Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[Irishy]

See, this is what's missing from the Catholics. The evangelising. Their organisations (in Ireland anyway) just give for the sake of being, well, Christian. No strings. With their declining numbers and asshattery in the Vatican, they're missing a trick here ;-)

[formergothardite]

So Lucky, by supporting Samaritan's Purse you are supporting the exact same thing as what my friend went through.

[valsa]

It also kind of sounds like there's an underlying implication that all Christians never do anything nice just for the sake of being nice.

I wouldn't say "never do anything", but certainly in this case they're not doing something nice just for the sake of being nice.

[Swamptribe]

Ya know, you can be a Christian, do nice things for people, and not preach. One of my regular customers at work is a youth minister. He and a friend of his, another Minister, fixed my car one day. I didn't even know they were doing it. Had been complaining about the problem. They asked for my keys to see if they could figure out what it was. Next thing I know they had replaced the spark plugs and wires. They refused to take money, and not once mentioned their religion, church, or any other such thing. They just did something nice for somebody else. That's called walking the walk people.

[Guest Anonymous]

See, this is what's missing from the Catholics. The evangelising. Their organisations (in Ireland anyway) just give for the sake of being, well, Christian. No strings. With their declining numbers and asshattery in the Vatican, they're missing a trick here ;-)

Donna's onto it ;) : http://donnacorigibson.com/friendsofdon ... tmaseaster

[JukeboxLucky]

How, Former? Genuinely confused...

[formergothardite]

There are plenty of Christians (and maybe churches) that do nice things without also forcing their religion on others, but the people and churches that insist on giving out tracts to those they help are not in that group.

Because, Lucky, a parent in a third world country has to choose between their child getting an OCC box while also getting a tract and being encouraged to go to church or go without a box. So, get a box and hear about how they can go to hell without Jesus or go without. The exact same situation my sister's friend was in.

[Guest Anonymous]

Formergothardite- No. I don't think that's okay. And I don't think supporting Samaritan's Purse (an organization that puts a tract in every box full of gifts) is quite the same thing.

It also kind of sounds like there's an underlying implication that all Christians never do anything nice just for the sake of being nice.

All? Never? The conversation has been quite focused around the thread title I think. Why do you say this?

[formergothardite]

This is from a British site that had concerns with OCC, especially with how they try to cover up, at least in Britian what they are really doing:

What they told people in from this organization who questioned them:

We don't force our belief system upon anybody," said Sean Campbell, executive director of Samaritan's Purse Canada.

"We're over there trying to help them, we're trying to make the quality of their lives better and we're not over there to convert them."

What they said in a newsletter sent to churches:

We shared the Gospel with them and distributed Bibles,†Victor said. “Each time we do a distribution, it begins with a testimony that Jesus loves you and died for you...Operation Christmas Child is one of the best evangelistic tools because it is a gift,†ministry partner Victor Kulbich said. “It opens the door to telling about Jesus.â€

https://sites.google.com/site/occalert/Home/concerns

It also explains more about the tract they hand out to the children.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I've been an atheist my entire life and I can just imagine how shitty I would've felt if I knew I wasn't getting anything for my lovely secular x-mas as a kid without a side dish of preaching. I think I had even less tolerance for preaching as a child, so it would have spoiled all the fun. Non-Christians are allowed to join the fun too, and the tracts and/or personal proselytizing almost reeks as a bid for gratitude.

I wanted to add that our local public school takes up a list from teachers of kids that may not get anything at Christmas and I buy some for that. I don't get an real information other than "boy aged 7 likes robots and video games" so sometimes it's hard to know what to buy. I generally put some random "fun things" in with whatever they asked for like some cute school supplies (character erasers/pencils) and then maybe a neat t-shirt or something.

My daughter's school does this too. My mom teaches there and she usually goes that route.

My husband is a retail manager and his store usually sponsors a family. The employees chip in for toys and he and I usually buy a bunch of clothes and/or winter gear. In the past he's gone through the Salvation Army (I had honestly never given using them a second thought up until last year), but this year we found a family independently. No middle man = no religious bullshit.

[Irishy]

There are plenty of Christians (and maybe churches) that do nice things without also forcing their religion on others, but the people and churches that insist on giving out tracts to those they help are not in that group.

Because, Lucky, a parent in a third world country has to choose between their child getting an OCC box while also getting a tract and being encouraged to go to church or go without a box. So, get a box and hear about how they can go to hell without Jesus or go without. The exact same situation my sister's friend was in.

Like the Society of St Vincent de Paul, the Capuchin homeless centre in Dublin. Just gotta give a bit of credit to these guys. Give, give, give, help, help, help, relentless and no strings, no preaching.

[formergothardite]

That is exactly how it should be Irishy. You suck as a human if you put needy people in the situation that if they want help they also have to endure hearing about your religion.

[Irishy]

Donna's onto it ;) : http://donnacorigibson.com/friendsofdon ... tmaseaster

Hmmmmm, maybe we can enjoy that cd on our next long drive :lol: maybe as a punishment to our naughty children!

[Irishy]

That is exactly how it should be Irishy. You suck as a human if you put needy people in the situation that if they want help they also have to endure hearing about your religion.

Agreed. Anything less than this is not charity at all.

[formergothardite]

Agreed. Anything less than this is not charity at all.

It really isn't loving at all, especially when you do it to children.

[Sobeknofret]

It really isn't loving at all, especially when you do it to children.

You should do it because it's the right and compassionate thing to do, not because you hope to proselytize to kids who are essentially being pressured to accept the message so that they can have a toy like every other kid in the country on Christmas. Christians should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because we're trying to "score points" with the Divine.

[JukeboxLucky]

I can see why you guys think this way. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see myself deciding that handing out tracts or telling kids about the gospel is wrong (by the by, I've read the booklet they put in the OCC boxes and going to hell for not being 'saved' isn't actually mentioned). I do think we all agree giving a gift or being 'charitable' hoping you'll lock in a convert is unacceptable and that the real motivation behind giving should be to show love and kindness to a fellow human being.

[formergothardite]

Can you please explain how the Samaritan's purse situation is any different from the one situation I mentioned? Since you thought that one was bad, but OCC isn't? Did you read that site I linked to?

[formergothardite]

Is needing Jesus to be saved and go to heaven mentioned in the book they hand out?

Oh, and giving out a gift, while at the same time trying to convert a child isn't real charity or love or compassion, it is just trying to gain souls for Christ.

[Guest Anonymous]

You should do it because it's the right and compassionate thing to do, not because you hope to proselytize to kids who are essentially being pressured to accept the message so that they can have a toy like every other kid in the country on Christmas. Christians should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because we're trying to "score points" with the Divine.

It's worse than just conditional giving, IMO. OCC actively use the impoverished babies involved in the shoebox scheme to help build churches overseas and give them a foot in the door for year-round evangelism. And they play on the interest people have in the 'shoe box journey' to run rip-off mission trips to keep churches involved and donating year round too. It's a massive industry.

Operation Christmas Child Discovery Teams are 6-8 day opportunities for our OCC

Registered Volunteers to get involved in distributions of shoeboxes in a variety of

settings. Whether it is to see the smile on the child’s face or to get a flavour of the

programme in the distribution countries you can see and experience it all by coming on a

team. These teams are led by SP staff members who have experience both in the

domestic operation of OCC but also in the way it works in our partner countries. These

teams will not only distribute gift boxes to vulnerable children but also explore the role

OCC plays in the local Church, how the programme brings churches together and opens

doors to help them in their work of integral mission and development in their

communities.

[valsa]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't see myself deciding that handing out tracts or telling kids about the gospel is wrong

I don't have kids yet but assholes like you better stay the fuck away from them.

Kids should be off limits.

[formergothardite]

Seriously lucky, if you can't help people, especially children, while not giving them tract or telling them the gospel, you suck as a human. And that is why OCC is so horrible, they can't just help kids they have to throw their religion in too.

[Guest Anonymous]

Is needing Jesus to be saved and go to heaven mentioned in the book they hand out?

Yes. There is a sinner's prayer ..

Dear God, I know I'm a sinner. I made bad choices and did bad things. I'm sorry, please forgive me.

[JukeboxLucky]

Former, I briefly perused the site (sorry, I'm at work now and don't have time for a proper read) and I think it gives incorrect information on how OCC actually operates. My understanding of the OCC approach (this info is from an employee of Samaritan's Purse who has attended/worked at at many of the actual box distributions) is that they put the booklet/tract (that doesn't mention going to hell) in the box and local churches (if there are any in the area) can invite kids to their services. That's as far as the preaching goes. From what you said, your friend had to sit through a lecture or sermon where they were told they were going to hell unless they converted before they were allowed assistance? That's deplorable.

[formergothardite]

I didn't say that, that I said her kids would have to hear how they would go to hell if they weren't Christians if they wanted present/clothes. Kid's tracts and booklets were wrapped and included, the people giving out the gifts telling the kids about Jesus, pretty much just like OCC. So you are cool with forcing parents into that situation? How loving and kind of you.