stuff and a novel, wrapped up and just for me, meant a lot and was the catalyst for me letting out a lot of built up stress and grief. Trying to provide Christmas with no money, especially to children who have been raised in prosperity, is incredibly stressful, and parents automatically put their needs last.

That's why I always donate some pretty bath luxuries and a book voucher ( grateful as I was, novel wasn't to my taste, although I read it anyway for lack of other reading materials) while my kids donate toys. Christmas is for everyone, and that first year I did it alone as a single parent of three Santa believing children was one of the hardest moments of my divorce. Any mum who is relying on charity to provide her children's Christmas is going through a lot of stress and guilt and deserves to know someone is thinking of her.

[rock_girl]

Poor kiddos, why can't they have something nice one day a year and get the preaching the other 364 days? And why shouldn't their parents get something nice? Even if it is a carton of cigs. Christ, as long as they're not smoking around their children they should be allowed a day of indulgence. God knows the rest of the year isn't something to write home about.

I really hate the way religious gifts come with so many strings attached. It's not a gift if the recipient is required to grovel and prove themselves worthy of it. At that point they're employed to humiliate themselves for you and their wage is whatever castoff you deem appropriate.

[2Cents]

I have done the Adopt A Family at Christmas time for the past 5 years or so. I started doing it so that my children could see and understand the need that is out there. Now this year I am unable to do it bc earlier this year I spent 3 weeks in a coma and suffered a stroke so needless to say I have been unable to work or go back to school as of yet. I am going to have to sign my kids up for the Salvation Army Christmas donation just so that they will be able to receive a gift this year. I don't however want them to have to preached at or to receive bible tracts. Having to apply for Christmas donations comes with enough shame that they nor I need to be told how we're sinners and going to hell. Just to be clear I wasn't trying to imply that a person who needs help should be ashamed just that a lot of ppl look down on those who are in need. FYI I am not a single mother looking to score heroin on sale after Christmas, just a single mother who has hit a rough patch lol.

[emmiedahl]

As a poor person who is not so poor I cannot afford a few Hanukkah/Christmas presents, I completely agree!

When I worked for Catholic Charities, I did not see the parents as less than human. Helping with Adopt-A-Family really made the holiday season for me. Even though I am not Christian, I thought of those families opening their presents on Christmas morning with a huge grin. There are so many days every year to be poor, but this one day would be one that parents could watch their children open presents and smile and feel rich. I did not need experience to tell me that ultimately, we are rich when our children are happy and a bit spoiled. A good child deserves to be spoiled sometimes. I ran a large benefit at the same time every year that brought in seven figures in income for the various good works we did, but Adopt-A-Family was what made me happy inside.

Now that I have a bit more experience as a poor parent, I can say confidently that the best gift to a parent is having something under the tree on Christmas morning for a child to open. Children are told everywhere, even at our supposedly secular schools, that good children who do the right things will have their hearts' desire waiting on Christmas morning.

[formergothardite]

That wouldn't bring much joy to the orphan kids though.

Edited to add: you guys are on crack if you think your average kid would choose "no present" over "present plus piece of paper with cartoons about some dead guy." Fucks sake, kids are as gory as all shit most of the time and not just on Halloween.

I'm sorry. But there it is. You are CRACKHEADS.

Well, the gifts could be given to the caregivers of the children who are orphans and if there were orphan children with no caregivers, then the OCC workers could give them the gifts, and it would be nice if they would just given them a gift without also trying to forcing a religion on them. If they can't help just for the sake of helping, then they aren't really loving and kind, they are just seeing children with a need, and not going "Wow, lets help those children." they are saying, "This is a great opportunity for us to convert kids for Christ."

I am fairly sure no one said that children would choose no present, I'm not sure where you got the idea that was being said. The whole point of this thread, of course children want the presents, and parents whose children need presents want them to get presents.

So, yeah, no crackheads in this thread because no one said that children would rather go without presents.

[valsa]

Well, the gifts could be given to the caregivers of the children who are orphans and if there were orphan children with no caregivers, then the OCC workers could give them the gifts, and it would be nice if they would just given them a gift without also trying to forcing a religion on them. If they can't help just for the sake of helping, then they aren't really loving and kind, they are just seeing children with a need, and not going "Wow, lets help those children." they are saying, "This is a great opportunity for us to convert kids for Christ."

I am fairly sure no one said that children would choose no present, I'm not sure where you got the idea that was being said. The whole point of this thread, of course children want the presents, and parents whose children need presents want them to get presents.

So, yeah, no crackheads in this thread because no one said that children would rather go without presents.

Forget it, formergothardite. It's Chinatown LilMissMetaphor.

[Guest Anonymous]

Some of the stories on the OCC website are plain sick.

Poverty in Bacau

For many children from Dodeni - a poor gipsy neighbourhood from Bicaz, the shoeboxes received from the Baptist Church were the only gift they received and they don't forget easily. They don't expect to receive gifts from their parents. Why should they expect presents from them, if many times the parents can't even buy them food?

Or if you have to walk without any socks or shoes in the winter time, how can you expect gifts from your parents or relatives? Actually, how can you ask for more when you are holding this colourful, shiny wonderful shoebox?

It is no wonder that there is such excitement when we distribute these shoeboxes. As you go through these poor areas you are marked by the sadness of these children that live only with the hope that one day their lives might change.

We thank God and those who made it possible for these shoeboxes to find these children and make them smile.

Constantin Hohan

Some of the money spent on hellfire literature could have been better spent on shoes, no? :roll:

[Katiebug]

We always donate to Toys for Tots. What can I say, I love the sight of Marines in their dress blues! :lol:

My husband's workplace has a giving tree that is run by local churches and community groups, and for the last two years we've selected a child of the same age and gender as our daughter and will do the same this year. It about broke my heart last year to see that the parent of the child had requested only a warm winter coat and board books - no toys, just what we consider necessities and are fortunate enough to be able to provide as a matter of course. It was already a cold winter and as a parent, the thought of not being able to give my little girl a warm coat? :( You'd better believe we picked a nice warm coat and a bunch of books, plus a few fun toys that our little girl liked a lot at the time and a Target gift card for the parent. There is no proselytizing associated with this giving tree, even though there are church groups involved.

As a Christian of the mainstream/non-pushy variety, I find it pretty awful that religious groups would include tracts and put conditions on charity, especially for vulnerable children. The church we used to attend has an ongoing ministry of knitting, crocheting, and sewing warm hats, mittens, scarves, and blankets in all sizes and they are distributed through the city's social services department to the homeless and those in shelters (it is wholly secular). The church also does a holiday gift box program for the residents of a local nursing home - large print books and magazines, puzzles, toiletry items, slippers, sweat suits, etc. The boxes include a Christmas card from the congregation, but that's it - no Bible and certainly no tracts or other religious literature. The local branch of Lutheran Social Services also does a drive for socks and winter coats for homeless men - a group that is often overlooked in charitable giving. The church we've started attending recently has a group that makes hundreds of those no-sew fleece blankets and scarves, all of which are distributed in our area through LSS.

Those are all things that normal, non-fundie churches (and other houses of worship and secular community groups) do to help people in need in their communities without frightening children or pushing religion on people of other faiths or no faith. Jesus wasn't shoving Chick tracts at the poor, the sick, and the downtrodden - he was helping them meet their physical needs and encouraged his followers to do the same. He loved and cared for people regardless of circumstances. Do these fundies even READ the effing New Testament?!? :?

[formergothardite]

I wonder how many of these children who are getting tracts and being encouraged to go to that 12 week program already believe in a God, it just isn't the god approved of by Franklin Graham?