Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't have kids yet but assholes like you better stay the fuck away from them.

Kids should be off limits.

I wish the assholes had stayed the fuck away from me. I still remember laying awake at night afraid to go to sleep after my first gospel presentation. I got a huge free chocolate bar with it.

I won't agree to disagree. I won't let it drop. It's very, very wrong.

[JukeboxLucky]

Former, I'm pretty sure I've helped people before without handing out a tract or sharing the gospel. I also don't think handing out a tract makes me suck as a human being. I believe I should share the gospel because it's the most important thing, in my opinion. But I also don't think it should be dangled like a carrot in front of needy people. I can tell the difference.

valsa- Sorry to have given you the impression that I'm an asshole for believing differently than you.

[JukeboxLucky]

I can see there is no agreeing to disagree on this front, so I'm just going to drop it. Sorry to have upset anyone!

[formergothardite]

You don't have to mention hell to tell kids they are going to hell without Jesus. Just the gospel story is enough. Believe in Jesus to get to heaven. Even small kids can figure out the opposite of heaven and what will happen if you don't believe in Jesus all without being told "you are going to hell".

My daughter heard about Jesus dying on the cross from a child at school and it scared her. Think of that the next time you give out a gospel tract to a child, Lucky.

So you were okay with what happened to my sister's friend and forcing parents in third world countries into that same situation?

[formergothardite]

Oh, wait another Christian flouncing instead of being willing to face what they are really doing, how shocking.

[valsa]

valsa- Sorry to have given you the impression that I'm an asshole for believing differently than you.

Nice strawman but the reason you're an asshole isn't because you believe differently than I do, it's because you see nothing wrong with peddling your brand of horseshit to vulnerable people like children.

[Guest Anonymous]

I can see there is no agreeing to disagree on this front, so I'm just going to drop it. Sorry to have upset anyone!

What you are doing often upsets children. Something to think about... :?

[JukeboxLucky]

Not trying to 'flounce' off in a huff - I'm not angry, I'm not running away from what I believe... it just seems pretty obvious that we're not going to have a respectful discussion about our differing beliefs and opinions. Not my cup of tea to sit here and argue and be called a lousy person and an asshole when neither party are changing our minds and are coming from totally different view-points. Again, sorry if what I believe upsets you or if I've presented what I believe in an offensive manner, but I'm a Christian and I really do believe in presenting the gospel message. I believe it's what Christ asked his followers to do. That's where we can't get on the same footing, I think. It's what I believe to my core- Christians should present the gospel.

[valsa]

It's what I believe to my core- Christians should present the gospel.

And brainwashing children is a wonderful example of the kind of Christian you are.

No wonder your religion is hemorrhaging believers.

[formergothardite]

It isn't respectful to present your religion to my children either. Especially since your religion has scared at least two children as mentioned in this thread.

The core of you involves not being willing to not scare children. And you are proud of this.

Present the gospel by living God's love.

Do you want to at least acknowledge that you can scare and give children nightmares by your actions, that is what I meant by not wanting to face what you are really doing.

[Witsec7]

Not trying to 'flounce' off in a huff - I'm not angry, I'm not running away from what I believe... it just seems pretty obvious that we're not going to have a respectful discussion about our differing beliefs and opinions. Not my cup of tea to sit here and argue and be called a lousy person and an asshole when neither party are changing our minds and are coming from totally different view-points. Again, sorry if what I believe upsets you or if I've presented what I believe in an offensive manner, but I'm a Christian and I really do believe in presenting the gospel message. I believe it's what Christ asked his followers to do. That's where we can't get on the same footing, I think. It's what I believe to my core- Christians should present the gospel.

You mentioned you are a pastor, what denomination?

[Sola]

There are plenty of Christians (and maybe churches) that do nice things without also forcing their religion on others, but the people and churches that insist on giving out tracts to those they help are not in that group.

Because, Lucky, a parent in a third world country has to choose between their child getting an OCC box while also getting a tract and being encouraged to go to church or go without a box. So, get a box and hear about how they can go to hell without Jesus or go without. The exact same situation my sister's friend was in.

This^

I support an organisation here in my town which helps homeless people. It gives out food parcels, has a soup kitchen and does a whole host of other things. It's run from a church, by the church, however it is completely secular. There is no proselyting whatsoever. There are no tracts, no bibles, no sermons, not even a 'God loves you' - unless the person expresses an interest in it. If the person starts talking about god, then the conversation might continue with an offer to learn more about the Bible. If the person says no thanks, that's it, it's left right there.

There are lots of people of all faiths and none involved in it, the local Muslim congregation have donated to it in the past. That to me is the right way of doing it. And honestly, I think that you are probably more likely to 'bring more people to Christ' that way too. If they started proselyting with it, even just in the form of tracts in the food parcels, then I would stop donating to it and find something else.

[formergothardite]

You know, it just blows my mind. It is not your cup of tea to sit hear and hear how lousy a person you are, but it is your cup of tea to go tell children that they are lousy and need Christ to go to heaven. Sure you will sugar coat the lousy part of it, but you can't really tell the gospel story without telling children they are sinners.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm surprised that Lucky didn't mention that children who receive shoe boxes are now also invited to a 12-week programme that teaches them the gospel in great detail. http://www.operationchristmaschild.org. ... ide-12.pdf

[formergothardite]

I don't think she wants to come back and talk anymore since we dare to point out that forcing your religion on kids while giving them gifts is a shitting thing to do and that her actions scare kids.

[Alecto]

I think there are ways that a church could put out a "gospel message" and still be respectful. To me, those would include things like inviting the parent(s) to come visit their church or to some specific event, but also not pressuring them. Likewise, they could send a nice card/letter to the parents letting them know of upcoming beneficial events (food pantry hours, social events) for them.

In short, I think that if any church wants to share anything religious, it should be through the parents. The most important thing to me is that parents have control over their child(ren)'s religious education and exposure. As adults, we are far more equipped to deal with saying no.

[JukeboxLucky]

experiencedd - I'm a pastor at a non-denominational church that is loosely affiliated with the Foursquare Gospel, the founder of which was a woman. She may or may not have gone nuts later on in life, though, so I'm not sure if that's something to brag about. haha

Former- if I were to talk to children about the gospel, I'd present it in a non-threatening way. I'd never tell a child horrific, gory detail about Jesus' crucifixion, nor would I tell them they're a black-hearted sinner dangling above the pits of a fiery hell. That's not the way the gospel was presented to me and not the way I'd present it to anyone else.

[formergothardite]

Explain the gospel to us here the way you would explain it to a child, because all it took for my daughter was Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

[ElphabaGalinda]

If you want to spread the Gospel (which no one in North America hasn't heard before, by the way), why not just do that when it's clear that what you're doing and stick to adults? I was terrified when a door to door missionary told me I needed to accept Jesus to go to Heaven. I was 7, and my mother was right there to hear it and get furious by it. There is absolutely no reason to put a tract in a gift, none. I would be furious if anyone did that to my future children, and people who can't afford presents for their children are vulnerable to begin with.

The proselytizing is what I find off putting about the denominations of Christianity that do it, but it should be done openly, not slipped in to a gift or a condition of receiving charity. And children should ALWAYS be off limits. If you really care about giving back you can do it without the tract. And if you put the tract in, then giving back isn't your true goal, and you should be open about it.

[JukeboxLucky]

Alecto- Valid point and I'm curious to know if the parents of the children receiving OCC boxes are aware that their children will receive a gospel tract or be invited to a Christian church.

Former- Why would you want me to do that? I'm pretty sure it's not because you're curious about the gospel, I think you want to tear apart any answer I'm going to give to you.

[Witsec7]

Alecto- Valid point and I'm curious to know if the parents of the children receiving OCC boxes are aware that their children will receive a gospel tract or be invited to a Christian church.

Former- Why would you want me to do that? I'm pretty sure it's not because you're curious about the gospel, I think you want to tear apart any answer I'm going to give to you.

So what is your denomination? You've already admitted to being a pastor.

[valsa]

I don't think she wants to come back and talk anymore since we dare to point out that forcing your religion on kids while giving them gifts is a shitting thing to do and that her actions scare kids.

Lucky is a woman?

That somehow makes it worse. It shouldn't, but it does.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Explain the gospel to us here the way you would explain it to a child, because all it took for my daughter was Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

All it took for me was being told you need to accept Jesus into your heart to get into heaven. Because growing up in a Jewish family I was taught that that's not what our family believed. And formergothardite probably wants to know to explain to you how no matter how you phrase it, it can sound terrifying to children raised with other beliefs (or no beliefs at all) to be told they have to believe in a certain thing to get into heaven.

[formergothardite]

Alecto- Valid point and I'm curious to know if the parents of the children receiving OCC boxes are aware that their children will receive a gospel tract or be invited to a Christian church.

Former- Why would you want me to do that? I'm pretty sure it's not because you're curious about the gospel, I think you want to tear apart any answer I'm going to give to you.

Well you claim to do it in a way that wouldn't scare children, and since I have never heard the Gospel presented in that manner I am wondering how you would do it. Are you worried it actually does scare children and you will have to face that your actions can be scary to children?

Even if the parents of kids who receive OCC are aware that their kids are going to be getting tracts and being invited to church, what are they going to do if they don't want that to happen to their child? Watch as their kid cries when everyone else gets a box and they don't?

[Witsec7]

Well you claim to do it in a way that wouldn't scare children, and since I have never heard the Gospel presented in that manner I am wondering how you would do it. Are you worried it actually does scare children and you will have to face that your actions scare kids?

Even if the parents of kids who receive OCC are aware that their kids are going to be getting tracts and being invited to church, what are they going to do if they don't want that to happen to their child? Watch as their kid cries when everyone else gets a box and they don't?

What about the legal age for consent? Is that something a pastor would ignore? A child can be too young to consent to sex but old enough to consent to religious indoctrination? It makes no sense.