Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[Guest Anonymous]

Quoted for the mother lovin' truth!!!! :clap:

Also, I just would not want a small child to be told on my behalf that someone had to die a painful death on their behalf because of the bad things they had done. That's just not Good News in my book and not to be associated with the giving of my gifts.

[Witsec7]

We have giving trees in town as a local option. I pick teen girls and I do proselytize to them. With the gift I also include a community resource directory stapled into the inside cover of a small http://slingshot.tao.ca/organizer.php

The resource list includes, info on where to get BC in town free (two community clinics and one public health), std testing, youth services, teen shelter, DV info (local), mental health services (two community clinics and public health), public transit and local resources for foster children who are anticipating aging out of the system.

I consider it practical sabotage.

[SisiL78]

The National Council of Jewish Woman (NCJW) runs a daycare program in the city courthouse for kids whose parents are involved in court cases (kids aren't allowed to be in traffic court or divorce court, and certainly not in criminal courts). I volunteered to help sort and check donated books. Some organization had donated books, many of them overtly religious and proselytizing far right Christian views. Others had tracts hidden in them. It was rather gross. Here was a Jewish organization doing charity work for a secular cause and doing nothing to proselytize its own viewpoint. And it had to deal with donations that were littered with someone else's propaganda.

This is why the whole argument being posed by the right wingers saying that helping the needy should be left to the churches instead of the government. Some religious organizations are great. They offer help to everyone who needs it and expect nothing in return. But, far too many expect you to give them your soul in exchange for their help.

[JukeboxLucky]

I guess I don't see the strings being attached to the gift giving process? Like I said, if it were a requirement that the kid gets 'saved' before they're allowed to pick up a box - that'd be attaching strings to the gift. The way I see it, a Christian organization is going to deliver what they believe is the Christmas message in conjunction with giving Christmas gifts... I just don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to be a part of delivering that particular message, try an organization like Toys for Tots (which is a great organization!) or another gift-giving project that has no sort of religious ties.

[SisiL78]

I guess I don't see the strings being attached to the gift giving process? Like I said, if it were a requirement that the kid gets 'saved' before they're allowed to pick up a box - that'd be attaching strings to the gift. The way I see it, a Christian organization is going to deliver what they believe is the Christmas message in conjunction with giving Christmas gifts... I just don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to be a part of delivering that particular message, try an organization like Toys for Tots (which is a great organization!) or another gift-giving project that has no sort of religious ties.

I think that the original point is that she didn't know that it would be a proselytizing effort when she first signed up. But, now she's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

When a tract is attached to the gift it IS a string, so to speak. Why not just give the kid the gift and be done with it? Why must it include the tract? Why not do something nice for someone else for the sake of doing something nice. Why must you try and change the very essence of that person? Even if they aren't requiring the kids to proclaim their savedness before receiving the gift they are attaching conditions to the gift.

[slickcat79]

I guess I don't see the strings being attached to the gift giving process? Like I said, if it were a requirement that the kid gets 'saved' before they're allowed to pick up a box - that'd be attaching strings to the gift. The way I see it, a Christian organization is going to deliver what they believe is the Christmas message in conjunction with giving Christmas gifts... I just don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to be a part of delivering that particular message, try an organization like Toys for Tots (which is a great organization!) or another gift-giving project that has no sort of religious ties.

Because they're lying. They're presenting their message in a way that ties something special for a child to the idea that they are receiving the gift BECAUSE JESUS. When in reality it's just because individual people (some of whom may not even believe in Jesus) cared enough to buy them a gift. If there were really a god who gave 2 shits, they wouldn't be growing up in poverty in the first place.

[Irishy]

My boys' school does Samaritans purse every year. They also collect toys for a local charity. You can do one, both or none. Several parents have voiced objection to Samaritans purse but the school doesn't care. Its a catholic school (like 90% of schools here), they would hardly endorse the evangelical protestant message. Their position is that it's better for these children to receive a gift (with strings) than no gift at all. Also, they think the boys like the process of making up the shoebox and filling it with things. That our kids get hands on experience of giving. Personally, I donate to the local charity.

ETA the local charity is a daycare centre (secular) for severely under privileged children. Many of whom will have toys donated, only for their parents to sell them to buy heroin. This centre sends children home with sandwiches in their bag every day because these children won't eat until they return the next day. At Christmas they look for clothes, underwear, pyjamas etc.

[JukeboxLucky]

Sisi, I definitely get what you're saying. And I forget who originally posted at this point, but I can see how that'd be a difficult position to find yourself in.

I think most Christians feel it's their ... hmm... mandate (for lack of a better term) to share the gospel message. If Christians believe their Bible, Jesus said for his followers to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all. So should they not share the gospel when giving gifts to the needy, because it will be seen as conditional? Like, sort of sending an, "I'll give you a gift if you listen to my spiel on Jesus," message? I think there are a startling number of Christians who are proselytizing because it's just a 'job' they have to do in order to get people 'converted'. Just something to check off their to-do list. But they miss the fact that they're dealing with human beings who deserve justice, love and compassion.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain (probably not doing a great job and coming off terribly ramble-y) why I think the way I do about this particular matter.

[valsa]

I guess I don't see the strings being attached to the gift giving process?

There are strings attached. To receive a toy from this organization, you must be willing to be preached to. That's a huge string.

The way I see it, a Christian organization is going to deliver what they believe is the Christmas message in conjunction with giving Christmas gifts

So they're going to tell these kids all about the pagan holiday that early Christians co-opted to make it easier to convert people?

[valsa]

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain (probably not doing a great job and coming off terribly ramble-y) why I think the way I do about this particular matter.

We understand why they do it. We just think it's an asshole thing to do.

Like I asked before, would you be okay with Muslims and Wiccans or Satanists preaching to your children if they felt it was their duty?

[dawbs]

Okay, looks like we'll be doing Toys For Tots.

They also do the 'toys for teens' (my husband prefers to go for the teens because he says that they get the short end of the stick--what with it being a lot cuter to buy for an underprivileged 4 yo than 16 YO. And thsi reminds me to redeem my ponits for best-buy cards for thsi year.)

There's also 'child's play' which was founded by the folks at the penny arcade webcomic: http://www.childsplaycharity.org/

Their toys go to (you can see if you have a local one) children's hospitals.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sisi, I definitely get what you're saying. And I forget who originally posted at this point, but I can see how that'd be a difficult position to find yourself in.

I think most Christians feel it's their ... hmm... mandate (for lack of a better term) to share the gospel message. If Christians believe their Bible, Jesus said for his followers to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all. So should they not share the gospel when giving gifts to the needy, because it will be seen as conditional? Like, sort of sending an, "I'll give you a gift if you listen to my spiel on Jesus," message? I think there are a startling number of Christians who are proselytizing because it's just a 'job' they have to do in order to get people 'converted'. Just something to check off their to-do list. But they miss the fact that they're dealing with human beings who deserve justice, love and compassion.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain (probably not doing a great job and coming off terribly ramble-y) why I think the way I do about this particular matter.

At this point you seem not to be owning your beliefs. Do you personally think it is appropriate for you as a pastor to attach your interpretation of the gospel to gifts for poor children?

[JukeboxLucky]

valsa- I'm sure my kids (if I ever have any) will quite often be presented with values and beliefs that are different from the ones my spouse and I will instill in them. It's up to them to decide what they believe and why they believe it. I just hope I'll have been a good example to them of respecting and communicating well with others, regardless of the belief system they adhere to.

[CelticGoddess]

We have giving trees in town as a local option. I pick teen girls and I do proselytize to them. With the gift I also include a community resource directory stapled into the inside cover of a small http://slingshot.tao.ca/organizer.php

The resource list includes, info on where to get BC in town free (two community clinics and one public health), std testing, youth services, teen shelter, DV info (local), mental health services (two community clinics and public health), public transit and local resources for foster children who are anticipating aging out of the system.

I consider it practical sabotage.

I like this.

We donate to Toys for Tots. My BIL's motorcyle club goes on a "toy run" every year, which ends at the Harley dealership, where the toys are dropped off TFT. My sister went for the first time last year and she was amazed at all these bikers with stuffed animals, toys and games strapped to their bikes. (YOu have to donate a toy to be part of the run). Last year there were over 200. IT was amazing.

[JukeboxLucky]

Anniec- my not replying to you comes from my total ignorance of how to directly quote someone on this forum.

Every year I partner with Operation Christmas Child and Samaritan's Purse. I know they present the gospel when they hand out their gifts. So... of course.

[Swamptribe]

I would withdraw my name from participating in the program, and clearly state why. That it is because of the strings attached, that the item is no longer a gift, but a bribe. Which violates the whole point of a giving a gift in the first place. That it is not something that is a charitable act towards others, but is self-serving. I would also mention several secular groups that do something similar, with no strings attached. Then send the e-mail 'reply all'. Because I'm kind of a bitch that way. (Hey, other people could be caught with the same moral quandary). Honestly, speak up.

Yes, I know you'll get the "But salvation is the greatest gift" nonsense. I'd just look at them and respond "I don't think the words 'gift' and 'charity' mean what you think they mean'.

As to feeling guilty about the little boy. Don't, it's not your fault that the program was presented to you as something it was not.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I guess I don't see the strings being attached to the gift giving process? Like I said, if it were a requirement that the kid gets 'saved' before they're allowed to pick up a box - that'd be attaching strings to the gift. The way I see it, a Christian organization is going to deliver what they believe is the Christmas message in conjunction with giving Christmas gifts... I just don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't want to be a part of delivering that particular message, try an organization like Toys for Tots (which is a great organization!) or another gift-giving project that has no sort of religious ties.

Imagine for a moment that the shoe is on the other foot.

Say you're the head of a poor family with a bunch of kids, and you're already feeling bad about the fact that you can't provide new clothes or gifts to your kids. It can really hit the self-esteem, you know? You see your kids every day wanting what the richer kids have but you just can't provide it.

And then into that situation, a group of people come to town and say they're going to hold a party. There will be free gifts. Any kid can come, just put in your kids name. So you do.

And your kids go to the party, and it turns out that it's all about Muslim proselytizing. Yeah, they get the gifts with no strings, but they're told that their lifestyle isn't really quite proper, Jesus is just a prophet like many others, and that their mom should cover her hair, or whatever it is. Their own culture just isn't quite good enough. And maybe they come home and share that message with you. Maybe if you were the "right" sort of person, things would be better. And you feel your kids moving away from you - just a bit, but it's there. And again, the guilt of not being able to avoid the whole thing by buying them gifts yourself.

Targeting kids for proselytizing by giving out presents or a party is low. Teaching people that their cultures are wrong, at a party, is just not okay.

If you want to share your religion, it needs to be on the up and up and made clear that that's what will be happening, to ADULTS, so it can be truly voluntary. If you want to do charity and give gifts, to be true charity it needs to be on those kids' terms. If some one of them wants to talk about Jesus, fine, but you can't go pushing it on non-Christian kids. Charitable giving is about giving what the recipient needs, on the recipient's terms, without thinking about the benefits in it for you (for your organization, or you getting to "do your required duty" of sharing the Gospel, or whatever it is).

And yeah, I know the counter-argument is "but what everyone really needs is the Gospel" but hordes of people don't believe in that, they don't want their kids being taught such things, and so it's underhanded to preach to kids without making it clear to their parents what they're in for. If you're consistently there for someone, without preaching, and eventually they ask about your world outlook, what makes you so generous, or whatever, and you share, then that's different, at least in my book.

[valsa]

valsa- I'm sure my kids (if I ever have any) will quite often be presented with values and beliefs that are different from the ones my spouse and I will instill in them. It's up to them to decide what they believe and why they believe it. I just hope I'll have been a good example to them of respecting and communicating well with others, regardless of the belief system they adhere to.

Are you serious?

There's a difference between casually witnessing the reality that there are non-Christians in the world and being given a gift accompanied by religious propaganda specifically designed by brainwash them into following that religion.

[AddieBelle]

Toys for tots is secular. We donate toys to a church near by also though we are not religious. My husbands family was very poor when they first came here and that church was the only way he and his brothers got any gifts. I guess its his way of giving back.

[Irishy]

As far as I was aware, Samaritans purse just include some literature in the box. There is no lecture or spiel?

[JukeboxLucky]

Irishy - I'm almost positive they just put the tract in the box. That's what I meant as far as a 'presentation' of the gospel.

[formergothardite]

As a former Christian stuff like this, even when I was a Christian was a major turn off. Like I can only do something nice for you if you have to endure me shoving my religion down your throat. I can't just be nice. I think Christians would be more Christian if they would just be nice and help others and then, if they are asked why they want to help others, they can then respond with "I am a follower of Christ and I feel led to help others, would you like to hear more about my faith?" Just help people without telling them about your religion of choice.

A couple of years ago, my sister has a friend who is an athiest and she was going to be forced to choose between having her kids getting presents and much needed clothes all while hearing "you are going to hell" or having them go without. THAT Lucky is the sort of situations you are supporting. And you think that is good?

~We ended up buying her kids' presents and clothes because no mom should have to face this. Too bad most churches suck so much that they won't give kids presents/clothes without also being able to tell them they are going to hell without Jesus~

[JukeboxLucky]

Formergothardite- No. I don't think that's okay. And I don't think supporting Samaritan's Purse (an organization that puts a tract in every box full of gifts) is quite the same thing.

It also kind of sounds like there's an underlying implication that all Christians never do anything nice just for the sake of being nice.

[formergothardite]

If they are putting a tract in there, and I'm guessing it is telling kid that they will go to hell without Jesus, then, no, they aren't being nice just to be nice, they have to make sure every kid who gets toys get a tiny bit of religion shoved on them too.

[Guest Anonymous]

Irishy - I'm almost positive they just put the tract in the box. That's what I meant as far as a 'presentation' of the gospel.

Nope.

It is that time of year again, when hundreds of thousands of people in churches, schools and workplaces all around the UK join together to do something really special. It is to make sure that more than a million children around the world know that they are loved and not forgotten at Christmas, through Operation Christmas Child.

And yet there are those in this country who would prefer that we didn’t have any shoebox gifts to send, particularly from schoolchildren, simply because we are an evangelical Christian organisation. And, as is now customary at this time of year, we see and hear them spreading misinformation regarding Operation Christmas Child.

Samaritan's Purse (the charity behind Operation Christmas Child) seeks to give those that it serves - people from all faiths and none - the opportunity to hear the wonderful, life-giving Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is because we are an evangelical Christian organisation that we love to see children who have received shoebox gifts being invited by the local churches to hear more about Jesus Christ - whose birthday we celebrate, along with the vast majority of people in this country, at Christmas.

There is nothing inappropriate in this, as some would have you believe. They would have you believe that these shoebox gifts are ‘conditional’ on the receiving child signing a ‘pledge’, going to church or attending Christian classes; that we put Christian literature in the shoeboxes, that we are not open about Operation Christmas Child, that we hide certain aspects of the programme.

They would also have you believe that we exploit and manipulate others, innocent children in particular, for our own ends, and that we are insensitive to those of other faiths.

I have some good news for you. These assertions are untrue, nothing could be further from the truth.

Our offer of new life in Jesus Christ is absolutely unconditional, as was the free gift of God's Son that first Christmas time. It is this that we celebrate in the giving of shoebox gifts in 105 countries around the world. We have done this peacefully over 22 years, a true testament to the remarkable way in which we work collaboratively with local communities in peace and harmony alongside one another.

For children especially, Operation Christmas Child is a brilliant example of faith in action. It gives those who grow up in relative wealth the opportunity to participate in selfless giving and show compassion to others - irrespective of creed, colour, religion, sex or ethnicity of either the giver or the receiver.

This is a powerful message for children; and they should have the chance to learn these values at school. It also forms part of a positive education that welcomes diversity, which runs counter to those whose ideology is to teach that religion is harmful and breeds intolerance.

So, should you see or hear anything about Operation Christmas Child that concerns you, before you speak to anyone else, please talk to us or visit our Frequently Asked Questions page.

Tell us what you have heard and why this has concerned you. Then you will know the truth.